Mesaba Redistribution of Snapback Raises

[xjcaptain]

Yeah, the FOs should have told the MEC Captains 10 years ago that they didn't want a blended rate. . . riiiiight.

Except the many many of the FO's on the property today couldn't have done that 10 years ago unless it was at career day in 6th grade, and one of those Captains were speaking at their class.. We have a large number of FO's who came here right out of college (if they went) and were hired at 20 years old. The point is that these pilots do not understand where this "raise" is coming from, because they have no concept what these captains and FO's lost during the bankruptcy....This "raise" is recovery from the issues that happened when they were in high-school. Remember this 4% is not a "Raise", it restores our wages to where they should have already been for years because of the bankruptcy. You are crazy if you think we will recover that and more during the next contract talks. Too many of the younger pilots have never been through contract negotiations, and just assume that if you ask for something you get it. The union should never voluntarily lower any pay scale.

 

[nc1982]

Except the many many of the FO's on the property today couldn't have done that 10 years ago unless it was at career day in 6th grade, and one of those Captains were speaking at their class.. We have a large number of FO's who came here right out of college (if they went) and were hired at 20 years old. The point is that these pilots do not understand where this "raise" is coming from, because they have no concept what these captains and FO's lost during the bankruptcy....This "raise" is recovery from the issues that happened when they were in high-school. Remember this 4% is not a "Raise", it restores our wages to where they should have already been for years because of the bankruptcy. You are crazy if you think we will recover that and more during the next contract talks. Too many of the younger pilots have never been through contract negotiations, and just assume that if you ask for something you get it. The union should never voluntarily lower any pay scale.

Don't worry, us "20 year olds" will all be gone anyway in the next year. The only pilots that will be left on property is the ones from pre-bankruptcy once the saabs are gone. So us young punks will be out of your hair soon. Wait a few months.

 

[Smarta$$]

CA should keep their pay raises and let the FOs fend for themselves

Spoken like a true jacka$$

 

[mesaba13]

I'm sorry that you and others are being furloughed. The attitude problem may not be you but others in your demographic. Go over to the Mesaba pilot board and read about how one in your age group called senior mesaba pilots "lazy lifers who should basically get out of the way for the younger people who want to get their PIC to move on to... ? (I'm not sure where they are in such a hurry to move on to) The author also made a point to decide for all of us that making a career out a regional airline is not acceptable.

 

[Blade Runner]

Call me crazy, but I would rather lose $1500 dollars a year for a coulpe of years to recoupe it on better QOL, and get that money back after the contract is signed. Think about it, your going into contract talks with the company and the company knows that your going try and get double digit raise for FO's and raise for Captians, why would the company spring for more deadhead pay or higher prediem rates or anything else you can think of that you want to improve QOL when your asking for huge pay raises for crews.
sut my 2 cents on the subject

No, I'll call you naive, By what brand of logic do you argue a captains pay increase in the next contract when you are basically telling the company now that we don't need the snap back. I can hear them now "Sure, we'll increase the FO pay, but you overpaid Captains have to give us something in return. After all you had no problem giving up a portion of your snap back before"

 

[Blade Runner]

[

Can you say self-induced food fight, with no winner? We will all be watching from the sidelines---right beside your management!

Spot on, is it no wonder that Management is always way ahead of ALPA? Two steps forward one step back. Always fighting to reclaim lost territory.

 

[CptMurf]

If the LOA were to pass, and FOs get a pay raise, will CAs be reduced from their *current* hourly rates? Or will their portion of the pay raise simply go to higher FO rates?

This is part of the problem Boiler. Anyone hired since 2007 see this simple as a raise we have never had. Anyone here before then see this as money we lost 4 years ago (off our paychecks), with a promise of recouping it. With this LOA that money is gone forever. Add in the fact that well over half the pilot group is either up for a raise, or looking at a downgrade and would like to see more money when they do, and the guys that have fought and paid for the snapbacks lose without a voice.

Redistribution of income at its finest!!

 

[Smarta$$]

This is part of the problem Boiler. Anyone hired since 2007 see this simple as a raise we have never had. Anyone here before then see this as money we lost 4 years ago (off our paychecks), with a promise of recouping it. With this LOA that money is gone forever. Add in the fact that well over half the pilot group is either up for a raise, or looking at a downgrade and would like to see more money when they do, and the guys that have fought and paid for the snapbacks lose without a voice.

Redistribution of income at its finest!!

So, your captains are paid industry average, or close to it. Your FO's are paid well below industry average.

If Mesaba captains made 300 per hour and FOs made 1, would it still be inappropriate redistribution of income to make it 299 to 2? By your logic, even in contract negotiations, if the ratio of CA to FO pay is changed one iota, you are a socialist.

 

[CptMurf]

So, your captains are paid industry average, or close to it. Your FO's are paid well below industry average.

If Mesaba captains made 300 per hour and FOs made 1, would it still be inappropriate redistribution of income to make it 299 to 2? By your logic, even in contract negotiations, if the ratio of CA to FO pay is changed one iota, you are a socialist.

So by your logic, there will be no more gains in negotiations with management. And the only ways to get raises will be by losses from fellow employees. Seems you won't be happy until both CA and FO make 150 an hour by your numbers. Actually, im a capitalist, your idea seems more socialist.

 

[Smarta$$]

So by your logic, there will be no more gains in negotiations with management. And the only ways to get raises will be by losses from fellow employees. Seems you won't be happy until both CA and FO make 150 an hour by your numbers. Actually, im a capitalist, your idea seems more socialist.

I did not say you were a socialist. I said you would call someone a socialist if they wanted to change pay to 299 to 2.

Of course you can make gains in negotiations. You should raise everyone's pay. The point is, you believe that no matter how lopsided the compensation is, as long as it benefits you, it is OK. As soon as the union wants to change the compensation ratios to those more close to the industry standards, you cry redistribution of wealth.

If the situation was reversed, and FOs were paid above industry average while CAs were paid less than industry average, you would be DEMANDING them to redistribute the income.

 

[Blade Runner]

If the situation was reversed, and FOs were paid above industry average while CAs were paid less than industry average, you would be DEMANDING them to redistribute the income.

You sir/mam, are the inevitable consequence of ALAP's destructive policy of successfully driving wedges between pilot groups, and the reason for my first post on this thread.
It is fundamentally wrong to negotiate with the dues payers for better pay and work conditions instead of the Company. Why you don't get this remains in part a systemic problem within ALPA.
You want fairness? Then negotiate a better pay rate with the people who sign your paycheck. Has ALPA now turned our FOs into a bunch of PANHANDLERS !!! Should the Captain after every trip pull out his check book to compensate these FO's just to make it fair? Has ALPA lost its collective mind?
The FO is a professional member of our crew and deserves ALPA's attention as much as any Captain.Therefore, negotiate with the Company for long term wage stability, and not this Mickey Mouse Band-Aid fix that in the end will drag us all down.

 

[Speedtape]

You sir/mam, are the inevitable consequence of ALAP's destructive policy of successfully driving wedges between pilot groups, and the reason for my first post on this thread.
It is fundamentally wrong to negotiate with the dues payers for better pay and work conditions instead of the Company. Why you don't get this remains in part a systemic problem within ALPA.
You want fairness? Then negotiate a better pay rate with the people who sign your paycheck. Has ALPA now turned our FOs into a bunch of PANHANDLERS !!! Should the Captain after every trip pull out his check book to compensate these FO's just to make it fair? Has ALPA lost its collective mind?
The FO is a professional member of our crew and deserves ALPA's attention as much as any Captain.Therefore, negotiate with the Company for long term wage stability, and not this Mickey Mouse Band-Aid fix that in the end will drag us all down.

And on top of that, you are conditioning, teaching, telling, sharing with the Management that you are willing to try to correct the wrongs that you negotiated with them in the past.

Suggestion: Quit trying to reslice the medium pizza that they gave you. It will only create a wedge in you pilot group trying to reconcile previous mistakes. Instead, all pilots pull on the same end of the rope, negotiate and acquire a Jumbo pizza, then do a fair and equitable distribution (good luck on that one).

 

[Smarta$$]

You sir/mam, are the inevitable consequence of ALAP's destructive policy of successfully driving wedges between pilot groups, and the reason for my first post on this thread.
It is fundamentally wrong to negotiate with the dues payers for better pay and work conditions instead of the Company. Why you don't get this remains in part a systemic problem within ALPA.
You want fairness? Then negotiate a better pay rate with the people who sign your paycheck. Has ALPA now turned our FOs into a bunch of PANHANDLERS !!! Should the Captain after every trip pull out his check book to compensate these FO's just to make it fair? Has ALPA lost its collective mind?
The FO is a professional member of our crew and deserves ALPA's attention as much as any Captain.Therefore, negotiate with the Company for long term wage stability, and not this Mickey Mouse Band-Aid fix that in the end will drag us all down.

You act as if it was the company that decided the CAs would be paid average and the FOs under average without any input from the union at the time. That assertion from you shows your ignorance of how wages are negotiated. The union at the time had much to do with the distribution of wages between CA and FO. The NC and the MEC at that time decided to put more of the pizza in front of CAs and less in front of FOs. And if as you suggest, this can is kicked down the road till the next negotiating cycle, more negotiating capital will be used up in the process to get the FOs the pay they deserve, and the union will have less left over to give you any improvements.

I am not saying this is the only way to deal with the situation, but you dismissing outright as an inappropriate redistribution of wealth is dishonest. Because you would be demanding the redistribution if the table was turned and you were not the benefactor.

 

[Smarta$$]

And on top of that, you are conditioning, teaching, telling, sharing with the Management that you are willing to try to correct the wrongs that you negotiated with them in the past.

Suggestion: Quit trying to reslice the medium pizza that they gave you. It will only create a wedge in you pilot group trying to reconcile previous mistakes. Instead, all pilots pull on the same end of the rope, negotiate and acquire a Jumbo pizza, then do a fair and equitable distribution (good luck on that one).

If I know your type, and I am sure I do, if the union could actually get a Jumbo pizza out of the company, you would demand that 80% of it went to benefit you with any argument you could come up with.

It is very basic, Mesaba's pay, like pinnacle's is imbalanced more than most other regional airlines toward CAs. And any attempt to re-balance to industry norms is met with claims of socialism and redistribution.

If the balance is inappropriate to begin with, then redistribution is appropriate. And suggesting that you wait until management finally gets around to agreeing to a new contract 5 or more years down the road is a stall tactic designed to maintain the status quo that benefits YOU and those like YOU.

It is shamelessly selfish and transparent. And I don't even work there.

 

[CptMurf]

If I know your type, and I am sure I do, if the union could actually get a Jumbo pizza out of the company, you would demand that 80% of it went to benefit you with any argument you could come up with.

It is very basic, Mesaba's pay, like pinnacle's is imbalanced more than most other regional airlines toward CAs. And any attempt to re-balance to industry norms is met with claims of socialism and redistribution.

If the balance is inappropriate to begin with, then redistribution is appropriate. And suggesting that you wait until management finally gets around to agreeing to a new contract 5 or more years down the road is a stall tactic designed to maintain the status quo that benefits YOU and those like YOU.

It is shamelessly selfish and transparent. And I don't even work there.

The FO pay problem with our contract is due entirely to the blended rate. We we signed the contract the FO pay was over 60% of the CA pay. The reason this percentage has lessened is only due to the shift in fleet.

Pinnacle's problem is very similar, when they signed the contract in 99, they didn't have any CRJs...only Saabs. I can remember statements of, "Well the jet rate isn't so great, but we don't have any" on a crew bus that summer.

In fact, I would almost state that every contract is imbalanced or broken by the time it reaches its term. The industry changes, inflation happens, and fleets change. That is why we try to keep the contract lengths relatively short. Our (XJ) original contract is/was due to be up by now. It is 6 years old.

When the contract was up for vote, I was to receive a substantially larger percentage of increased pay than the CAs. I believed that I would receive that I would receive the rates in the TA for the length of the contract, so I voted yes. When I was forced into a TA in the BK, I felt that we had saved all that we could. I also felt, as most, that we would be receiving larger aircraft and would receive the snapbacks for the duration of the extended contract, so I voted yes. Had I known of the BK, I would have never voted for the contract. Had I known of this LOA, I would have never voted for the concessionary contract. The senior pilot group here has paid over and over again, we are tired of being told it is our responsiblity to give. This LOA only poliferates the race to the bottom. It shows management that they have achieved an acceptable employee cost for all pilots and that from now on we can just reallocate our pay. It also show that for 6 years we have been operating with an FO group that was making more on average than their peers, but when the fleet changes they call foul. Only this time, instead of having anger towards mgmt., and pushing them to raise pay and subsequently the "bar", we will just whine and take pay from fellow employees.