Mesaba Redistribution of Snapback Raises

[Blade Runner]

[

Can you say self-induced food fight, with no winner? We will all be watching from the sidelines---right beside your management!

Spot on, is it no wonder that Management is always way ahead of ALPA? Two steps forward one step back. Always fighting to reclaim lost territory.

 

[CptMurf]

If the LOA were to pass, and FOs get a pay raise, will CAs be reduced from their *current* hourly rates? Or will their portion of the pay raise simply go to higher FO rates?

This is part of the problem Boiler. Anyone hired since 2007 see this simple as a raise we have never had. Anyone here before then see this as money we lost 4 years ago (off our paychecks), with a promise of recouping it. With this LOA that money is gone forever. Add in the fact that well over half the pilot group is either up for a raise, or looking at a downgrade and would like to see more money when they do, and the guys that have fought and paid for the snapbacks lose without a voice.

Redistribution of income at its finest!!

 

[Smarta$$]

This is part of the problem Boiler. Anyone hired since 2007 see this simple as a raise we have never had. Anyone here before then see this as money we lost 4 years ago (off our paychecks), with a promise of recouping it. With this LOA that money is gone forever. Add in the fact that well over half the pilot group is either up for a raise, or looking at a downgrade and would like to see more money when they do, and the guys that have fought and paid for the snapbacks lose without a voice.

Redistribution of income at its finest!!

So, your captains are paid industry average, or close to it. Your FO's are paid well below industry average.

If Mesaba captains made 300 per hour and FOs made 1, would it still be inappropriate redistribution of income to make it 299 to 2? By your logic, even in contract negotiations, if the ratio of CA to FO pay is changed one iota, you are a socialist.

 

[CptMurf]

So, your captains are paid industry average, or close to it. Your FO's are paid well below industry average.

If Mesaba captains made 300 per hour and FOs made 1, would it still be inappropriate redistribution of income to make it 299 to 2? By your logic, even in contract negotiations, if the ratio of CA to FO pay is changed one iota, you are a socialist.

So by your logic, there will be no more gains in negotiations with management. And the only ways to get raises will be by losses from fellow employees. Seems you won't be happy until both CA and FO make 150 an hour by your numbers. Actually, im a capitalist, your idea seems more socialist.

 

[Smarta$$]

So by your logic, there will be no more gains in negotiations with management. And the only ways to get raises will be by losses from fellow employees. Seems you won't be happy until both CA and FO make 150 an hour by your numbers. Actually, im a capitalist, your idea seems more socialist.

I did not say you were a socialist. I said you would call someone a socialist if they wanted to change pay to 299 to 2.

Of course you can make gains in negotiations. You should raise everyone's pay. The point is, you believe that no matter how lopsided the compensation is, as long as it benefits you, it is OK. As soon as the union wants to change the compensation ratios to those more close to the industry standards, you cry redistribution of wealth.

If the situation was reversed, and FOs were paid above industry average while CAs were paid less than industry average, you would be DEMANDING them to redistribute the income.

 

[Blade Runner]

If the situation was reversed, and FOs were paid above industry average while CAs were paid less than industry average, you would be DEMANDING them to redistribute the income.

You sir/mam, are the inevitable consequence of ALAP's destructive policy of successfully driving wedges between pilot groups, and the reason for my first post on this thread.
It is fundamentally wrong to negotiate with the dues payers for better pay and work conditions instead of the Company. Why you don't get this remains in part a systemic problem within ALPA.
You want fairness? Then negotiate a better pay rate with the people who sign your paycheck. Has ALPA now turned our FOs into a bunch of PANHANDLERS !!! Should the Captain after every trip pull out his check book to compensate these FO's just to make it fair? Has ALPA lost its collective mind?
The FO is a professional member of our crew and deserves ALPA's attention as much as any Captain.Therefore, negotiate with the Company for long term wage stability, and not this Mickey Mouse Band-Aid fix that in the end will drag us all down.

 

[Speedtape]

You sir/mam, are the inevitable consequence of ALAP's destructive policy of successfully driving wedges between pilot groups, and the reason for my first post on this thread.
It is fundamentally wrong to negotiate with the dues payers for better pay and work conditions instead of the Company. Why you don't get this remains in part a systemic problem within ALPA.
You want fairness? Then negotiate a better pay rate with the people who sign your paycheck. Has ALPA now turned our FOs into a bunch of PANHANDLERS !!! Should the Captain after every trip pull out his check book to compensate these FO's just to make it fair? Has ALPA lost its collective mind?
The FO is a professional member of our crew and deserves ALPA's attention as much as any Captain.Therefore, negotiate with the Company for long term wage stability, and not this Mickey Mouse Band-Aid fix that in the end will drag us all down.

And on top of that, you are conditioning, teaching, telling, sharing with the Management that you are willing to try to correct the wrongs that you negotiated with them in the past.

Suggestion: Quit trying to reslice the medium pizza that they gave you. It will only create a wedge in you pilot group trying to reconcile previous mistakes. Instead, all pilots pull on the same end of the rope, negotiate and acquire a Jumbo pizza, then do a fair and equitable distribution (good luck on that one).

 

[Smarta$$]

You sir/mam, are the inevitable consequence of ALAP's destructive policy of successfully driving wedges between pilot groups, and the reason for my first post on this thread.
It is fundamentally wrong to negotiate with the dues payers for better pay and work conditions instead of the Company. Why you don't get this remains in part a systemic problem within ALPA.
You want fairness? Then negotiate a better pay rate with the people who sign your paycheck. Has ALPA now turned our FOs into a bunch of PANHANDLERS !!! Should the Captain after every trip pull out his check book to compensate these FO's just to make it fair? Has ALPA lost its collective mind?
The FO is a professional member of our crew and deserves ALPA's attention as much as any Captain.Therefore, negotiate with the Company for long term wage stability, and not this Mickey Mouse Band-Aid fix that in the end will drag us all down.

You act as if it was the company that decided the CAs would be paid average and the FOs under average without any input from the union at the time. That assertion from you shows your ignorance of how wages are negotiated. The union at the time had much to do with the distribution of wages between CA and FO. The NC and the MEC at that time decided to put more of the pizza in front of CAs and less in front of FOs. And if as you suggest, this can is kicked down the road till the next negotiating cycle, more negotiating capital will be used up in the process to get the FOs the pay they deserve, and the union will have less left over to give you any improvements.

I am not saying this is the only way to deal with the situation, but you dismissing outright as an inappropriate redistribution of wealth is dishonest. Because you would be demanding the redistribution if the table was turned and you were not the benefactor.

 

[Smarta$$]

And on top of that, you are conditioning, teaching, telling, sharing with the Management that you are willing to try to correct the wrongs that you negotiated with them in the past.

Suggestion: Quit trying to reslice the medium pizza that they gave you. It will only create a wedge in you pilot group trying to reconcile previous mistakes. Instead, all pilots pull on the same end of the rope, negotiate and acquire a Jumbo pizza, then do a fair and equitable distribution (good luck on that one).

If I know your type, and I am sure I do, if the union could actually get a Jumbo pizza out of the company, you would demand that 80% of it went to benefit you with any argument you could come up with.

It is very basic, Mesaba's pay, like pinnacle's is imbalanced more than most other regional airlines toward CAs. And any attempt to re-balance to industry norms is met with claims of socialism and redistribution.

If the balance is inappropriate to begin with, then redistribution is appropriate. And suggesting that you wait until management finally gets around to agreeing to a new contract 5 or more years down the road is a stall tactic designed to maintain the status quo that benefits YOU and those like YOU.

It is shamelessly selfish and transparent. And I don't even work there.

 

[CptMurf]

If I know your type, and I am sure I do, if the union could actually get a Jumbo pizza out of the company, you would demand that 80% of it went to benefit you with any argument you could come up with.

It is very basic, Mesaba's pay, like pinnacle's is imbalanced more than most other regional airlines toward CAs. And any attempt to re-balance to industry norms is met with claims of socialism and redistribution.

If the balance is inappropriate to begin with, then redistribution is appropriate. And suggesting that you wait until management finally gets around to agreeing to a new contract 5 or more years down the road is a stall tactic designed to maintain the status quo that benefits YOU and those like YOU.

It is shamelessly selfish and transparent. And I don't even work there.

The FO pay problem with our contract is due entirely to the blended rate. We we signed the contract the FO pay was over 60% of the CA pay. The reason this percentage has lessened is only due to the shift in fleet.

Pinnacle's problem is very similar, when they signed the contract in 99, they didn't have any CRJs...only Saabs. I can remember statements of, "Well the jet rate isn't so great, but we don't have any" on a crew bus that summer.

In fact, I would almost state that every contract is imbalanced or broken by the time it reaches its term. The industry changes, inflation happens, and fleets change. That is why we try to keep the contract lengths relatively short. Our (XJ) original contract is/was due to be up by now. It is 6 years old.

When the contract was up for vote, I was to receive a substantially larger percentage of increased pay than the CAs. I believed that I would receive that I would receive the rates in the TA for the length of the contract, so I voted yes. When I was forced into a TA in the BK, I felt that we had saved all that we could. I also felt, as most, that we would be receiving larger aircraft and would receive the snapbacks for the duration of the extended contract, so I voted yes. Had I known of the BK, I would have never voted for the contract. Had I known of this LOA, I would have never voted for the concessionary contract. The senior pilot group here has paid over and over again, we are tired of being told it is our responsiblity to give. This LOA only poliferates the race to the bottom. It shows management that they have achieved an acceptable employee cost for all pilots and that from now on we can just reallocate our pay. It also show that for 6 years we have been operating with an FO group that was making more on average than their peers, but when the fleet changes they call foul. Only this time, instead of having anger towards mgmt., and pushing them to raise pay and subsequently the "bar", we will just whine and take pay from fellow employees.

 

[CaptainJaguar]

OH GOD! plain and simple! Mesaba and Pinchnickle suck! They are a joke of an airline made up of good chumps and chumpets just trying to make a living and make it in this sh*t career. Mesaba guys, keep fighting. But in the end you know how this is going to end. Why? well b/c your airline sucks due to it's shi**y management and useless ALPA reps. There! now lets all get back to work.

 

[WayBack]

Ah yes, the typical "ALPA is looking out for the FO's again" speech. Only those FO's will later be told "We did everything we could. We just couldn't get you guys anymore money. Actually FO's will be taking a pay cut. Management promised all MEC members new BMW's if we signed on this. Sorry, we're more important than you".

 

[xjhawk]

I wont read anymore than the first page- But here I go

A little history, the same MEC leadership that promised greater FO pay rates in the 04' contract (never happened) and gave the greater dollar amount (same %) to the Captains in the bankruptcy snap backs are the ones who proposed this. On the surface it seems like the right thing to do but it is deeper than that. Yes it would be correcting mistakes THEY made back then. But it is once again taking something that was promised from part of our pilot group! I will not even get into the long term money lost by anyone spending any time as a captain at Mesaba. Or the fact that when negotiations do start, the company will not give any pay increases to the captains since we obviously make enough to "give" away to the FO's. They will want the captains to give up more I can assure you on that.

I am not a "greedy captain" as some of our more vocal FO's have called any captain who voices opposition to this. I am a captain that may very well be an FO again within the year and am still against this. I was also a FO at this company for over 4 years, never passed on any upgrade and have been on reserve for about 7 years at this company. THIS IS A BAD IDEA. I never called our captains greedy when our MEC left the FO's pay in trade for gains for captains and scope (really?????) and when many of our most senior captains kept their top rated pay through bankruptcy because of a training snafu.

I would like to spout off about that guy who is complaining about captains not wanting to give up their raise who was hired with sub 500 hour experience, went straight to the 900 and complained that their had to sit on reserve for an entire month when they were hired. Oh and they are pissed that our upgrade times are not under three months anymore and they are also pissed because they paid their dues and deserve an upgrade since they have been an FO for almost two years! No I will not say that The truth of the matter is that what I described is a very small minority and most of our FO's are awesome people who deserve more money than what our last contracts got for them (us). But this proposal is wrong. Fix it in negotiations!

 

[SEVEN]

Don't worry guys...this joke of a proposal will never even make it to vote. This train has almost derailed.

 

[Blade Runner]

Don't worry guys...this joke of a proposal will never even make it to vote. This train has almost derailed.

I agree, the bigger issue here is ALPA's incompetence. We are stuck in the proverbial Doldrums.

 

[xjhawk]

Look at it this way the head guy in our union is the one who submitted the proposal. The guys who vote on this (not us, remember the "vote" we got was a survey) are half FO's. It would only take 1 captain to swing the vote (if it works the way I think it will). Then as they did before in other contracts, Mark will ask for everyone to stand together and everyone vote yes to show solidairity. I have talked to my rep and I trust him to vote how the pilots he represents feel about this proposal. I do not think there is as much support for this proposal on the captains side as they are making it seem. I have sat on ready reserve 4 times this month and have not encountered 1 captain who was for this proposal.

 

[Twisted Mind]

Jet CA's are making 80,000 sitting right next to a FO making 20,000. Doing nearly the same job under the same conditions. Airlines have been sucessful in upgrading people in 6 months. And you are worried that the company is now going think you are over paid?

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

For all the guys who say: I had to walk three miles uphill in four feet of snow to get to my plane when I was an FO - deal with it. There's always going to be someone who got on with less time than you, someone who got a quicker upgrade, etc.

The pendulum swings. And you're not going to stop it.

The only thing you need to look at is parity. That's it.

 

[Monster Buck]

This isn't about who is a ca or fo right now, when did they get to Mesaba, who paid the most dues, blah blah blah. It is about which pay scale, FO or CA, is the furthest off(below) industry average. Every contract we see comparisons about what is being asked for and what is industry average. You need to look more broad and remember how pissed each person felt in the last contract when Mesaba pilots wanted Comair rates and kept getting Mesa rates thrown in their face by management. Bring up the one that is the lowest in comparison to the industry, keeping in mind that the Saabs are going bye bye. The fo scale is a crj scale not a Saab scale for the future.