Mesaba Redistribution of Snapback Raises

[CptOver]

So, although this topic is old around XJ, it never surfaced here.

Our MEC has proposed an LOA to reduce the CA Dec. 1, 2010 raise, in an effort to increase FO pay. This is a snapback raise from our BK and equals 4% for all pilots. Our FO pay has been a blended rate since 1996, and over that time made our Saab FOs the highest paid turboprop FOs in the industry (per seats). Now that our fleet has shifted, there are less Saab FOs than jet FOs and the majority of our FOs are making less money than their peers.

So my question for the rest of the industry....

Should we...
A) Reduce all CA pay in Dec., to bring FO pay up to about industry avg. for CRJ200/900 (even higher paid for SF340).
B) Wait 1 year till contract negotiations to try increase FO pay through negotiations with Mgmt.

Discuss...

 

[Mike man]

I think option B should be more like...

B) Wait 1 year until contract negotiations to negotiate a new F/O pay scale, only to have the company drag out negotiations for three years then file for mediation, have that drag out for three years and once a contract is settled on the F/O pay will only be slightly more than it is today.

So I pick option A

 

[Blade Runner]

I think option B should be more like...

B) Wait 1 year until contract negotiations to negotiate a new F/O pay scale, only to have the company drag out negotiations for three years then file for mediation, have that drag out for three years and once a contract is settled on the F/O pay will only be slightly more than it is today.

So I pick option A

Got to love ALPA, now that they have successfully driven a wedge between the pilot groups of bothMainline and the Regionals, they are wasting no time in doing the same between Captains and FOs. Nothing like telling the Company our Captains are really over paid. Lets see, 200 hour first officer lands a job, not in a 19 seat Metroliner (which by the way he/she could never handle), but a 76 seat Crj900. Add to that, they have, at the tender age of 20 something a guaranteed flow thru to Delta. Seems to me the earnings potential of these FO's far exceed the Captains. But it is all about the redistribution of wealth these days. Support ALPA PAC NOT!!

 

[planejockey]

Blade, that was way off!

I am not a supporter of ALPA but when you say stupid crap like "Seems to me the earnings potential of these FO's far exceed the Captains" you need to be schooled.

1. No one should get a pay cut.
2. No one is flying a Metro anymore so if you can find one operating for a good company, I am sure that 20 something guy will take that job.
3. FLOWs never work for the regional guys, it on the other hand works fine for the majors.
Ex.. COEX in 2001 when tons of CAL guys flowed back and COEX dudes hit the street. I think only 200 guys ever flowed up to CAL from the deal while CAL sent 500 plus.
EGL....need I say more?

BTW it is not a redistribution of wealth if you are giving it away for a small pay raise and a better hotel in Paris. Call it what it is and not blame Obama for it.

So please take your I am better than the RJ guys attitude back to the 90s. If you are a major guy, please realize that you are the reason there are 1000s of RJ out there. The regional giys want you to keep your scope dont throw it away and blame the guy who was hired because of your vote.

 

[Mike man]

So please take your I am better than the RJ guys attitude back to the 90s.

If you keep picking the scab it will never heal.

You are the only one who said anything about better than RJ guys...ever hear of a Freudian slip?

 

[DGdaPilot]

This sounds like something only a true brotherhood of pilots would do for each other. Shame on Mesaba ALPA! <sarcasm>

Seems like a great idea to me.

 

[Blade Runner]

Blade, that was way off!

I am not a supporter of ALPA but when you say stupid crap like "Seems to me the earnings potential of these FO's far exceed the Captains" you need to be schooled.

1. No one should get a pay cut.
2. No one is flying a Metro anymore so if you can find one operating for a good company, I am sure that 20 something guy will take that job.
3. FLOWs never work for the regional guys, it on the other hand works fine for the majors.
Ex.. COEX in 2001 when tons of CAL guys flowed back and COEX dudes hit the street. I think only 200 guys ever flowed up to CAL from the deal while CAL sent 500 plus.
EGL....need I say more?

BTW it is not a redistribution of wealth if you are giving it away for a small pay raise and a better hotel in Paris. Call it what it is and not blame Obama for it.

So please take your I am better than the RJ guys attitude back to the 90s. If you are a major guy, please realize that you are the reason there are 1000s of RJ out there. The regional giys want you to keep your scope dont throw it away and blame the guy who was hired because of your vote.

No one should get a pay cut, we agree on that point. FO's deserve more pay no doubt. I was too harsh in my description, I apologize. Thanks for pointing that out.

Second, I did fly the metro and worked part time nights at McDonalds. Never did I ask or expect ALPA to take money from Captains and give it to me. Nor would I have ever supported such a thing. I did however, expect ALPA to bargain with the Company to better our wages and conditions. Not to bargain with our Captains to better our wages and conditions. That sir/mam, is my point here.

The XJ flow does not work like Compass' flow for example. When one flows up only one can flow back. Your point is invalid in this case. The Captains and FO's will flow to Delta unless they say no. Yes they must be Captains but if movement does occur it will go quickly with projected retirements. that means these youngsters will retire Captains on wide body jets. Do the math.

I'm better than the RJ guys? OK, you've lost me. How did this become a question of scope? OH, I KNOW, that wedge ALPA so cunningly drove between Mainline and the Regionals. Apparently it has divide both you and I also. Let's not let that happen again, agreed?

 

[BoilerUP]

If the LOA were to pass, and FOs get a pay raise, will CAs be reduced from their *current* hourly rates? Or will their portion of the pay raise simply go to higher FO rates?

 

[Northern Lights]

If the LOA were to pass, and FOs get a pay raise, will CAs be reduced from their *current* hourly rates? Or will their portion of the pay raise simply go to higher FO rates?

Everyone gets raises. The original snapbacks were 4% for CAs and FOs. The proposed plan is supposedly "cost neutral" and would mean a 2.4% raise for captains and approx 8.4% raise for FOs.

 

[Raoul Duke]

CA should keep their pay raises and let the FOs fend for themselves

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

CA should keep their pay raises and let the FOs fend for themselves

Yeah, the FOs should have told the MEC Captains 10 years ago that they didn't want a blended rate. . . riiiiight.

 

[lindsaya99]

Give it to the FOs. A few hundred bucks a month extra means much more to someone making 30-something thousand a year.

 

[Speedtape]

Everyone gets raises. The original snapbacks were 4% for CAs and FOs. The proposed plan is supposedly "cost neutral" and would mean a 2.4% raise for captains and approx 8.4% raise for FOs.

If all else fails---K.I.S.S.
Keep the snapback plan in place!

Can you say self-induced food fight, with no winner? We will all be watching from the sidelines---right beside your management!

 

[coonass]

the XJ alpa is not driving a wedge between the pilots. I think the union has a chance to up the FO pay rates before there section 6 in 2012. Its alot easier to have the FO's get a 8.5% raise now and when section 6 starts get another 8% raise after section 6, than ask for a double digit percent raise for FO's during section 6. I would rather give up 1.6 % out of 4% of my raise that I havent seen yet to help me get better QOL in section 6. Call me crazy, but I would rather lose $1500 dollars a year for a coulpe of years to recoupe it on better QOL, and get that money back after the contract is signed. Think about it, your going into contract talks with the company and the company knows that your going try and get double digit raise for FO's and raise for Captians, why would the company spring for more deadhead pay or higher prediem rates or anything else you can think of that you want to improve QOL when your asking for huge pay raises for crews.

By doing this now, this would also help all the other airlines that are in contract talks. now managment cant use the mesaba FO rates against there own FO's. Just ask 9E guys if there managment didnt try to thrust the mesaba FO rates on there FO's. I think it is just a way to fix the rates to help mesaba get a new contract under 5 years and to help all the companies in section 6 to help bring up there pay rates of FO's. I think its just away to help the industry as a whole.

jsut my 2 cents on the subject

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

If all else fails---K.I.S.S.
Keep the snapback plan in place!

Can you say self-induced food fight, with no winner? We will all be watching from the sidelines---right beside your management!

I was going to contest some of your ideas in your original post, but they're gone.

Many XJ Capts were FOs during 2001-2004 when there were no upgrades. Many probably remember how much it sucked. I hope that more are thinking it would have been easier if we had an industry standard pay and not the sub-par Avro pay that we had.

I remember a road show where I asked why we didn't ditch the blended rate. "Too complicated" was the answer. As if weighing trip rigs vs min day was a simple matter of counting fingers and toes. . .

Parity is fair - regardless of the time frame. Don't keep screwing the FOs because it's a "short term" position. 5 years isn't short term for a regional FO.

 

[xjcaptain]

Yeah, the FOs should have told the MEC Captains 10 years ago that they didn't want a blended rate. . . riiiiight.

Except the many many of the FO's on the property today couldn't have done that 10 years ago unless it was at career day in 6th grade, and one of those Captains were speaking at their class.. We have a large number of FO's who came here right out of college (if they went) and were hired at 20 years old. The point is that these pilots do not understand where this "raise" is coming from, because they have no concept what these captains and FO's lost during the bankruptcy....This "raise" is recovery from the issues that happened when they were in high-school. Remember this 4% is not a "Raise", it restores our wages to where they should have already been for years because of the bankruptcy. You are crazy if you think we will recover that and more during the next contract talks. Too many of the younger pilots have never been through contract negotiations, and just assume that if you ask for something you get it. The union should never voluntarily lower any pay scale.

 

[nc1982]

Except the many many of the FO's on the property today couldn't have done that 10 years ago unless it was at career day in 6th grade, and one of those Captains were speaking at their class.. We have a large number of FO's who came here right out of college (if they went) and were hired at 20 years old. The point is that these pilots do not understand where this "raise" is coming from, because they have no concept what these captains and FO's lost during the bankruptcy....This "raise" is recovery from the issues that happened when they were in high-school. Remember this 4% is not a "Raise", it restores our wages to where they should have already been for years because of the bankruptcy. You are crazy if you think we will recover that and more during the next contract talks. Too many of the younger pilots have never been through contract negotiations, and just assume that if you ask for something you get it. The union should never voluntarily lower any pay scale.

Don't worry, us "20 year olds" will all be gone anyway in the next year. The only pilots that will be left on property is the ones from pre-bankruptcy once the saabs are gone. So us young punks will be out of your hair soon. Wait a few months.

 

[Smarta$$]

CA should keep their pay raises and let the FOs fend for themselves

Spoken like a true jacka$$

 

[mesaba13]

I'm sorry that you and others are being furloughed. The attitude problem may not be you but others in your demographic. Go over to the Mesaba pilot board and read about how one in your age group called senior mesaba pilots "lazy lifers who should basically get out of the way for the younger people who want to get their PIC to move on to... ? (I'm not sure where they are in such a hurry to move on to) The author also made a point to decide for all of us that making a career out a regional airline is not acceptable.

 

[Blade Runner]

Call me crazy, but I would rather lose $1500 dollars a year for a coulpe of years to recoupe it on better QOL, and get that money back after the contract is signed. Think about it, your going into contract talks with the company and the company knows that your going try and get double digit raise for FO's and raise for Captians, why would the company spring for more deadhead pay or higher prediem rates or anything else you can think of that you want to improve QOL when your asking for huge pay raises for crews.
sut my 2 cents on the subject

No, I'll call you naive, By what brand of logic do you argue a captains pay increase in the next contract when you are basically telling the company now that we don't need the snap back. I can hear them now "Sure, we'll increase the FO pay, but you overpaid Captains have to give us something in return. After all you had no problem giving up a portion of your snap back before"

 

[Blade Runner]

[

Can you say self-induced food fight, with no winner? We will all be watching from the sidelines---right beside your management!

Spot on, is it no wonder that Management is always way ahead of ALPA? Two steps forward one step back. Always fighting to reclaim lost territory.

 

[CptMurf]

If the LOA were to pass, and FOs get a pay raise, will CAs be reduced from their *current* hourly rates? Or will their portion of the pay raise simply go to higher FO rates?

This is part of the problem Boiler. Anyone hired since 2007 see this simple as a raise we have never had. Anyone here before then see this as money we lost 4 years ago (off our paychecks), with a promise of recouping it. With this LOA that money is gone forever. Add in the fact that well over half the pilot group is either up for a raise, or looking at a downgrade and would like to see more money when they do, and the guys that have fought and paid for the snapbacks lose without a voice.

Redistribution of income at its finest!!

 

[Smarta$$]

This is part of the problem Boiler. Anyone hired since 2007 see this simple as a raise we have never had. Anyone here before then see this as money we lost 4 years ago (off our paychecks), with a promise of recouping it. With this LOA that money is gone forever. Add in the fact that well over half the pilot group is either up for a raise, or looking at a downgrade and would like to see more money when they do, and the guys that have fought and paid for the snapbacks lose without a voice.

Redistribution of income at its finest!!

So, your captains are paid industry average, or close to it. Your FO's are paid well below industry average.

If Mesaba captains made 300 per hour and FOs made 1, would it still be inappropriate redistribution of income to make it 299 to 2? By your logic, even in contract negotiations, if the ratio of CA to FO pay is changed one iota, you are a socialist.

 

[CptMurf]

So, your captains are paid industry average, or close to it. Your FO's are paid well below industry average.

If Mesaba captains made 300 per hour and FOs made 1, would it still be inappropriate redistribution of income to make it 299 to 2? By your logic, even in contract negotiations, if the ratio of CA to FO pay is changed one iota, you are a socialist.

So by your logic, there will be no more gains in negotiations with management. And the only ways to get raises will be by losses from fellow employees. Seems you won't be happy until both CA and FO make 150 an hour by your numbers. Actually, im a capitalist, your idea seems more socialist.

 

[Smarta$$]

So by your logic, there will be no more gains in negotiations with management. And the only ways to get raises will be by losses from fellow employees. Seems you won't be happy until both CA and FO make 150 an hour by your numbers. Actually, im a capitalist, your idea seems more socialist.

I did not say you were a socialist. I said you would call someone a socialist if they wanted to change pay to 299 to 2.

Of course you can make gains in negotiations. You should raise everyone's pay. The point is, you believe that no matter how lopsided the compensation is, as long as it benefits you, it is OK. As soon as the union wants to change the compensation ratios to those more close to the industry standards, you cry redistribution of wealth.

If the situation was reversed, and FOs were paid above industry average while CAs were paid less than industry average, you would be DEMANDING them to redistribute the income.

 

[Blade Runner]

If the situation was reversed, and FOs were paid above industry average while CAs were paid less than industry average, you would be DEMANDING them to redistribute the income.

You sir/mam, are the inevitable consequence of ALAP's destructive policy of successfully driving wedges between pilot groups, and the reason for my first post on this thread.
It is fundamentally wrong to negotiate with the dues payers for better pay and work conditions instead of the Company. Why you don't get this remains in part a systemic problem within ALPA.
You want fairness? Then negotiate a better pay rate with the people who sign your paycheck. Has ALPA now turned our FOs into a bunch of PANHANDLERS !!! Should the Captain after every trip pull out his check book to compensate these FO's just to make it fair? Has ALPA lost its collective mind?
The FO is a professional member of our crew and deserves ALPA's attention as much as any Captain.Therefore, negotiate with the Company for long term wage stability, and not this Mickey Mouse Band-Aid fix that in the end will drag us all down.

 

[Speedtape]

You sir/mam, are the inevitable consequence of ALAP's destructive policy of successfully driving wedges between pilot groups, and the reason for my first post on this thread.
It is fundamentally wrong to negotiate with the dues payers for better pay and work conditions instead of the Company. Why you don't get this remains in part a systemic problem within ALPA.
You want fairness? Then negotiate a better pay rate with the people who sign your paycheck. Has ALPA now turned our FOs into a bunch of PANHANDLERS !!! Should the Captain after every trip pull out his check book to compensate these FO's just to make it fair? Has ALPA lost its collective mind?
The FO is a professional member of our crew and deserves ALPA's attention as much as any Captain.Therefore, negotiate with the Company for long term wage stability, and not this Mickey Mouse Band-Aid fix that in the end will drag us all down.

And on top of that, you are conditioning, teaching, telling, sharing with the Management that you are willing to try to correct the wrongs that you negotiated with them in the past.

Suggestion: Quit trying to reslice the medium pizza that they gave you. It will only create a wedge in you pilot group trying to reconcile previous mistakes. Instead, all pilots pull on the same end of the rope, negotiate and acquire a Jumbo pizza, then do a fair and equitable distribution (good luck on that one).

 

[Smarta$$]

You sir/mam, are the inevitable consequence of ALAP's destructive policy of successfully driving wedges between pilot groups, and the reason for my first post on this thread.
It is fundamentally wrong to negotiate with the dues payers for better pay and work conditions instead of the Company. Why you don't get this remains in part a systemic problem within ALPA.
You want fairness? Then negotiate a better pay rate with the people who sign your paycheck. Has ALPA now turned our FOs into a bunch of PANHANDLERS !!! Should the Captain after every trip pull out his check book to compensate these FO's just to make it fair? Has ALPA lost its collective mind?
The FO is a professional member of our crew and deserves ALPA's attention as much as any Captain.Therefore, negotiate with the Company for long term wage stability, and not this Mickey Mouse Band-Aid fix that in the end will drag us all down.

You act as if it was the company that decided the CAs would be paid average and the FOs under average without any input from the union at the time. That assertion from you shows your ignorance of how wages are negotiated. The union at the time had much to do with the distribution of wages between CA and FO. The NC and the MEC at that time decided to put more of the pizza in front of CAs and less in front of FOs. And if as you suggest, this can is kicked down the road till the next negotiating cycle, more negotiating capital will be used up in the process to get the FOs the pay they deserve, and the union will have less left over to give you any improvements.

I am not saying this is the only way to deal with the situation, but you dismissing outright as an inappropriate redistribution of wealth is dishonest. Because you would be demanding the redistribution if the table was turned and you were not the benefactor.

 

[Smarta$$]

And on top of that, you are conditioning, teaching, telling, sharing with the Management that you are willing to try to correct the wrongs that you negotiated with them in the past.

Suggestion: Quit trying to reslice the medium pizza that they gave you. It will only create a wedge in you pilot group trying to reconcile previous mistakes. Instead, all pilots pull on the same end of the rope, negotiate and acquire a Jumbo pizza, then do a fair and equitable distribution (good luck on that one).

If I know your type, and I am sure I do, if the union could actually get a Jumbo pizza out of the company, you would demand that 80% of it went to benefit you with any argument you could come up with.

It is very basic, Mesaba's pay, like pinnacle's is imbalanced more than most other regional airlines toward CAs. And any attempt to re-balance to industry norms is met with claims of socialism and redistribution.

If the balance is inappropriate to begin with, then redistribution is appropriate. And suggesting that you wait until management finally gets around to agreeing to a new contract 5 or more years down the road is a stall tactic designed to maintain the status quo that benefits YOU and those like YOU.

It is shamelessly selfish and transparent. And I don't even work there.

 

[CptMurf]

If I know your type, and I am sure I do, if the union could actually get a Jumbo pizza out of the company, you would demand that 80% of it went to benefit you with any argument you could come up with.

It is very basic, Mesaba's pay, like pinnacle's is imbalanced more than most other regional airlines toward CAs. And any attempt to re-balance to industry norms is met with claims of socialism and redistribution.

If the balance is inappropriate to begin with, then redistribution is appropriate. And suggesting that you wait until management finally gets around to agreeing to a new contract 5 or more years down the road is a stall tactic designed to maintain the status quo that benefits YOU and those like YOU.

It is shamelessly selfish and transparent. And I don't even work there.

The FO pay problem with our contract is due entirely to the blended rate. We we signed the contract the FO pay was over 60% of the CA pay. The reason this percentage has lessened is only due to the shift in fleet.

Pinnacle's problem is very similar, when they signed the contract in 99, they didn't have any CRJs...only Saabs. I can remember statements of, "Well the jet rate isn't so great, but we don't have any" on a crew bus that summer.

In fact, I would almost state that every contract is imbalanced or broken by the time it reaches its term. The industry changes, inflation happens, and fleets change. That is why we try to keep the contract lengths relatively short. Our (XJ) original contract is/was due to be up by now. It is 6 years old.

When the contract was up for vote, I was to receive a substantially larger percentage of increased pay than the CAs. I believed that I would receive that I would receive the rates in the TA for the length of the contract, so I voted yes. When I was forced into a TA in the BK, I felt that we had saved all that we could. I also felt, as most, that we would be receiving larger aircraft and would receive the snapbacks for the duration of the extended contract, so I voted yes. Had I known of the BK, I would have never voted for the contract. Had I known of this LOA, I would have never voted for the concessionary contract. The senior pilot group here has paid over and over again, we are tired of being told it is our responsiblity to give. This LOA only poliferates the race to the bottom. It shows management that they have achieved an acceptable employee cost for all pilots and that from now on we can just reallocate our pay. It also show that for 6 years we have been operating with an FO group that was making more on average than their peers, but when the fleet changes they call foul. Only this time, instead of having anger towards mgmt., and pushing them to raise pay and subsequently the "bar", we will just whine and take pay from fellow employees.