Mesaba CRJs to be "asset" transfer?

[WildBlue]

As Higney85 said, there are a lot of ways to look at this. Do not forget LOA 21 signed between Pinnacle, Mesaba and the two MECs. I have not read it, but I did hear some folks who have talking about how mgmt may be using that as the means of bringing XJ pilots over.

 

[CptMurf]

As Higney85 said, there are a lot of ways to look at this. Do not forget LOA 21 signed between Pinnacle, Mesaba and the two MECs. I have not read it, but I did hear some folks who have talking about how mgmt may be using that as the means of bringing XJ pilots over.

It's not up to mgmt. That would be between pilot groups. And I wouldn't count on your newfound seniority based on a 13 year old LOA which has no correlation to the current situation.

 

[CptMurf]

Any management can choose not to follow a term in their contract. It would be up to the entire pilot group to stand up for the wrongs at that point. Whether that is arbitration or self help. The biggest force would be the investors knowing that the entire corporations future is in jeopardy due to poor labor relations.
There are provisions in our contract for everything that is happening. Our unions will have a strong say if we stay together on this. Real world example at XJ... Our organizing all unionized labor groups against management in one unified voice during the BK.

 

[kmox29]

Unfortunately the pilots are not in charge. I've worked long enough for 9E to know how management runs this company, and the "never compromise savings" mantra will rear its ugly head.

You (pilots) have more power than you believe. The issue is, whether or not you'll use it effectively.

The original question remains as follows: What does Mesaba have in their contract to prevent management from pulling airframes without SLI?

Again, why aren't the Pinnacle pilots asking their MEC what they can do to ensure all groups don't get screwed by management?

 

[higney85]

Again, why aren't the Pinnacle pilots asking their MEC what they can do to ensure all groups don't get screwed by management?

Many actually are. I'm seeing why FI has a bad rap of being truthless bashing at times but I will say many are asking for a way to have guys come over with airframes in relative seniority. Our flying for sept still requires additional staffing- the 9E and XJ planes still must continue flying and attrition is up, hours are up, and the company even admits they are short. Ideally all the planes and all the current 9E/XJ/XJ furloughs will be flying them. If you look at this from a bird's eye view there are many avenues, some are legal, some are the company's ways to cost savings, some are ALPA merger policy (section 45 of the admin manual, accessible from your crewroom.alp.org library page). In the end what we all want is a good contract and a pilot group (overall) that has learned from DL/NWA and the mistakes of America west/ usair. Until the company truly puts out what they are looking for in terms of transfer/merger/strategic plan we are all spinning wheels in the mud with theories. The MEC's are talking and will all meet face to face when the big picture actually begins to be painted. I'd tell everyone to tell your reps what you want, but also think realistically as to the situation. Each group simply wanting a windfall will lead to arbitration. The LOA exists, so does other scope language.

 

[CptMurf]

I was with you till your last statement. The LOA is only being brought into this because your pilots are bringing it up as a way for a personal gain at XJ pilots expense. If you were interested in a fair integration, you would not entertain the idea of using it, and would not let your mgmt. even imply your using of it. It did not and does not apply to this type of situation. The pilots that used the LOA would tell you they did not lose out, nor feel screwed by it. I'll put you in contact with at least 10 of them if you would like to discuss it. Lastly, if it were used now, it would screw those pilots too. If you think they were screwed by us (they weren't), why are you insistent on screwing them over too?

 

[Superpilot92]

push for integration, dont let them whipsaw yall as a pilot group! Strength in numbers!!

 

[higney85]

Murf- I hear ya. Off the top of my head I see the following issues with the LOA that legal could tear apart. I bring it up because it IS in both contracts and mgmt WILL try to use it.

-written between mesaba and express, not pinnacle
-after effective date seniority transfer can be interpreted as 1:1
-CRJ's are not mentioned in either LOA
-the language implies a new contract removes the LOA, the LOA was included in the 2004 agreement, what about the essentially new deal from BK?

I'm not out to screw anybody, contrary to your assumptions.

 

[CptMurf]

The BK concessions are actually an LOA to the current agreement. Nothing in LOA 6/21 applies...express gone, date were specific to the LOA, fleet was specific to the LOA, etc. The only part of it still in play is the reciprocal agreement which states if the shoes are on the other foot, XJ pilots could go to 9E with "terms no less favorable that this agreement." Implying there would have to be a new LOA for that specific transfer.

This LOA has NO regard on this situation, has not been brought up by management (per rep), and is only been dicussed on Internet forums (mainly brought up by 9E pilots) as to how XJ pilots will be screwed in seniority integration. Until 9E pilots refuse to use this LOA in integration, the threat will be present for XJ guys. A threat from pilots, not mgmt.

 

[CptMurf]

When you state, " I refuse to except a 1-2 integration, will not entertain discussions with mgmt for the use of it, and will strike for it", then I will believe you are not for it. Until then, I will assume that you will use it for personal gain, against myself, my ability to provide for my family, and my fellow employees. I in turn state that I will not dicuss this as an option, will correct an fellow employee i hear state anything like this, and will not let my union use an integration method like this against 9L. Fair integration on to 1 list is what I want, but if it has to be 2 lists, there should not be significant gains by any one pilot group.

 

[Minnesotan]

Again, why aren't the Pinnacle pilots asking their MEC what they can do to ensure all groups don't get screwed by management?

Is that a real question, or are you just being stupid and trying to add fuel to the fire?

 

[CptMurf]

Is that a real question, or are you just being stupid and trying to add fuel to the fire?

Pretty sure that's a real question. Maybe somewhat rhetorical. KMox works for neither of us.

 

[Minnesotan]

Pretty sure that's a real question. Maybe somewhat rhetorical. KMox works for neither of us.

I know who he works for and it doesn't really make a difference. One breath he is stating how the company wants to "divide and conquer" and then the next breath he is helping them out.

 

[RJLoser]

I dont want to see anyone shafted but....
I have a hard time believing that XJ pilots would do what they are asking pinnacle pilots to do. It seems their feelings about 9E have been constant until this merger occurred.

 

[dondk]

Any management can choose not to follow a term in their contract. It would be up to the entire pilot group to stand up for the wrongs at that point. Whether that is arbitration or self help. The biggest force would be the investors knowing that the entire corporations future is in jeopardy due to poor labor relations.
There are provisions in our contract for everything that is happening. Our unions will have a strong say if we stay together on this. Real world example at XJ... Our organizing all unionized labor groups against management in one unified voice during the BK.

great statement, but you are are not being realistic.

That piece of paper you call the contract is simply a piece of paper. You need willing parties to abide by it, otherwise you need lawyers to enforce it, and even then it is not always enforced.

Arbitration is not overnight, ask the 9E MEC how few arbitration's they get a year and how many actually occur. The RLA does not allow self help due to differences of opinions about the language of a contract.

While I would like to say one unified voice is realistic, remember the pilot group you are dealing with. 9E pilot group is themselves first, then their families, the company and union duke it out for whose is next.

The ignorance is blinding that you actually think waving A contract at PNCL will make them do something different. Airline contract are only worth what both parties are willing to deal/live with.

 

[CptMurf]

great statement, but you are are not being realistic.

Not being realistic... In the last 12 years I've seen it work over and over again at XJ. Your management may be tough, but you guys haven't been through anything like we have dealt with.

That piece of paper you call the contract is simply a piece of paper. You need willing parties to abide by it, otherwise you need lawyers to enforce it, and even then it is not always enforced.

Arbitration is not overnight, ask the 9E MEC how few arbitration's they get a year and how many actually occur. The RLA does not allow self help due to differences of opinions about the language of a contract.

That's the best we have. You have to stick together and not give up. XJ's have survived the last 9 years, overcoming all types of obstacles only because they have sticked together. Seems like you guys have given up on your own contract, no wonder Mgmt has.

While I would like to say one unified voice is realistic, remember the pilot group you are dealing with. 9E pilot group is themselves first, then their families, the company and union duke it out for whose is next.

Maybe you hit the nail on the head with this statement. This may be why you have experience protracted negotiations. I prioritize 1. God 2. My family 3. My fellow employees 4. My passengers 5. My company 6. My self

The ignorance is blinding that you actually think waving A contract at PNCL will make them do something different. Airline contract are only worth what both parties are willing to deal/live with.

There's no ignorance. I've seen it in action. I just can't believe how much different our employee cultures are. XJ has a strong solidarity, motivated union officers and members, and the intestinal fortitude to see it through. You guys may need us more than you think.

 

[rene]

Are you smoking crack or are just stupid? How many 9E Fo's do I have to hear ask, "when are we getting all of Mesaba's jets?" or "When are we getting the crj 200's back that they took from us?" Even in the meetings Phil whatever his name said that they PLAN is that all the Jets will be under 9E and Props under XJ. He has said how that happens is yet to be determined because there are alot of contracts to be negotiated. This is a fact, Pinnacle Corp will want to retain the pilots as they are all qualified on them saving a lot of money. How much would it cost to train 60 some crews for those planes? Our unions will negotiate something and ALPA language states that no one group in a SLI will gain a windfall from the transaction. And realise this for all of you at 9E who think you bought XJ. The company who owns your company bought you, putting all of us on an equal footing in this deal. I do not see anyone at Mesaba saying they will take Colgans Q400 and leave their pilots to be thrown to the street. Grow up and think about how strength will be through unit, not dumba$$ comments (by the way, wishing to take all of our aircraft to get an upgrade is pretty crappy-our contract language will prevent your hopes and dreams from occuring)

If the aircraft are transferred from Mesaba to Pinnacle then every pilot would have to be trained under the Pinnacle certificate. The same is true if the props are transferred to the Colgan certificate.

It may not require a full trianing even but I thinkit will get very expensive?

Am I missing something here?

 

[CoATP]

It's cheaper for 9E to have an abbreviated training for xj crj people than folk off the street. The POI will have to sign off but I could forsee indoc 3 days, class room 2 days, then sim and IOE. Could be 3 weeks from start to release to line. Newhires are 3 mos minimum from start of training. No need for the company to do ANYTHING until the end of the summer travel season whenthe pressure is off. Anybody that says STRIKE! if we don't gete what we want does not understand the RLA.

 

[Flyer1015]

we pay a crap-ton (by word) in dues for ALPA legal- let the process work.

Yes, sort of like how ALPA worked for US Airways pilots. Yes, that went over real well.

 

[Flyer1015]

What's to stop this scenario:

Next upcoming vacancies, all super senior pilots at Mesaba will bid to get on the CRJs, if they aren't already there. Who will stay in a turboprop that is slated to be killed end of 2011? So then you have the top top most senior pilots at XJ, all on the jets, looking for *some* way to come over in an asset transfer. Fine. Assume it happens. Just how can you possibly fairly integrate the 9E group with the most top senior Mesaba pilots that will come with the jets? If there is any 10+ year CA at Mesaba on the Saab, he will be bidding for the jet. Your future at the all-jet Pinnacle is far better than the all-prop Mesaba, considering Mesaba will lose the Saabs with the current Delta deal. There is no fair way to integrate a top super senior group within the 9E ranks. As for the comments regarding to let the union MECs deal with this, the 9E MEC sold out FOs twice, once in 2007, and once in 2009. Sorry for not having any faith in this whole process.