Mesaba CRJs to be "asset" transfer?

[Minnesotan]

Again, why aren't the Pinnacle pilots asking their MEC what they can do to ensure all groups don't get screwed by management?

Is that a real question, or are you just being stupid and trying to add fuel to the fire?

 

[CptMurf]

Is that a real question, or are you just being stupid and trying to add fuel to the fire?

Pretty sure that's a real question. Maybe somewhat rhetorical. KMox works for neither of us.

 

[Minnesotan]

Pretty sure that's a real question. Maybe somewhat rhetorical. KMox works for neither of us.

I know who he works for and it doesn't really make a difference. One breath he is stating how the company wants to "divide and conquer" and then the next breath he is helping them out.

 

[RJLoser]

I dont want to see anyone shafted but....
I have a hard time believing that XJ pilots would do what they are asking pinnacle pilots to do. It seems their feelings about 9E have been constant until this merger occurred.

 

[dondk]

Any management can choose not to follow a term in their contract. It would be up to the entire pilot group to stand up for the wrongs at that point. Whether that is arbitration or self help. The biggest force would be the investors knowing that the entire corporations future is in jeopardy due to poor labor relations.
There are provisions in our contract for everything that is happening. Our unions will have a strong say if we stay together on this. Real world example at XJ... Our organizing all unionized labor groups against management in one unified voice during the BK.

great statement, but you are are not being realistic.

That piece of paper you call the contract is simply a piece of paper. You need willing parties to abide by it, otherwise you need lawyers to enforce it, and even then it is not always enforced.

Arbitration is not overnight, ask the 9E MEC how few arbitration's they get a year and how many actually occur. The RLA does not allow self help due to differences of opinions about the language of a contract.

While I would like to say one unified voice is realistic, remember the pilot group you are dealing with. 9E pilot group is themselves first, then their families, the company and union duke it out for whose is next.

The ignorance is blinding that you actually think waving A contract at PNCL will make them do something different. Airline contract are only worth what both parties are willing to deal/live with.

 

[CptMurf]

great statement, but you are are not being realistic.

Not being realistic... In the last 12 years I've seen it work over and over again at XJ. Your management may be tough, but you guys haven't been through anything like we have dealt with.

That piece of paper you call the contract is simply a piece of paper. You need willing parties to abide by it, otherwise you need lawyers to enforce it, and even then it is not always enforced.

Arbitration is not overnight, ask the 9E MEC how few arbitration's they get a year and how many actually occur. The RLA does not allow self help due to differences of opinions about the language of a contract.

That's the best we have. You have to stick together and not give up. XJ's have survived the last 9 years, overcoming all types of obstacles only because they have sticked together. Seems like you guys have given up on your own contract, no wonder Mgmt has.

While I would like to say one unified voice is realistic, remember the pilot group you are dealing with. 9E pilot group is themselves first, then their families, the company and union duke it out for whose is next.

Maybe you hit the nail on the head with this statement. This may be why you have experience protracted negotiations. I prioritize 1. God 2. My family 3. My fellow employees 4. My passengers 5. My company 6. My self

The ignorance is blinding that you actually think waving A contract at PNCL will make them do something different. Airline contract are only worth what both parties are willing to deal/live with.

There's no ignorance. I've seen it in action. I just can't believe how much different our employee cultures are. XJ has a strong solidarity, motivated union officers and members, and the intestinal fortitude to see it through. You guys may need us more than you think.

 

[rene]

Are you smoking crack or are just stupid? How many 9E Fo's do I have to hear ask, "when are we getting all of Mesaba's jets?" or "When are we getting the crj 200's back that they took from us?" Even in the meetings Phil whatever his name said that they PLAN is that all the Jets will be under 9E and Props under XJ. He has said how that happens is yet to be determined because there are alot of contracts to be negotiated. This is a fact, Pinnacle Corp will want to retain the pilots as they are all qualified on them saving a lot of money. How much would it cost to train 60 some crews for those planes? Our unions will negotiate something and ALPA language states that no one group in a SLI will gain a windfall from the transaction. And realise this for all of you at 9E who think you bought XJ. The company who owns your company bought you, putting all of us on an equal footing in this deal. I do not see anyone at Mesaba saying they will take Colgans Q400 and leave their pilots to be thrown to the street. Grow up and think about how strength will be through unit, not dumba$$ comments (by the way, wishing to take all of our aircraft to get an upgrade is pretty crappy-our contract language will prevent your hopes and dreams from occuring)

If the aircraft are transferred from Mesaba to Pinnacle then every pilot would have to be trained under the Pinnacle certificate. The same is true if the props are transferred to the Colgan certificate.

It may not require a full trianing even but I thinkit will get very expensive?

Am I missing something here?

 

[CoATP]

It's cheaper for 9E to have an abbreviated training for xj crj people than folk off the street. The POI will have to sign off but I could forsee indoc 3 days, class room 2 days, then sim and IOE. Could be 3 weeks from start to release to line. Newhires are 3 mos minimum from start of training. No need for the company to do ANYTHING until the end of the summer travel season whenthe pressure is off. Anybody that says STRIKE! if we don't gete what we want does not understand the RLA.

 

[Flyer1015]

we pay a crap-ton (by word) in dues for ALPA legal- let the process work.

Yes, sort of like how ALPA worked for US Airways pilots. Yes, that went over real well.

 

[Flyer1015]

What's to stop this scenario:

Next upcoming vacancies, all super senior pilots at Mesaba will bid to get on the CRJs, if they aren't already there. Who will stay in a turboprop that is slated to be killed end of 2011? So then you have the top top most senior pilots at XJ, all on the jets, looking for *some* way to come over in an asset transfer. Fine. Assume it happens. Just how can you possibly fairly integrate the 9E group with the most top senior Mesaba pilots that will come with the jets? If there is any 10+ year CA at Mesaba on the Saab, he will be bidding for the jet. Your future at the all-jet Pinnacle is far better than the all-prop Mesaba, considering Mesaba will lose the Saabs with the current Delta deal. There is no fair way to integrate a top super senior group within the 9E ranks. As for the comments regarding to let the union MECs deal with this, the 9E MEC sold out FOs twice, once in 2007, and once in 2009. Sorry for not having any faith in this whole process.

 

[xjhawk]

I dont want to see anyone shafted but....
I have a hard time believing that XJ pilots would do what they are asking pinnacle pilots to do. It seems their feelings about 9E have been constant until this merger occurred.

What exactly are you saying. Do you realise that it is not Pinnacle Airlines and their pilots that bought Mesaba from Delta, it was the company that owns them that bought mesaba. So what we are trying to do as Mesaba pilots is to promote unity, a fair SLI for one seniority list(sometimes fair means everyone is not the happiest they can be) and a good comined contract. What dont we want you ask? idiots who think that Pinnnacle airlines and their pilots can rape our seniority list, think they can take our planes .....etc etc etc. Get this through all your minds right now, you are not the "buying airline", your owners are. How they want to split their aircraft up for their business plan is up to them. it is our job to remain united and get the best scenerio for SLI and the best contract for us all.

So as you can see we are not asking for anything we are not already offering. Oh and by the way, when NWA made 9E a CRJ airline and transfered the Saabs to XJ our union offered but was not obligated to give jobs and seniority to pilots that wanted to come with the planes. I will say it again, they did not have to do that good faith jesture. Oh and just ask those guys if they were happy with what they got, many are still here and still as happy as they can be at a regional who gets screwed all the time.

 

[xjhawk]

If the aircraft are transferred from Mesaba to Pinnacle then every pilot would have to be trained under the Pinnacle certificate. The same is true if the props are transferred to the Colgan certificate.

It may not require a full trianing even but I thinkit will get very expensive?

Am I missing something here?

Yes you are missing something, short course save the company A LOT of money. enough said.

 

[Ad Lib]

If the aircraft are transferred from Mesaba to Pinnacle then every pilot would have to be trained under the Pinnacle certificate. The same is true if the props are transferred to the Colgan certificate.

It may not require a full trianing even but I thinkit will get very expensive?

Am I missing something here?

Yes. Training can be a CD. Production cost less than a buck. Distribution cost $0.43 per pilot. Ask the NWA pilots. The amazing thing is, it worked!

What kind of scope, merger and fragmentation language does Mesaba have? While it would be nice for management and other pilot groups to do what they should do, most of the time in this business, they do what they have to do. What is the available leverage?

 

[kmox29]

I know who he works for and it doesn't really make a difference. One breath he is stating how the company wants to "divide and conquer" and then the next breath he is helping them out.

Not trying to fuel any fire. I want to see all 3 pilot groups work toward the best possible solution. I have been seeing a lot of "What can the XJ MEC do to stop this from happening?" type of comments (I'm assuming made from 9E pilots). So my response was somewhat tongue-in-cheek when I mentioned the Pinnacle MEC.

I would hope that the pilots are smart enough to see that it's a "we" issue. What can *we* do to ensure everyone is fairly treated. Comments like "The pilots are not in control." and "The Pinnacle MEC is too busy with our own problems to worry about everyone else." frighten me.

Apologies if I didn't make that clearer in my earlier post.

 

[RJLoser]

What exactly are you saying. Do you realise that it is not Pinnacle Airlines and their pilots that bought Mesaba from Delta, it was the company that owns them that bought mesaba. So what we are trying to do as Mesaba pilots is to promote unity, a fair SLI for one seniority list(sometimes fair means everyone is not the happiest they can be) and a good comined contract. What dont we want you ask? idiots who think that Pinnnacle airlines and their pilots can rape our seniority list, think they can take our planes .....etc etc etc. Get this through all your minds right now, you are not the "buying airline", your owners are. How they want to split their aircraft up for their business plan is up to them. it is our job to remain united and get the best scenerio for SLI and the best contract for us all.

So as you can see we are not asking for anything we are not already offering. Oh and by the way, when NWA made 9E a CRJ airline and transfered the Saabs to XJ our union offered but was not obligated to give jobs and seniority to pilots that wanted to come with the planes. I will say it again, they did not have to do that good faith jesture. Oh and just ask those guys if they were happy with what they got, many are still here and still as happy as they can be at a regional who gets screwed all the time.

I never said anything about 9E pilots buying XJ. What I did say was that until recently, XJ guys/gals had wanted nothing to do with and disrespect for 9E. Now you are asking solidarity from the 9E pilots. The trouble I have is believing that if the situation was reversed XJ pilots would be opening their arms to the 9E pilot group. Don't be confused, I am for a fair integration. It's the right way. I have just seen an elitist attitude from XJ pilots toward 9E pilots and have a hard time believing that attitude wouldn't transfer to a "screw em" belief attitude if the situation was reversed. Honestly, you don’t?