Mesaba CRJs to be "asset" transfer?

[Flyer1015]

From the latest update, it seems that the Mesaba CRJs to Pinnacle will be an "asset" transfer and the props will be "merger" of Mesaba with Colgan. Am I reading this right? If so, I hate to be the one to say it, but all Mesaba pilots should get ready to be bent over.

It doesn't seem XJ pilots will be coming over with the jets. And if you think 9E management will help you or even the 9E MEC, you're in for a rude awakening. Our MEC has its own wars/problems within, let alone handle a situation like this. I can see management touting "asset transfer" and not "merger" therefore bypassing language within contract scope clauses. What exactly, to the WORD, is XJ scope protection? Someone post it here please. And what will prevent an asset transfer?

Good luck to you guys, you're gonna need it. And lube!

 

[mesaba13]

I heard that the asset transfer will be 900's from pinnacle to XJ as a tactic to get 9E to settle.

 

[Flyer1015]

I heard that the asset transfer will be 900's from pinnacle to XJ as a tactic to get 9E to settle.

Move 900s from a cheaper contract to a more expensive one? Pinnacle mgt will not go for that. Instead, you can bet the 900s from XJ will come to Pinnacle, under current Pinnacle contract and rates extablished.

 

[redflyer65]

This is gonna be ugly...

 

[Raoul Duke]

I heard the same thing. Does anyone have the Mesaba scope clause handy?

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Here's an ingenious solution- everyone wear your epaulets backward- that way management won't be able to tell the "nine" pilots from anyone else.

 

[xjhawk]

Are you smoking crack or are just stupid? How many 9E Fo's do I have to hear ask, "when are we getting all of Mesaba's jets?" or "When are we getting the crj 200's back that they took from us?" Even in the meetings Phil whatever his name said that they PLAN is that all the Jets will be under 9E and Props under XJ. He has said how that happens is yet to be determined because there are alot of contracts to be negotiated. This is a fact, Pinnacle Corp will want to retain the pilots as they are all qualified on them saving a lot of money. How much would it cost to train 60 some crews for those planes? Our unions will negotiate something and ALPA language states that no one group in a SLI will gain a windfall from the transaction. And realise this for all of you at 9E who think you bought XJ. The company who owns your company bought you, putting all of us on an equal footing in this deal. I do not see anyone at Mesaba saying they will take Colgans Q400 and leave their pilots to be thrown to the street. Grow up and think about how strength will be through unit, not dumba$$ comments (by the way, wishing to take all of our aircraft to get an upgrade is pretty crappy-our contract language will prevent your hopes and dreams from occuring)

 

[xjhawk]

by the way, my harsh words are not for all the good guys and gals over there at 9E who have not opened there mouth and voiced stupid merger scenerios

 

[redflyer65]

XJ,

If you're hearing people thump their chest and say they are 'upgrading soon', you need to just ignore them. Its Phil and Co that you need to be concerned about. For Mesaba pilot's sake, I hope your successor clause holds up...because the new guys you're dealing with will try to take the cheapest coarse of action. Period, end of story.

They want the lowest possible cost without care to those around them, or those that work for them. They have had hundreds of opportunities to do the right thing over the years, and they always do the cheapest! ALWAYS! The cheaper the operation, the larger their bonus.

Try to ignore any 9E boneheads and focus on your real enemy.

 

[Flyer1015]

xjhawk,

I say again, what exactly in your scope contract will prevent an "asset transfer"? I do not have the Mesaba contract with me, so I do not know. But from what I understand, the scope clause is not that great. You talk about SLI, but from what we at 9E are hearing is that the plan is to transfer the 900s as an "asset" to Pinnacle, so 9E operates all CRJs, and merge Mesaba with Colgan with all the turboprops, at which point the appropriate merger policy, SLI will apply. But what is to STOP an asset transfer? On what will your union stand on to say that you cannot transfer assets without transferring pilots. Most scope clauses have protections for successorship or merger. But asset transfer can get real ugly. 9E mgt has zero incentive to bring any Mesaba pilots to 9E with the CRJs. Do not worry about 9E employees right now. I would be much more worried about Mesaba's scope clause, what it can do for asset transfer, and what your union has to fight with.

 

[mesaba13]

Our scope clause addresses transfer airplanes and says pilots go with. It also discusses a merger/aquisition/consolidation seperately with seniority rights and ALPA policy. Both scenarios are covered. In addition, before any transaction a letter by the aquiring company has to be signed and agreed to!

 

[xjhawk]

Thanks Mesaba13 for that. Thanks redflyer, I pretty much go with the 10% rule in any company. 10% tend to be idiots/a$$holes. I just hate to think that I have had the bad luck to run into so many lately that are FO's at 9E. I even know a FO there and he is a great guy. And as for the clown who says there is no reason why to bring the pilots with the aircraft.....try this (I already mentioned it BTW) try calculating the training costs for the pilots to fly that many "new" aircraft.

I listened to our union leadership, 9E's and Colgans union leadership and they all seem to be on the same page and should work well together. It will be a tough fight and lets all give them some good support and not create dividing lines in our battle with this situation. Redflyer65, where are you at...I can guess with the 737 listed.

 

[i fly boxes]

From the latest update, it seems that the Mesaba CRJs to Pinnacle will be an "asset" transfer and the props will be "merger" of Mesaba with Colgan. Am I reading this right? If so, I hate to be the one to say it, but all Mesaba pilots should get ready to be bent over.

It doesn't seem XJ pilots will be coming over with the jets. And if you think 9E management will help you or even the 9E MEC, you're in for a rude awakening. Our MEC has its own wars/problems within, let alone handle a situation like this. I can see management touting "asset transfer" and not "merger" therefore bypassing language within contract scope clauses. What exactly, to the WORD, is XJ scope protection? Someone post it here please. And what will prevent an asset transfer?

Good luck to you guys, you're gonna need it. And lube!

xj pilots will be coming with the jets, where has it been said that they wont? I dont know why you are posting stuff like this, all you are doing is getting xj pilots upset and we need to be one unified group here. I am not saying that they haven't said some nasty things about us in the past, but the second this aquisition was announced, i put that stuff in the past because we are going to get nothing we want if we don't work together from this point on.

 

[mesaba13]

Agreed.

 

[higney85]

Even as a 9E guy I posted up all the relevant sections in the MSA (XJ) CBA and 9E CBA. The issue isn't if pilots go- it's at what level (SLi/LOA/other). All MEC's will get together when the company states their intentions, until then it's all theories. There is ALPA merger policy, there is an LOA, there is a purchase, a successor, a merger, a transfer. It's all in the legal aspects and the direction the company tries to take. We are all pilots with one foe, we pay a crap-ton (by word) in dues for ALPA legal- let the process work.

 

[dondk]

Even as a 9E guy I posted up all the relevant sections in the MSA (XJ) CBA and 9E CBA. The issue isn't if pilots go- it's at what level (SLi/LOA/other). All MEC's will get together when the company states their intentions, until then it's all theories. There is ALPA merger policy, there is an LOA, there is a purchase, a successor, a merger, a transfer. It's all in the legal aspects and the direction the company tries to take. We are all pilots with one foe, we pay a crap-ton (by word) in dues for ALPA legal- let the process work.

You doing your best Higney85, but you have an uphill battle. Keep up the fight though!

 

[Salukipilot4590]

This is gonna be ugly...

I'm sorry...I couldn't hear that over your avatar....sweet Jesus.

 

[kmox29]

It doesn't seem XJ pilots will be coming over with the jets. And if you think 9E management will help you or even the 9E MEC, you're in for a rude awakening. Our MEC has its own wars/problems within, let alone handle a situation like this. I can see management touting "asset transfer" and not "merger" therefore bypassing language within contract scope clauses. What exactly, to the WORD, is XJ scope protection? Someone post it here please. And what will prevent an asset transfer?

Good luck to you guys, you're gonna need it. And lube!

As an outside observer, it's interesting you wouldn't be saying, "We'll do out best to help out. We know this airline and management's attitude towards pilots. We won't let any pilot group get screwed."

Instead, you're continuing to do what management wants...divide and conquer. Very sad.

 

[CptMurf]

As an outside observer, it's interesting you wouldn't be saying, "We'll do out best to help out. We know this airline and management's attitude towards pilots. We won't let any pilot group get screwed."

Instead, you're continuing to do what management wants...divide and conquer. Very sad.

I agree.

The outspoken 9E pilots on these boards are doing a great disservice in a smooth integration and becoming a great regional with the best from all existing contracts.

I stated this before, but I will reiterate and change color for those that evidently do not see it or understand the difference.
Pinnacle Airlines did not purchase Mesaba Airlines! Pinnacle Holdings (Corp) did.

At a minimum, the XJ contract is in place and will continue "as is" on that side. XJ pilots welcome 9L guys and we will make it a smooth transition for you! Our Q rates are the same as our 200 rates listed on APC (about $3 less than our 900 rates).

With the transfer of aircraft to 9E, there are provisions that say the pilots have the opportunity to go with the aircraft. How is up do negotiations between our pilot groups. I would hope that the 9E guys would understand that the interation needs to be fair for everyone. But ALPA needs time to work it out, give them a chance would you.

Instead of beating your chest's on how XJ is screwed. Why don't you redirect that energy to Mgmt. and state how you want one seniority list (SLI) between the three, with the best of all contracts. Anything else and the whole corporation should shut down!!!!

 

[ricecake]

I agree.

The outspoken 9E pilots on these boards are doing a great disservice in a smooth integration and becoming a great regional with the best from all existing contracts.

I stated this before, but I will reiterate and change color for those that evidently do not see it or understand the difference.
Pinnacle Airlines did not purchase Mesaba Airlines! Pinnacle Holdings (Corp) did.

At a minimum, the XJ contract is in place and will continue "as is" on that side. XJ pilots welcome 9L guys and we will make it a smooth transition for you! Our Q rates are the same as our 200 rates listed on APC (about $3 less than our 900 rates).

With the transfer of aircraft to 9E, there are provisions that say the pilots have the opportunity to go with the aircraft. How is up do negotiations between our pilot groups. I would hope that the 9E guys would understand that the interation needs to be fair for everyone. But ALPA needs time to work it out, give them a chance would you.

Instead of beating your chest's on how XJ is screwed. Why don't you redirect that energy to Mgmt. and state how you want one seniority list (SLI) between the three, with the best of all contracts. Anything else and the whole corporation should shut down!!!!

As a 9E guy I agree with your position, this needs to be done right. I have told Mesaba guys in person and I'll do it here, no one is interested in destroying the Mesaba pilot group in taking all the jets with no SLI. Unfortunately the pilots are not in charge. I've worked long enough for 9E to know how management runs this company, and the "never compromise savings" mantra will rear its ugly head.

Phil and management have said more than once that the only way for the 900 operation to make sense financially is to have a decent fleet size. The only cost effective route I see management taking is to bring all jet aircraft to 9E. The Colgan side of the equation isn't relevant here.

The original question remains as follows: What does Mesaba have in their contract to prevent management from pulling airframes without SLI? Even if there is a section which says as much about pilots going with airframes the company may not do it, and it will go to arbitration. You can see how well the arbitrators decision on our scope with Colgan has gone.

Your group has endured quite a lot these past few years and deserves a break, unfortunately I don't see that coming at the hands of Pinnacle management. You do have my support though nonetheless.

 

[WildBlue]

As Higney85 said, there are a lot of ways to look at this. Do not forget LOA 21 signed between Pinnacle, Mesaba and the two MECs. I have not read it, but I did hear some folks who have talking about how mgmt may be using that as the means of bringing XJ pilots over.

 

[CptMurf]

As Higney85 said, there are a lot of ways to look at this. Do not forget LOA 21 signed between Pinnacle, Mesaba and the two MECs. I have not read it, but I did hear some folks who have talking about how mgmt may be using that as the means of bringing XJ pilots over.

It's not up to mgmt. That would be between pilot groups. And I wouldn't count on your newfound seniority based on a 13 year old LOA which has no correlation to the current situation.

 

[CptMurf]

Any management can choose not to follow a term in their contract. It would be up to the entire pilot group to stand up for the wrongs at that point. Whether that is arbitration or self help. The biggest force would be the investors knowing that the entire corporations future is in jeopardy due to poor labor relations.
There are provisions in our contract for everything that is happening. Our unions will have a strong say if we stay together on this. Real world example at XJ... Our organizing all unionized labor groups against management in one unified voice during the BK.

 

[kmox29]

Unfortunately the pilots are not in charge. I've worked long enough for 9E to know how management runs this company, and the "never compromise savings" mantra will rear its ugly head.

You (pilots) have more power than you believe. The issue is, whether or not you'll use it effectively.

The original question remains as follows: What does Mesaba have in their contract to prevent management from pulling airframes without SLI?

Again, why aren't the Pinnacle pilots asking their MEC what they can do to ensure all groups don't get screwed by management?

 

[higney85]

Again, why aren't the Pinnacle pilots asking their MEC what they can do to ensure all groups don't get screwed by management?

Many actually are. I'm seeing why FI has a bad rap of being truthless bashing at times but I will say many are asking for a way to have guys come over with airframes in relative seniority. Our flying for sept still requires additional staffing- the 9E and XJ planes still must continue flying and attrition is up, hours are up, and the company even admits they are short. Ideally all the planes and all the current 9E/XJ/XJ furloughs will be flying them. If you look at this from a bird's eye view there are many avenues, some are legal, some are the company's ways to cost savings, some are ALPA merger policy (section 45 of the admin manual, accessible from your crewroom.alp.org library page). In the end what we all want is a good contract and a pilot group (overall) that has learned from DL/NWA and the mistakes of America west/ usair. Until the company truly puts out what they are looking for in terms of transfer/merger/strategic plan we are all spinning wheels in the mud with theories. The MEC's are talking and will all meet face to face when the big picture actually begins to be painted. I'd tell everyone to tell your reps what you want, but also think realistically as to the situation. Each group simply wanting a windfall will lead to arbitration. The LOA exists, so does other scope language.

 

[CptMurf]

I was with you till your last statement. The LOA is only being brought into this because your pilots are bringing it up as a way for a personal gain at XJ pilots expense. If you were interested in a fair integration, you would not entertain the idea of using it, and would not let your mgmt. even imply your using of it. It did not and does not apply to this type of situation. The pilots that used the LOA would tell you they did not lose out, nor feel screwed by it. I'll put you in contact with at least 10 of them if you would like to discuss it. Lastly, if it were used now, it would screw those pilots too. If you think they were screwed by us (they weren't), why are you insistent on screwing them over too?

 

[Superpilot92]

push for integration, dont let them whipsaw yall as a pilot group! Strength in numbers!!

 

[higney85]

Murf- I hear ya. Off the top of my head I see the following issues with the LOA that legal could tear apart. I bring it up because it IS in both contracts and mgmt WILL try to use it.

-written between mesaba and express, not pinnacle
-after effective date seniority transfer can be interpreted as 1:1
-CRJ's are not mentioned in either LOA
-the language implies a new contract removes the LOA, the LOA was included in the 2004 agreement, what about the essentially new deal from BK?

I'm not out to screw anybody, contrary to your assumptions.

 

[CptMurf]

The BK concessions are actually an LOA to the current agreement. Nothing in LOA 6/21 applies...express gone, date were specific to the LOA, fleet was specific to the LOA, etc. The only part of it still in play is the reciprocal agreement which states if the shoes are on the other foot, XJ pilots could go to 9E with "terms no less favorable that this agreement." Implying there would have to be a new LOA for that specific transfer.

This LOA has NO regard on this situation, has not been brought up by management (per rep), and is only been dicussed on Internet forums (mainly brought up by 9E pilots) as to how XJ pilots will be screwed in seniority integration. Until 9E pilots refuse to use this LOA in integration, the threat will be present for XJ guys. A threat from pilots, not mgmt.

 

[CptMurf]

When you state, " I refuse to except a 1-2 integration, will not entertain discussions with mgmt for the use of it, and will strike for it", then I will believe you are not for it. Until then, I will assume that you will use it for personal gain, against myself, my ability to provide for my family, and my fellow employees. I in turn state that I will not dicuss this as an option, will correct an fellow employee i hear state anything like this, and will not let my union use an integration method like this against 9L. Fair integration on to 1 list is what I want, but if it has to be 2 lists, there should not be significant gains by any one pilot group.