Mesaba CRJs to be "asset" transfer?

[dondk]

Even as a 9E guy I posted up all the relevant sections in the MSA (XJ) CBA and 9E CBA. The issue isn't if pilots go- it's at what level (SLi/LOA/other). All MEC's will get together when the company states their intentions, until then it's all theories. There is ALPA merger policy, there is an LOA, there is a purchase, a successor, a merger, a transfer. It's all in the legal aspects and the direction the company tries to take. We are all pilots with one foe, we pay a crap-ton (by word) in dues for ALPA legal- let the process work.

You doing your best Higney85, but you have an uphill battle. Keep up the fight though!

 

[Salukipilot4590]

This is gonna be ugly...

I'm sorry...I couldn't hear that over your avatar....sweet Jesus.

 

[kmox29]

It doesn't seem XJ pilots will be coming over with the jets. And if you think 9E management will help you or even the 9E MEC, you're in for a rude awakening. Our MEC has its own wars/problems within, let alone handle a situation like this. I can see management touting "asset transfer" and not "merger" therefore bypassing language within contract scope clauses. What exactly, to the WORD, is XJ scope protection? Someone post it here please. And what will prevent an asset transfer?

Good luck to you guys, you're gonna need it. And lube!

As an outside observer, it's interesting you wouldn't be saying, "We'll do out best to help out. We know this airline and management's attitude towards pilots. We won't let any pilot group get screwed."

Instead, you're continuing to do what management wants...divide and conquer. Very sad.

 

[CptMurf]

As an outside observer, it's interesting you wouldn't be saying, "We'll do out best to help out. We know this airline and management's attitude towards pilots. We won't let any pilot group get screwed."

Instead, you're continuing to do what management wants...divide and conquer. Very sad.

I agree.

The outspoken 9E pilots on these boards are doing a great disservice in a smooth integration and becoming a great regional with the best from all existing contracts.

I stated this before, but I will reiterate and change color for those that evidently do not see it or understand the difference.
Pinnacle Airlines did not purchase Mesaba Airlines! Pinnacle Holdings (Corp) did.

At a minimum, the XJ contract is in place and will continue "as is" on that side. XJ pilots welcome 9L guys and we will make it a smooth transition for you! Our Q rates are the same as our 200 rates listed on APC (about $3 less than our 900 rates).

With the transfer of aircraft to 9E, there are provisions that say the pilots have the opportunity to go with the aircraft. How is up do negotiations between our pilot groups. I would hope that the 9E guys would understand that the interation needs to be fair for everyone. But ALPA needs time to work it out, give them a chance would you.

Instead of beating your chest's on how XJ is screwed. Why don't you redirect that energy to Mgmt. and state how you want one seniority list (SLI) between the three, with the best of all contracts. Anything else and the whole corporation should shut down!!!!

 

[ricecake]

I agree.

The outspoken 9E pilots on these boards are doing a great disservice in a smooth integration and becoming a great regional with the best from all existing contracts.

I stated this before, but I will reiterate and change color for those that evidently do not see it or understand the difference.
Pinnacle Airlines did not purchase Mesaba Airlines! Pinnacle Holdings (Corp) did.

At a minimum, the XJ contract is in place and will continue "as is" on that side. XJ pilots welcome 9L guys and we will make it a smooth transition for you! Our Q rates are the same as our 200 rates listed on APC (about $3 less than our 900 rates).

With the transfer of aircraft to 9E, there are provisions that say the pilots have the opportunity to go with the aircraft. How is up do negotiations between our pilot groups. I would hope that the 9E guys would understand that the interation needs to be fair for everyone. But ALPA needs time to work it out, give them a chance would you.

Instead of beating your chest's on how XJ is screwed. Why don't you redirect that energy to Mgmt. and state how you want one seniority list (SLI) between the three, with the best of all contracts. Anything else and the whole corporation should shut down!!!!

As a 9E guy I agree with your position, this needs to be done right. I have told Mesaba guys in person and I'll do it here, no one is interested in destroying the Mesaba pilot group in taking all the jets with no SLI. Unfortunately the pilots are not in charge. I've worked long enough for 9E to know how management runs this company, and the "never compromise savings" mantra will rear its ugly head.

Phil and management have said more than once that the only way for the 900 operation to make sense financially is to have a decent fleet size. The only cost effective route I see management taking is to bring all jet aircraft to 9E. The Colgan side of the equation isn't relevant here.

The original question remains as follows: What does Mesaba have in their contract to prevent management from pulling airframes without SLI? Even if there is a section which says as much about pilots going with airframes the company may not do it, and it will go to arbitration. You can see how well the arbitrators decision on our scope with Colgan has gone.

Your group has endured quite a lot these past few years and deserves a break, unfortunately I don't see that coming at the hands of Pinnacle management. You do have my support though nonetheless.

 

[WildBlue]

As Higney85 said, there are a lot of ways to look at this. Do not forget LOA 21 signed between Pinnacle, Mesaba and the two MECs. I have not read it, but I did hear some folks who have talking about how mgmt may be using that as the means of bringing XJ pilots over.

 

[CptMurf]

As Higney85 said, there are a lot of ways to look at this. Do not forget LOA 21 signed between Pinnacle, Mesaba and the two MECs. I have not read it, but I did hear some folks who have talking about how mgmt may be using that as the means of bringing XJ pilots over.

It's not up to mgmt. That would be between pilot groups. And I wouldn't count on your newfound seniority based on a 13 year old LOA which has no correlation to the current situation.

 

[CptMurf]

Any management can choose not to follow a term in their contract. It would be up to the entire pilot group to stand up for the wrongs at that point. Whether that is arbitration or self help. The biggest force would be the investors knowing that the entire corporations future is in jeopardy due to poor labor relations.
There are provisions in our contract for everything that is happening. Our unions will have a strong say if we stay together on this. Real world example at XJ... Our organizing all unionized labor groups against management in one unified voice during the BK.

 

[kmox29]

Unfortunately the pilots are not in charge. I've worked long enough for 9E to know how management runs this company, and the "never compromise savings" mantra will rear its ugly head.

You (pilots) have more power than you believe. The issue is, whether or not you'll use it effectively.

The original question remains as follows: What does Mesaba have in their contract to prevent management from pulling airframes without SLI?

Again, why aren't the Pinnacle pilots asking their MEC what they can do to ensure all groups don't get screwed by management?

 

[higney85]

Again, why aren't the Pinnacle pilots asking their MEC what they can do to ensure all groups don't get screwed by management?

Many actually are. I'm seeing why FI has a bad rap of being truthless bashing at times but I will say many are asking for a way to have guys come over with airframes in relative seniority. Our flying for sept still requires additional staffing- the 9E and XJ planes still must continue flying and attrition is up, hours are up, and the company even admits they are short. Ideally all the planes and all the current 9E/XJ/XJ furloughs will be flying them. If you look at this from a bird's eye view there are many avenues, some are legal, some are the company's ways to cost savings, some are ALPA merger policy (section 45 of the admin manual, accessible from your crewroom.alp.org library page). In the end what we all want is a good contract and a pilot group (overall) that has learned from DL/NWA and the mistakes of America west/ usair. Until the company truly puts out what they are looking for in terms of transfer/merger/strategic plan we are all spinning wheels in the mud with theories. The MEC's are talking and will all meet face to face when the big picture actually begins to be painted. I'd tell everyone to tell your reps what you want, but also think realistically as to the situation. Each group simply wanting a windfall will lead to arbitration. The LOA exists, so does other scope language.

 

[CptMurf]

I was with you till your last statement. The LOA is only being brought into this because your pilots are bringing it up as a way for a personal gain at XJ pilots expense. If you were interested in a fair integration, you would not entertain the idea of using it, and would not let your mgmt. even imply your using of it. It did not and does not apply to this type of situation. The pilots that used the LOA would tell you they did not lose out, nor feel screwed by it. I'll put you in contact with at least 10 of them if you would like to discuss it. Lastly, if it were used now, it would screw those pilots too. If you think they were screwed by us (they weren't), why are you insistent on screwing them over too?

 

[Superpilot92]

push for integration, dont let them whipsaw yall as a pilot group! Strength in numbers!!

 

[higney85]

Murf- I hear ya. Off the top of my head I see the following issues with the LOA that legal could tear apart. I bring it up because it IS in both contracts and mgmt WILL try to use it.

-written between mesaba and express, not pinnacle
-after effective date seniority transfer can be interpreted as 1:1
-CRJ's are not mentioned in either LOA
-the language implies a new contract removes the LOA, the LOA was included in the 2004 agreement, what about the essentially new deal from BK?

I'm not out to screw anybody, contrary to your assumptions.

 

[CptMurf]

The BK concessions are actually an LOA to the current agreement. Nothing in LOA 6/21 applies...express gone, date were specific to the LOA, fleet was specific to the LOA, etc. The only part of it still in play is the reciprocal agreement which states if the shoes are on the other foot, XJ pilots could go to 9E with "terms no less favorable that this agreement." Implying there would have to be a new LOA for that specific transfer.

This LOA has NO regard on this situation, has not been brought up by management (per rep), and is only been dicussed on Internet forums (mainly brought up by 9E pilots) as to how XJ pilots will be screwed in seniority integration. Until 9E pilots refuse to use this LOA in integration, the threat will be present for XJ guys. A threat from pilots, not mgmt.

 

[CptMurf]

When you state, " I refuse to except a 1-2 integration, will not entertain discussions with mgmt for the use of it, and will strike for it", then I will believe you are not for it. Until then, I will assume that you will use it for personal gain, against myself, my ability to provide for my family, and my fellow employees. I in turn state that I will not dicuss this as an option, will correct an fellow employee i hear state anything like this, and will not let my union use an integration method like this against 9L. Fair integration on to 1 list is what I want, but if it has to be 2 lists, there should not be significant gains by any one pilot group.