Mesaba CRJs to be "asset" transfer?

[xjhawk]

I dont want to see anyone shafted but....
I have a hard time believing that XJ pilots would do what they are asking pinnacle pilots to do. It seems their feelings about 9E have been constant until this merger occurred.

What exactly are you saying. Do you realise that it is not Pinnacle Airlines and their pilots that bought Mesaba from Delta, it was the company that owns them that bought mesaba. So what we are trying to do as Mesaba pilots is to promote unity, a fair SLI for one seniority list(sometimes fair means everyone is not the happiest they can be) and a good comined contract. What dont we want you ask? idiots who think that Pinnnacle airlines and their pilots can rape our seniority list, think they can take our planes .....etc etc etc. Get this through all your minds right now, you are not the "buying airline", your owners are. How they want to split their aircraft up for their business plan is up to them. it is our job to remain united and get the best scenerio for SLI and the best contract for us all.

So as you can see we are not asking for anything we are not already offering. Oh and by the way, when NWA made 9E a CRJ airline and transfered the Saabs to XJ our union offered but was not obligated to give jobs and seniority to pilots that wanted to come with the planes. I will say it again, they did not have to do that good faith jesture. Oh and just ask those guys if they were happy with what they got, many are still here and still as happy as they can be at a regional who gets screwed all the time.

 

[xjhawk]

If the aircraft are transferred from Mesaba to Pinnacle then every pilot would have to be trained under the Pinnacle certificate. The same is true if the props are transferred to the Colgan certificate.

It may not require a full trianing even but I thinkit will get very expensive?

Am I missing something here?

Yes you are missing something, short course save the company A LOT of money. enough said.

 

[Ad Lib]

If the aircraft are transferred from Mesaba to Pinnacle then every pilot would have to be trained under the Pinnacle certificate. The same is true if the props are transferred to the Colgan certificate.

It may not require a full trianing even but I thinkit will get very expensive?

Am I missing something here?

Yes. Training can be a CD. Production cost less than a buck. Distribution cost $0.43 per pilot. Ask the NWA pilots. The amazing thing is, it worked!

What kind of scope, merger and fragmentation language does Mesaba have? While it would be nice for management and other pilot groups to do what they should do, most of the time in this business, they do what they have to do. What is the available leverage?

 

[kmox29]

I know who he works for and it doesn't really make a difference. One breath he is stating how the company wants to "divide and conquer" and then the next breath he is helping them out.

Not trying to fuel any fire. I want to see all 3 pilot groups work toward the best possible solution. I have been seeing a lot of "What can the XJ MEC do to stop this from happening?" type of comments (I'm assuming made from 9E pilots). So my response was somewhat tongue-in-cheek when I mentioned the Pinnacle MEC.

I would hope that the pilots are smart enough to see that it's a "we" issue. What can *we* do to ensure everyone is fairly treated. Comments like "The pilots are not in control." and "The Pinnacle MEC is too busy with our own problems to worry about everyone else." frighten me.

Apologies if I didn't make that clearer in my earlier post.

 

[RJLoser]

What exactly are you saying. Do you realise that it is not Pinnacle Airlines and their pilots that bought Mesaba from Delta, it was the company that owns them that bought mesaba. So what we are trying to do as Mesaba pilots is to promote unity, a fair SLI for one seniority list(sometimes fair means everyone is not the happiest they can be) and a good comined contract. What dont we want you ask? idiots who think that Pinnnacle airlines and their pilots can rape our seniority list, think they can take our planes .....etc etc etc. Get this through all your minds right now, you are not the "buying airline", your owners are. How they want to split their aircraft up for their business plan is up to them. it is our job to remain united and get the best scenerio for SLI and the best contract for us all.

So as you can see we are not asking for anything we are not already offering. Oh and by the way, when NWA made 9E a CRJ airline and transfered the Saabs to XJ our union offered but was not obligated to give jobs and seniority to pilots that wanted to come with the planes. I will say it again, they did not have to do that good faith jesture. Oh and just ask those guys if they were happy with what they got, many are still here and still as happy as they can be at a regional who gets screwed all the time.

I never said anything about 9E pilots buying XJ. What I did say was that until recently, XJ guys/gals had wanted nothing to do with and disrespect for 9E. Now you are asking solidarity from the 9E pilots. The trouble I have is believing that if the situation was reversed XJ pilots would be opening their arms to the 9E pilot group. Don't be confused, I am for a fair integration. It's the right way. I have just seen an elitist attitude from XJ pilots toward 9E pilots and have a hard time believing that attitude wouldn't transfer to a "screw em" belief attitude if the situation was reversed. Honestly, you don’t?

 

[Raskal]

What exactly are you saying. Do you realise that it is not Pinnacle Airlines and their pilots that bought Mesaba from Delta, it was the company that owns them that bought mesaba. So what we are trying to do as Mesaba pilots is to promote unity, a fair SLI for one seniority list(sometimes fair means everyone is not the happiest they can be) and a good comined contract. What dont we want you ask? idiots who think that Pinnnacle airlines and their pilots can rape our seniority list, think they can take our planes .....etc etc etc. Get this through all your minds right now, you are not the "buying airline", your owners are. How they want to split their aircraft up for their business plan is up to them. it is our job to remain united and get the best scenerio for SLI and the best contract for us all.

So as you can see we are not asking for anything we are not already offering. Oh and by the way, when NWA made 9E a CRJ airline and transfered the Saabs to XJ our union offered but was not obligated to give jobs and seniority to pilots that wanted to come with the planes. I will say it again, they did not have to do that good faith jesture. Oh and just ask those guys if they were happy with what they got, many are still here and still as happy as they can be at a regional who gets screwed all the time.

I'm sorry, but as an XJ pilot I have to agree with the statement that we wouldn't do what we are asking the Pinnacle pilots to do. We might, but we would do it kicking and screaming the entire way. Here's what I base this off of:

1. In the recent "FO pay correction", or whatever you'd like to call it, we all stood witness to some of the most childish, disgusting and flat out unprofessional behavior by the more senior among us in public, in the crew room(s) and in the flight deck toward the FO's rather than the union, where the idea actually originated. I am not referring to the issue, it doesn't matter what side you were on, I am referring only to the behavior. It was a divided, back stabbing whining mess.

2. Since day one at this company I have heard everyone from ground instructors (with about as much experience as a 6 year old) to senior captains repeatedly over the years proclaim themselves so much better than 9E in sooo many ways. It got old fast in initial training and downright aggravating since. It is completely unfounded arrogance that is and has been the biggest problem with this group of otherwise great people.

This pilot group would do everything in their power to annihilate another integrating pilot group with regards to seniority, and that includes selling out their own junior pilots to do it.

Realistically, the 9E group will do the same.

This is simply how it is in this industry. So, since we are in a position of disadvantage, we will tout the "peace, harmony and love" theme all the while issuing veiled threats to no one in particular...

I very much hope that we will have a smooth integration, but, honestly, I don't see it.

 

[Monster Buck]

What's to stop this scenario:

Next upcoming vacancies, all super senior pilots at Mesaba will bid to get on the CRJs, if they aren't already there. Who will stay in a turboprop that is slated to be killed end of 2011? So then you have the top top most senior pilots at XJ, all on the jets, looking for *some* way to come over in an asset transfer. Fine. Assume it happens. Just how can you possibly fairly integrate the 9E group with the most top senior Mesaba pilots that will come with the jets? If there is any 10+ year CA at Mesaba on the Saab, he will be bidding for the jet. Your future at the all-jet Pinnacle is far better than the all-prop Mesaba, considering Mesaba will lose the Saabs with the current Delta deal. There is no fair way to integrate a top super senior group within the 9E ranks. As for the comments regarding to let the union MECs deal with this, the 9E MEC sold out FOs twice, once in 2007, and once in 2009. Sorry for not having any faith in this whole process.

After reading this ridiculous scenario, its obvious you have no idea what you are talking about. You have no idea how bidding works at Mesaba, who is on what, or how integration may take place. Stop driving wedges between the groups with your dribble.

 

[xjhawk]

I'm sorry, but as an XJ pilot I have to agree with the statement that we wouldn't do what we are asking the Pinnacle pilots to do. We might, but we would do it kicking and screaming the entire way. Here's what I base this off of:

1. In the recent "FO pay correction", or whatever you'd like to call it, we all stood witness to some of the most childish, disgusting and flat out unprofessional behavior by the more senior among us in public, in the crew room(s) and in the flight deck toward the FO's rather than the union, where the idea actually originated. I am not referring to the issue, it doesn't matter what side you were on, I am referring only to the behavior. It was a divided, back stabbing whining mess.

2. Since day one at this company I have heard everyone from ground instructors (with about as much experience as a 6 year old) to senior captains repeatedly over the years proclaim themselves so much better than 9E in sooo many ways. It got old fast in initial training and downright aggravating since. It is completely unfounded arrogance that is and has been the biggest problem with this group of otherwise great people.

This pilot group would do everything in their power to annihilate another integrating pilot group with regards to seniority, and that includes selling out their own junior pilots to do it.

Realistically, the 9E group will do the same.

This is simply how it is in this industry. So, since we are in a position of disadvantage, we will tout the "peace, harmony and love" theme all the while issuing veiled threats to no one in particular...

I very much hope that we will have a smooth integration, but, honestly, I don't see it.

I will go with the 10% rule on the number of idiots at any company in any industry. The FO wage adjustment brought out the bad side in a lot of people-I could rant on and on about that but it was right that that was not enacted and it was a shame that so many people voted for it-two wrongs do not make a right (and I was an FO and felt screwed and still feel i was screwed by our company and union in both the 04' contract and bankruptcy). Both those times the union had a chance to raise the bar for FO pay rates. The shame in that matter was the amount of ranting by FO's on these forums calling captains greedy-which by the way brought on some of our captains being just as stupid about talking about FO's wanting to take money out of their pockets. Yes that is all in the past, and there will be those same idiots from both companys who talk crap. I have never looked down on any pilot group, I tend to like to judge each person I meet individually lol.

Anyways, its time to come together and put things in the past to rest and be strong together. for all you Mesaba guys out there realise that the 9E pilots have been fighting for a fair contract for 5 years and now we must fight together. We have a good contract but we all need a better contract for all of us.

 

[mesaba13]

I think most of the negative comments have been about 9E as a company rather than the pilots. I have met great people from 9E and have had family that worked there, but you just don't hear many speaking positively about the company. We have some XJ guys that are negative on Mesaba but I think for the most part people like working here and are treated fairly.

Look, Seniority is a huge deal to everyone and think we all have to be prepared to lose some whether it be through arbritration or negotiated between the groups.

 

[flap operator]

Wow Raskal... I guess we see where you stand on the solidarity issue. I sense that you joined XJ after bankruptcy and were perhaps even a street captain with experience from another regional. I think you're sorely misjudging your own pilot group. I disagree with you whole heartedly... I believe if the tables were turned despite our past differences, the XJ pilot would do the right thing. Just as we have in the past.

You and all the guys that joined after bankruptcy need to fully understand what the pilot group has endured in the last 10+ years. Once you fully understand that you'll see why we are the way we are today. I hope that the majority of your end of the seniority list don't feel the way you do. If they do, we're all in for a rough ride during these new times at XJ. We need to be one, solid and cohesive pilot group going forward. In fact, ALL XJ labor needs to be solid and cohesive. Just like we were post 9/11, contract '04 and bankruptcy.

 

[Raskal]

Wow Raskal... I guess we see where you stand on the solidarity issue. I sense that you joined XJ after bankruptcy and were perhaps even a street captain with experience from another regional. I think you're sorely misjudging your own pilot group. I disagree with you whole heartedly... I believe if the tables were turned despite our past differences, the XJ pilot would do the right thing. Just as we have in the past.

You and all the guys that joined after bankruptcy need to fully understand what the pilot group has endured in the last 10+ years. Once you fully understand that you'll see why we are the way we are today. I hope that the majority of your end of the seniority list don't feel the way you do. If they do, we're all in for a rough ride during these new times at XJ. We need to be one, solid and cohesive pilot group going forward. In fact, ALL XJ labor needs to be solid and cohesive. Just like we were post 9/11, contract '04 and bankruptcy.

You are partially right, I am a downgraded street captain, my old posts show that. I had no experience at a previous regional, I came from another part of the industry. As to where I stand, I'm not at all unhappy here, if I were I would have left already. This job has given me exactly the things I want in more areas than my previous employer, even with the pay cut. I don't think my position will improve with this merger/buyout, nor do I think it terrible in general.

However, I do think this list is very divided along seniority, to think otherwise is to turn a blind eye to events over the past year. To only clarify, I am not on one side of the FO pay issue or the other, personally I thought it was a waste of time from the get go and tried not to get involved. What was so disturbing to me is how this "above the fray, do the right thing, just a bunch of really good guys" pilot group turned into the grumpy old men of the US Air/America West merger and immediately turned upon each other. It sucked, and to hear about excuses for behavior due to a bankruptcy is just silly.

I am hopeful for something different, but I am also realistic. Just because I didn't work here during the bankruptcy doesn't mean I didn't hear about how incredibly miserable it was, I've known people here for a long time. The only bright spot was a fairly close knit pilot group. I think that group has been damaged more than you care to admit, and I hear it from both seats.

We'll see, but in the end I don't believe we will have as much say as any of the groups would like anyway. As someone once said, fair integration means no one is happy.

 

[flap operator]

Raskal - fair enough. Indeed this is a very different pilot group today than during bankruptcy, contract '04 and our post 9/11 drama. Much of that is because nearly half the seniority list was hired after 2007 and has been here no more than 3 years. That half of the seniority list wasn't exposed to the things pre 2007 and therefore walked into a completely different company with a different attitude. Post 2007 hires have a completely different outlook on the state of affairs at the company than anyone here pre 2007. One can argue even the post 2007 group is fractured. Some guys spent no time on reserve and have no clue what reserve is like! What is true, is that the pre 2007 pilot group had resolve. We were strong, unified and maybe even stubborn. We stuck together and took our beatings like professionals. The struggle now, is to keep that same attitude with our new pilot group. Many have no clue what will hit them shortly. Many have no clue how bad it can really be. I'll tell you one thing, this new age of Mesaba will bring new meaning to the concept of how great (in general) things have been post 2007. Of course, all up until the downward spiral we find ourselves in today.

Maybe you're right about how you see our pilot group, but I hope you're wrong. The strength, resolve and unity demonstrated between 2001 and 2007 by the Mesaba pilots, will be paramount to the success of the entire pilot group that works for Pinnacle Holdings (PCL, Colgan and XJ). One list, one contract should be our new mantra.

 

[xjhawk]

wow, polite and good words said on both sides. I am impressed. Everyone take a look on how to treat a fellow pilot who you disagree with just as I am . Its a start anyways. Any 9E pilots want to join in and get into this new way of communicating? I am pretty harsh on here when I see someone posting something that is more rant and less fact, but i think you two just set the tone. BTW i am not being sarcastic

 

[higney85]

I thought hugs weren't approved on FI. I'll give you a handshake and priority on the Jumpseat... Working to get some of your furloughs back into a cockpit too.

Was that nice enough?

 

[CptMurf]

Raskal - fair enough. Indeed this is a very different pilot group today than during bankruptcy, contract '04 and our post 9/11 drama. Much of that is because nearly half the seniority list was hired after 2007 and has been here no more than 3 years. That half of the seniority list wasn't exposed to the things pre 2007 and therefore walked into a completely different company with a different attitude. Post 2007 hires have a completely different outlook on the state of affairs at the company than anyone here pre 2007. One can argue even the post 2007 group is fractured. Some guys spent no time on reserve and have no clue what reserve is like! What is true, is that the pre 2007 pilot group had resolve. We were strong, unified and maybe even stubborn. We stuck together and took our beatings like professionals. The struggle now, is to keep that same attitude with our new pilot group. Many have no clue what will hit them shortly. Many have no clue how bad it can really be. I'll tell you one thing, this new age of Mesaba will bring new meaning to the concept of how great (in general) things have been post 2007. Of course, all up until the downward spiral we find ourselves in today.

Maybe you're right about how you see our pilot group, but I hope you're wrong. The strength, resolve and unity demonstrated between 2001 and 2007 by the Mesaba pilots, will be paramount to the success of the entire pilot group that works for Pinnacle Holdings (PCL, Colgan and XJ). One list, one contract should be our new mantra.

++++1 (needed 5 characters)

 

[skyguy40]

I have posted this on another thread also, but applies here too. So the furloughed Mesaba pilots will get preferential hiring at 9e. You get to keep your seniority for the purposes of pay and benefits but you are like a new hire in every other way. So here’s my question: Will one group of Mesaba pilots be treated differently than another Mesaba group? Think asset transfer! Why would they get a better deal than their fellow brothers and sisters? Just asking!

 

[CptMurf]

I have posted this on another thread also, but applies here too. So the furloughed Mesaba pilots will get preferential hiring at 9e. You get to keep your seniority for the purposes of pay and benefits but you are like a new hire in every other way. So here’s my question: Will one group of Mesaba pilots be treated differently than another Mesaba group? Think asset transfer! Why would they get a better deal than their fellow brothers and sisters? Just asking!

They also keep XJ number for later integration. These individuals will have a job immediately as a new hire, but will be integrated later (once that is negotiated) and may jump ahead in the list at that point.

 

[higney85]

I have posted this on another thread also, but applies here too. So the furloughed Mesaba pilots will get preferential hiring at 9e. You get to keep your seniority for the purposes of pay and benefits but you are like a new hire in every other way. So here’s my question: Will one group of Mesaba pilots be treated differently than another Mesaba group? Think asset transfer! Why would they get a better deal than their fellow brothers and sisters? Just asking!

There is no seniority transfer. There is longevity transfered, but only for time
worked (not furlough + work which would be
straight DOH). These guys are essentially new hires when there would be preferential interviews it would actually be job placement and pilots get to keep time worked. This in theory is what the DCPA and the ALPA "one list" dream has included. Think about this n a grand scale- nobody is hurt, and we can help our fellow pilots.

The overall seniority list is a different can of worms. I don't have the exact date but I believe at the end of the month there is a meeting with all 3 MEC's and national to work on that. The guys who come to 9E from the XJ sen list (furloughs) will retain their mesaba number if/for an sli arrangement. There is plenty of banter about the sli and job placement but both are seperate and the job placement should show that the MEC's and the company for actually willing to pay guys at their accrued longevity instead of as a "off the street new hire".

 

[xjhawk]

All I can say is that it looks like our management is being told by their overlords to start to dig in for a fight to stop the talk of a single seniority list as per the new FAQ on mymesaba. Our union has to fight to stop this as it would screw more of us than any other scenerio including making intergrating the super senior 900 guys difficult for the 98E pilots. This is not good news and once again I think that other airlines (Pinnacle) has gotten this news before we did as I heard this said last week by some pinnacle pilot on a web board. Let me just hope that it is date of hire if we get asset tranfered and not a single seniority list and I have to leave the mesaba contract to the contract issues they are having. if I am asset transfered over there then I want our contract to go with us and my date of hire. If people want to bring up the LOA that gives us a 2-1 for our seniority I had nothing to do with some letter of agreement signed 10-15 years ago! Where is our unions response to this? I have always said that they cannot just show their hand in their negotiations but this is rediculous. I would like to know that 9E's union is with us and not going to offer us some rediculous ratio for our seniority! We are being bought by a holdings company, not Pinnacle. So if I get transfered to them, I should stand on an equal footing as any other pilot. DATE OF HIRE-That being said I would rather have one list, one contract and a fair intergration.

 

[Monster Buck]

....ratios for number of wide CA, narrow CA, wide FO, narrow FO then average and apply, Delta/NWA, so 900/200/large turboprop/small turboprop. No one should be doing straight ratios like 2 for 1 or 3 for 1, those days should be gone. So it doesn't matter exactly how senior who is on what, it is the number of pilots in each cat. for that size of ac. to determine the ratio for integration.