MESA TA passes 78%

[Desiday]

You Mesa guys are pathetic, a real disgrace.

 

[Sphincter Boy]

Well that should just about torpedo any hopes of my sister airline (CALEX) getting a decent contract.

Speak for yourself. I for one will rather see CALEX go tits up than get a crappy contract. Anyone have the number to that truck driving school?

 

[328dude]

(((((((((.) ((((((((((.) ((((((((((.)

(((((((((.) (((((((((.)


Psss, hey Mesa Dudes.


Please reattach your balls below.





OO OO OO

OO OO


Should look like this when you get a pair

(((((((((((((((.)
OO

Have a nice day

 

[meanstreak]

I honestly will not ley Mesa on anymore of my jumpseats. I don't care if you take my name down and ban me from your airline, you will never ride with me again.

 

[Boeingman]

Speak for yourself. I for one will rather see CALEX go tits up than get a crappy contract. Anyone have the number to that truck driving school?

Hey, I'm on your side pal, but that doesn't change the fact this has just made your leverage with management that much tougher.

If you want to live in fantasyland and expect some exponential pay raise in light of this....go ahead.

 

[Snapperhead]

Anyone have a copy of the agreement? Please post it so we can all see how **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ty it is.

 

[bahjaus]

I am not a Mesa pilot, and I don't agree with all the angry rhetoric going on here. Sometimes it seems to me that most pilots actually live in a bubble and are not aware of what's going on around them. I am going to provide facts only, and lets' try to have an intelligent debate here without name calling:

Most posts infer that ACA, Comair, Air Wisconsin, Skywest, ASA, CoEx are in the same category as Mesa financially. It's true that that they all fly similar equipment, but if you are saying that any 2 companies flying the same airplane should pay the same regardless of their financial health, then you should be bashing not only Mesa but Spirit, Midwest Express, America West, AirTran, Frontier, JetBlue for flying similar equipment for a fraction of what UAL, AMR, DAL pay. If you wanna go down this route and be consistent, then you should blame the SWA pilots for signing a low-cost long-term contract back in 94 to allow their company to grow aggressively and steal market share from the big 4.
Let's compare cash positions for Mesa, ACA and SKYW, from the latest SEC filings:
Mesa: $39.8 million.
ACA: $243 million
SKYW: around $400 million
If this doesn't tell you that there are significant differences between what Mesa can afford and what the other 2 can, then you have a problem.
Comair had a profit margin in the 20's when their results were public before being bought by DAL. All the people here saying Mesa is profitable up the wazoo. Fact is Mesa declared losses for 4 out of the last 5 years, they lost $9.3 million in 2002 and $48.1 million in 2001. Go read their SEC filings.

Last point I want to make to all who are saying that this will lower the bar in the industry, if your management comes to you saying hey Mesa got this we want you to do the same, then you have a very simple choice vote no. If you vote yes then start complaining that it's Mesa pilots fault like the WO pilots are doing now, then you are contradicting yourself. If you are saying to the Mesa pilots to vote no to their TA even if it will cost them their job because it'll preserve the bar for the industry, then you should also vote no to your management even if it'll cost you YOUR job for the sake of raising the bar.

 

[BoredToDeath]

bahjaus,

Would you care to expand on this statement?

**. If you vote yes then start complaining that it's Mesa pilots fault like the WO pilots are doing now, then you are contradicting yourself. **

 

[bahjaus]

Sure,

WO pilots voted for concessions lately and most of them on this board are complaing that they had to do so to preserve their jobs, i.e match Mesa's rates... As a WO pilot you have a choice to vote no to the concessions and be out of a job, you could have made that choice but you didn't.

Now you are asking the Mesa pilots to do what you couldn't do, vote no and face unemployment. It doesn't sem very consistent to me.

 

[Beantown]

bahjaus,

Would you care to expand on this statement?

**. If you vote yes then start complaining that it's Mesa pilots fault like the WO pilots are doing now, then you are contradicting yourself. **

Let me take a shot. The WO pilots say that they are forced to vote yes for concessions b/c of Mesa. Mesa pilots say they had to vote yes to this crappy TA b/c of Freedumb. All groups voted yes to save there jobs. Yes or No? (If no, why did the WO vote yes? In the case of PSA why did your MEC?)

It becomes contradictory for the WO pilots who caved in to save there jobs to call the Mesa pilots (insert any post from above) b/c they did the same. You did the same thing weather you like it or not. Sorry guys.

Bahjuas , It's good to read a factual, intellectual, thought-out post on a board filled with overacting, uneducated (on this issue) immature people. This thread is sad and shows alot about people who call themselves professionals. -Bean

 

[mullet]

Let me make it emphatically clear that I also agree that pilot wages are not the cause of the airlines taking it so much in the shorts. We will forever be the excuse.

The only thing I have agree with you on your whole post.
the 3 main cost's Airlines can rely on
no particular order
#1 interest what they owe on their debt (united should of taking care of that in the 90's instead of trying to take over the world.)
#2 fuel- (they can ballpark per price of barrel)
#3 PAYROLL- you have to pay your people
So please explain to me how MESA has fallen on hard times!!!!!!!
Interest on debt??? doubt it much.
Fuel??? equal across the board.
Payroll???? MESA= Bottom of the food chain!!!!!!!!
MGMT now has the winning formula!!!!!!!!
Well done boys!!

 

[mullet]

Yes or No? (If no, why did the WO vote yes? In the case of PSA why did your MEC?)

Huhhhh? Didn't get to vote!!!!
We're BANKRUPT!!!!!
US AIR=PSA=PDT=ALG!!!!!!!!!

 

[mckpickle]

Go on keep telling yourselves that voting no would mean your out of a job. You people are so brain washed by JO its funny. I mean your all scared. NEWS FLASH. He couldn't have shut down the whole freaking airline you f&#^ing idiots! Remember he has shareholders to awnser to. AND then all the flying that Freedom is doing would be considered STRUCK WORK!!!!! Every pilot would be put on the scab list. Thats some pretty good motivation not to fly the MESA routes! But you ladies cried in your beer afraid JO was going to replace all of you. Jesus you people are stupid!

 

[nimtz]

If you want to live in fantasyland and expect some exponential pay raise in light of this....go ahead.

He doesn't live in fantasy land and his sentiments are very representational of our whole pilot group. We will drive xjet right into the ground rather then go five years doing what we're doing now. Hey Gordo knows this, which is why he has all sorts of poison pills in the Agreement with Express that allows him to take the jets. So he'll start up some scab outfit and we'll all be out of a job. Big f*cking deal!

Hey I'd get screwed by it, but I have principals and pride unlike the Mesa group. I'm young enough to take a hit in my profession, so I dare Gordon to try and play his cards on us. He won't be able to put those nice stickers 'Working Together' stickers on the doors of our airplanes anymore. I would rather lose what I've done so far rather then face the next 10 years of my career making 25K a year with NO work rules. Too bad Mesa pilots didn't have the balls to call Orenstein's bluff.

Those who went before us in this profession made it the rewarding career that it can be. I will not see their hard work undone because of pieces of sh*t like Johhny Orenstein and losers like many of your coworkers at CAL. You Mesa guys baffle me! Why on earth would any educated person want to work a job that causes so many sacrifices in your life, but only make 25K a year with 9 days at home per month! There is no golden rainbow for you to grab in a few years. American isn't going to snatch you up the minute you have 500 hours turbine PIC.

 

[Boeingman]

He doesn't live in fantasy land and his sentiments are very representational of our whole pilot group. We will drive xjet right into the ground rather then go five years doing what we're doing now. Hey Gordo knows this, which is why he has all sorts of poison pills in the Agreement with Express that allows him to take the jets. So he'll start up some scab outfit and we'll all be out of a job. Big f*cking deal!

Hey I'd get screwed by it, but I have principals and pride unlike the Mesa group. I'm young enough to take a hit in my profession, so I dare Gordon to try and play his cards on us. He won't be able to put those nice stickers 'Working Together' stickers on the doors of our airplanes anymore. I would rather lose what I've done so far rather then face the next 10 years of my career making 25K a year with NO work rules. Too bad Mesa pilots didn't have the balls to call Orenstein's bluff.

Those who went before us in this profession made it the rewarding career that it can be. I will not see their hard work undone because of pieces of sh*t like Johhny Orenstein and losers like many of your coworkers at CAL. You Mesa guys baffle me! Why on earth would any educated person want to work a job that causes so many sacrifices in your life, but only make 25K a year with 9 days at home per month! There is no golden rainbow for you to grab in a few years. American isn't going to snatch you up the minute you have 500 hours turbine PIC.

Like I said, good luck. Your "sentiments" representing the Express pilots have zero leverage when economic pressures like this TA are brought to bear on the industry. Don't shoot the messenger.

As far as the "losers", the strike for me was a long time ago. If anyone has the right to pass judgement on the CAL ALPA debacle it is people like me that spent 25 months on a picket line. I get a little tired of hearing comments that destroy unity among the CAL/ CALEX group. Besides, as painfull as it is to admit, those "losers" are all pulling over $150k a year and laughing all the way to the bank. I'd bet none of those scabs are dying to trade places with some XJET F/O.

BTW talk is real cheap. Looking back on our strike, the scabs that crossed were usually the ones shooting their mouths off prior to the walkout about "shutting this place down".

 

[Rottweiller]

First off it isn't over until ALPA signs it off. Hopefully if enough voices are heard then just maybe ALPA will throw this contract where it belongs, in the cr@pper.

E-mail Captain Woerth with your feelings (and be professional about it) at

Captain D. Woerth

 

[nimtz]

As far as the "losers", the strike for me was a long time ago. If anyone has the right to pass judgement on the CAL ALPA debacle it is people like me that spent 25 months on a picket line. I get a little tired of hearing comments that destroy unity among the CAL/ CALEX group. Besides, as painfull as it is to admit, those "losers" are all pulling over $150k a year and laughing all the way to the bank. I'd bet none of those scabs are dying to trade places with some XJET F/O.

Having shared crashpads and commuted long enough I can say with full certainity that 95% of the line crossers are the most pathethic people I have ever had the displeasure of knowing. From Rene Minjares to Jimmy Tripson, they show a character and selfishness that makes me care less whether they laugh all the way to the bank. Stephen Wolf laughed all the way to the bank too, but he'll look real hard to find respect in life. Just as they wouldn't want my seat, I sure as h*ll don't want their lives. Unity between our two pilot groups is in jeporday, because of these individuals.
You are right in saying our contract will get much more difficult. I knew many months ago that something like this could happen and I'm sure our negotiation committe did. However, difficulity doesn't mean you quit. There are many days and maybe another bankrupcty between now and a TA getting passed. My resumes, both the aviation and the real world one, will continue to be updated.

 

[Jetlink]

He doesn't live in fantasy land and his sentiments are very representational of our whole pilot group. We will drive xjet right into the ground rather then go five years doing what we're doing now. Hey Gordo knows this, which is why he has all sorts of poison pills in the Agreement with Express that allows him to take the jets. So he'll start up some scab outfit and we'll all be out of a job. Big f*cking deal!

Hey I'd get screwed by it, but I have principals and pride unlike the Mesa group. I'm young enough to take a hit in my profession, so I dare Gordon to try and play his cards on us. He won't be able to put those nice stickers 'Working Together' stickers on the doors of our airplanes anymore. I would rather lose what I've done so far rather then face the next 10 years of my career making 25K a year with NO work rules. Too bad Mesa pilots didn't have the balls to call Orenstein's bluff.

Those who went before us in this profession made it the rewarding career that it can be. I will not see their hard work undone because of pieces of sh*t like Johhny Orenstein and losers like many of your coworkers at CAL. You Mesa guys baffle me! Why on earth would any educated person want to work a job that causes so many sacrifices in your life, but only make 25K a year with 9 days at home per month! There is no golden rainbow for you to grab in a few years. American isn't going to snatch you up the minute you have 500 hours turbine PIC.

AMEN brother.....XJT will no longer exist if I can do anything about it. There is absolutely no excuse to live under "Regional" wages as has been previous practice.

Unlike our good friend at CAL who responded to this, I am sure there will be more than enough of them who would love to cross another line. They have no leverage, we still do.

Its when you get into the DCI d/b/a ACA, ASA, Comair, CHQ, SKYW - THAT is when you lose leverage. I can only imagine what the ASA contract will look like....CMRs is pathetic for a 3 month strike.

Liveable/competitive wages for the job we do or no more airline.

 

[Publishers]

brotherhood

Well I guess this means that there goes all that brotherhood thing that is offered up on here so much. This reality thing must suck when he rears it's ugly head.

 

[Boeingman]

Having shared crashpads and commuted long enough I can say with full certainity that 95% of the line crossers are the most pathethic people I have ever had the displeasure of knowing.

From the above crash pad and commuting comment I seriously doubt you've run into the true broad cross section of pilots at CAL. Regarding the commuting I am to assume you've been on the jumpseat for this in depth analysis? Did you discuss your feelings then or pull out the scab list before you accepted a ride from one of these guys?

My point is I could tell you many stories of non scabs who are loyal ALPA members that absolutley despise Express. The attitude and resentment towards XJET I have heard crossing the pond would make your eyes open. Most are in the 90 hire range. I can also point out some other pathetic people who did not cross a picket line. And there were some real clowns that were on strike who I thank god did not return to CAL. Point is, you're extremely biased over an event that you had nothing to do with. And quite frankly I simply don't agree with your assessment, strike issues aside.

From Rene Minjares to Jimmy Tripson, they show a character and selfishness that makes me care less whether they laugh all the way to the bank.

While I do not condone Rene's actions in 83, he did put forth a great deal of effort to bring in the IACP. Not much of a union, but it was a start. He also was a very strong supporter of the Express pilots. Rene was one of the few that pushed to keep you guys within the same MEC. It sounds to me like you are just labeling and not looking at the facts. For every "T" I can think of several non scab CAL pilots that feel like he does, they just don't get the publicity as you know who. I will make no further comment about him. Nothing really needs to be said.

Just as they wouldn't want my seat, I sure as h*ll don't want their lives.

One of the greatest letdowns I had on my return was thinking how misreable these guys must be. I can't tell you how far off base I was in that thinking. I can think of none that I have run into since my return that have any regrets about crossing. Most had a score to settle with ALPA and were overjoyed to cross our picket line.

Let me ask you something that no one can or will answer. Why do you think so many of those scabs on the list are ex ALPA members? Or were ex since the amnesty?

Unity between our two pilot groups is in jeporday, because of these individuals.

You're not going to like this but people like you, our ex IAH CA rep,and every attitude in between are the problem.The finger pointing, whining, labeling and off base comments serve no function but to divide the pilot group. You both just represent extreme and opposite ends of a spectrum. If you really believe that it is just the pilots who crossed are affecting unity you have a lot to learn. I spend a lot of time in CAL cockpits with pilots from many different backgrounds and your comments are very inaccurate. Most of the people who crossed are strongly for a SSL, and hope the bar gets raised with your negotiations. You're cutting off your nose to spite your face over this situation, believe me.

You are right in saying our contract will get much more difficult. I knew many months ago that something like this could happen and I'm sure our negotiation committe did. However, difficulity doesn't mean you quit. There are many days and maybe another bankrupcty between now and a TA getting passed.

Who is saying to quit? I'm saying at some point you must let the element of economic and industry reality set in. This Mesa TA is a very serious detriment and it will absolutley diminsh the prospects and hopes for the XJET pilots. It is disgusting.

My resumes, both the aviation and the real world one, will continue to be updated.

Probably a good idea. I think you are going to be very bitter and disappointed when the XJET contract is (when) ratified. Just a hunch, I have no wish of a substandard TA for XJET. In fact, I believe we must get the RJ payscale up industry wide or it will eventually drag down mainline contracts.

We will see career RJ pilots and I think there are many guys who will never see the cockpit of a Boeing or Airbus.

 

[skypine27]

Well at least Mesa allready lost the SkyWest jumpseat when they threatened us to take FreeDumb jumpseaters. I'm thankful I dont have to see either one of those bastards in my cockpit asking for a ride.

 

[jetdriven]

Liveable/competitive wages for the job we do or no more airline.

what would you do if Gordo shifted the 100 new ERJ deliveries to a non-union alter ego startup airline then replaced one aircraft of yours with one of theirs every week. You can shut down XJET if you wish but the result is the same. Shut down XJET and build the startup. just like mesa and freedom air.

 

[Freight Dog]

JetDriven,

With the lawsuit filed against Mesa by ALPA regarding Freedumb, and given the decision about CCAir, it was only a matter of time before Freedumb would be declared a single carrier as well. However, you lacked patience and will to make a stand.

As such, the negotiations came to standoff and you blinked first.

Enjoy your contract.

 

[BoredToDeath]

Sure,

WO pilots voted for concessions lately and most of them on this board are complaing that they had to do so to preserve their jobs, i.e match Mesa's rates... As a WO pilot you have a choice to vote no to the concessions and be out of a job, you could have made that choice but you didn't.

Now you are asking the Mesa pilots to do what you couldn't do, vote no and face unemployment. It doesn't sem very consistent to me.

bahjas and Bean,


I can see how you would think that its the same but it is very different. The WO's are part of a bankrupt company, a company that has not seen a profit in years. Mesa is not bankrupt and is indeed showing profit. If concessions were not "given" by the WO's, they would have been "taken", and they would have taken alot more than we gave. The things that the WO's gave to US Airways Group will come back over time. Mesa however will have to renegotiate for something better in a few years.

To make it easier for you to understand, had the WO's voted No on consessions some think that group would have put us out of business. I don't belive it would have come to that because of the money that the WOs bring to Group. I belive that Group would have seeked concessions through the BK court and keeped us in business with the worst contracts in the world.

Mesa on the other hand is not in dire financial straits and the contract they just signed is not a concessionary contract. Its mearly what the MEC said was the best they could get and will surley force every regional to come down too. If you don't belive me just ask one of our FAs. They were told directly from Dave that if their new TA doesn't look like Mesa's there will be no deal. With that being said how can you tell me that what Mesa does will not affect anyone else?


Now the hate that we (the WO's)have for your company goes alot farther back than recent events. It really is the simple fact that the WOs are US Airways Express and yet there are so many other companies with our name on their tails. And all we can do is sit back and watch the contracting of our flying continue while our Mainline and WO brothers are on the street. As long as your cheap it'll never stop and with your newest contract we can see that it will never stop.

 

[big dog1]

Im am one of few NO voters, I would love to get all the names of the yes vote and pass them out they are a bunch of **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** they will be the one bitchig in 2 or 3 years about QOL or pay. I dont blame any of you for being pissed we shouldnt of had to vote on this crap TA, but hey the USair/J4J pilots will be back .Great job ALPA.

Go to this site ayone can sign on it JO and Mesa pilots let them Know how you feel!!!


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freemesaairlinesforum/?yguid=124225566

 

[FR8mastr]

don't think for one second that D. Woerth will stop the MESA TA. He and ALPA could give a rats @ss about anyone not in a "large Jet". WE were told at the leadership conferance at ALPA HQ that it is a "brokering of interests" that dictate what battles are fought. I will leave to each individual to decide what they think brokering of interests means.

 

[fam62c]

Unconditional Surrender

Great, Mesa pilots surrendered without even putting up a fight. One threat from JO and they caved. As I recall the last Mesa contract was "a great victory for job secuity" because it united the Mesa divisions and was designed to prevent the divisions from being played off against one another. JO played from the Larry Risley playbook and won for another 5+ years. The Mesa attorneys will have 5+ years to figure out a way to get around this scope language and I guarantee they will find a way to do it. On top of all this half of the Mesa expansion doesn't even go to Mesa pilots!! Some of the people that voted for this will be sitting in the right seat of 1900's while they watch furloughed UsAir pilots fly from the left seat of new RJ's. How twisted is that?

What the hell is the profession coming to, I just don't understand it. We are our own worst enemies, management can just let us fight ourselves to see who is willing to work for the least amount of money to get to fly an airplane. I guess pilots at small airlines have been working for so little for long that we are really starting to believe that's all we are worth. If things get better good luck trying to find the money to pay off your prorated training agreements so you can leave Mesa. This is truly a new low. This agreement will set us back 5 years and now other carriers will try to start non-union divisions as a way to force pilot groups to accept lousy agreements in exchange for "job security." Somebody else will have to fight this fight because the Mesa pilots didn't have the courage to hold the line.

Congratulations, your "scope" language will prevent anyone else from taking your jobs. I don't think you need to worry now anyway because nobody can AFFORD to take your jobs. Mesa is now the WalMart of the airline business, and like WalMart employees, Mesa employees will do all of the work and receive none of the rewards that come from the economic successes acheived by having massive cost advantages over the competition.

Good thing the Mesa pilots were not around in revolutionary war times or we would still be a British Colony! You should be ashamed of yourselves.

 

[Nindiri]

What a bunch of friggin hypocrites. With the exception of the Comair pilots, I haven't seen any of the rest of you walking off the job to "raise the bar", yet you're all too eager to tell the Mesa pilots what to do. Of course it never seems to bother you that you do the same thing and undercut the mainline pilots; I guess that's different.

Now, I'm even seeing people on here threatening to deny them the jumpseat. Very unprofessional. You need to grow up and stop blaming other people for all your problems. It's one thing to have an opinion about their contract and to express it, but it's really childish to call them names and refuse jumpseats. While I think they could have done better, it is not my place to judge them, and Mesa pilots are always welcome in my jumpseat.

 

[Rottweiller]

What a bunch of friggin hypocrites. With the exception of the Comair pilots, I haven't seen any of the rest of you walking off the job to "raise the bar", yet you're all too eager to tell the Mesa pilots what to do. Of course it never seems to bother you that you do the same thing and undercut the mainline pilots; I guess that's different.

What a load of cr@p! AirWis had been at the table for nearly 2 years trying to get a better and fairer contract. We had the go ahead for a strike, our MEC were holding out for the best. 3 strike centers were up and running and informational picketing was being done at ATW, ORD, DEN. The strike office was manned every day and on the final day pilots were there in force, all being funded by ALPA and with ALPA National staff at the strike office. With less than an hour to go to vans were ready to take the pilots to the airport to start walking the line.

15 minutes from stike time, and pilots heading to the airport ALPA advise they finally have a possible TA and to hold off for an hour or two. The Company accepted what we were looking for.

Yes we didn't go out on strike and walk the line but were darn close to it. We stood strong and together as a pilot group and got what is probably the best regional contract out there by doing what MESA couldn't - standing strong and together. MESA's TA doesn't even hold a candle to our old one of the 90's.

I am disgusted that MESA pilots on the whole feel this is something they can live with with pay scales for a 9 year RJ pilots 5 years from DOS less than our 2nd year guys (and girls) are now!

Oh and yes the JS is on MEL

 

[SELFloadingCRGO]

The airline industry is in shambles, and the industry is taking record losses. It amazes me that so many people are worried about how much money they are gonna make or if they will have 12 days off instead of 10. Do you honestly think that any mainline carrier is going to take pay cuts and then not ask its regional feeders to do the same? So with "pay cuts" in mind, is keeping what you had better than taking a cut? I'm no economist, but that seems alright to me. I guess keeping ones job has fallen from the list of importance.
With the Mesa folks locking in all their own flying, don't you think that other carriers like CHQ, Mesaba, Eagle and others will have this scope to compare to? That they will be able to say "hey we want that kind of job protection, we want to do all of our companies flying, get rid of Republic or X alter ego".

It certainly is the truth that the industry is not what it used to be. All this talk of denied jumpseats because of someone else's contract, you've got to be kidding me. This would have never happened not so many years ago.
Needless to say it certainly frightens me to think that I might have family riding on some of your airplanes. I hope that some of this behavior doesn't ever enter the cockpit, I am almost ashamed to be classified in the same group as some of you.


SLC