Mesa and Delta...It's official

[say again]

Sorry if this question has already been answered, but does this also mean the JO and Mesa will actually take possession of the DoJets and maybe use them?

Working for Mesa and that A-HOLE would never be a good option, but you would think Mesa would then need to hire onto these aircraft vs. just parking them....

I hope not. I'd hate to see such a wonderful airplane fall to company like that!!

 

[FDJ2]

FDJ2: Something I have said time and time again. Downward pressure on our wages and work rules, will mean downward pressure on YOUR wages and work rules. It's a simple concept.

I understand that Palerider, and I am not cheering the introduction of Mesa to DCI. There is quite a bit bringing down the value of this profession, 70 seaters at DCI, E-170s at DCI, JBLU payrates on the 190, pilots who wronglfully claimed that DAL pilots were over paid, pilots who think $120-150/hr is o.k. for a 737 or Airbus Capt. , have all contributed to the downward pressure on the value of this career. But nothing would hurt this career more then the RJDC lawsuits relief section which would eliminate scope. It is the lack of scope that has allowed Mesa to join DCI, it is the lack of scope that allows E170s to be flown by other than DAL pilots. Scope is good, the RJDC lawsuit which seeks an injunction against scope is bad.

 

[N2264J]

According to the RJDC it would be wrong to scope out MESA, that would be predatory. I would think that you would welcome them with open arms, after all, shouldn't we be inclusive?

Amazing.

I can't help but marvel at the utter lack of understanding of some Delta pilots on this issue. First, ALPA prohibites the Comair and ASA MECs from bargaining scope with the entity that controls the flying:

http://www.rjdefense.com/alpaletters.pdf

Then, the Delta MEC "permits" flying to be outsourced to keep management from coming after stuff in their contract (in other words, they "sell" our job security to keep some of their bennies) and they do this without the knowledge or consent of the Comair/ASA MECs. Now, Mesa is going to be a DCI carrier and FDJ2 can't help but gloat and mock us.

But be aware - the alligator is in the tent. Freedom and Chautauqua (Republic) operate 90 seaters. When Delta goes back to the negotiating table to bargain rates for the 737 or MD-88, (if they still have those planes by then) guess what? The downward pressure on the Delta contract will be overwhelming.

So let's hear it for "Brand Scope," ALPA's do nothing placebo for the most serious industry problem since Lorenzo. The Delta pilots are "Restoring the Profession" alright - all the way back to E. L. Cord.

Alter egos: they're not just a "regional" problem anymore.

 

[N2264J]

What part of,

Plaintiffs thus seek an injunction ordering ALPA to stop negotiating or assisting in the negotiation of scope clauses in such a manner as to exercise control over the flying by pilots for a carrier other than the one for which the CBA is being negotiated...

do you not understand BVT?

Well, here's the part you don't understand:

If Delta pilots want to scope out 737s, MD-88s or 777s, have at it. But if the RJDC lawsuit prevails, you will no longer be able to arbitrarily restrict aircraft your pilots don't fly.

That's the job of the Comair and ASA MECs who would be happy to negotiate our own scope if our union would only allow it.

 

[P38JLightning]

double edged sword

I understand that Palerider, and I am not cheering the introduction of Mesa to DCI. There is quite a bit bringing down the value of this profession, 70 seaters at DCI, E-170s at DCI, JBLU payrates on the 190, pilots who wronglfully claimed that DAL pilots were over paid, pilots who think $120-150/hr is o.k. for a 737 or Airbus Capt. , have all contributed to the downward pressure on the value of this career. But nothing would hurt this career more then the RJDC lawsuits relief section which would eliminate scope. It is the lack of scope that has allowed Mesa to join DCI, it is the lack of scope that allows E170s to be flown by other than DAL pilots. Scope is good, the RJDC lawsuit which seeks an injunction against scope is bad.

Just a few short months ago, Mesa was prohibited by Delta pilot scope from joining DCI. Your pilot group changed their scope to allow them. This granted management "relief" by being able to keep outrageously high regional pilot pay in check, and in return your pilot group got to save some "negoating capital" for other things, like pension and payrates, etc.

Or so you think, for now. But 64J is 100% right when he says the camel's nose is under the tent. You will never see a mainline 100 seater now. That fate is sealed. If these aircraft ever do show up, they will be at a regional, and you will be lucky to "secure" a couple hundred temp jobs at the benefiting regional carrier(s). At first those jobs will go to your furloughed pilots, but when they eventualy get back to mainline (due primarily to attrition and a maybe a short lived bump in US flown intl widebody flying before China Air, et al can build sufficient capacity to do it all) then those jobs will revert to hungry regional pilots.

Then your regionals will be dominating the 100-115 seat market. By that time EMB, Bombardier or whoever, will have a newer generation 100-115 seater. But guess what, its stretchable to 150 or so. So you slowly negoate away that flying too, so you can preserve your personal 777 or 787 payrates. By the time we're all kicking back in the nursing home reading Flying the Line VIII maybe we'll realize "dang that was stupid" but for now, in giant leaps here and baby steps there, Lorenzo's henchmen are building their unionbusting fantasy, with the full compliance and permission of the biggest, strongest pilot union. But hey, at least ALPA medical is good.

So on one hand we (regionals in Delta) are killing the profession by flying 500 state of the art swept wing all glass turbojets for peanut wages, but on the other hand you need that flying farmed out to the lowest bidder to remain competitive because you can't afford to either negotiate one list, or to bring all flying onto your exclusive list.

The rest of your career you will likely see the consistent negotiating away of more and more of "your" flying so that the pilots on property now can keep as much of their own personal career expectations as possible, clinging to an ever shrinking "mainline". Good going ALPA.

 

[surplus1]

I beleive this describes you and the RJDC perfectly:

Delusions

[font=Arial, Sans]Definition[/font]

A delusion is an unshakable belief in something untrue. These irrational beliefs defy normal reasoning, and remain firm even when overwhelming proof is presented to dispute them. Delusions are often accompanied by hallucinations and/or feelings of paranoia, which act to strengthen confidence in the delusion

Persecutory

Individuals with persecutory delusional disorder are plagued by feelings of paranoia and an irrational yet unshakable belief that someone is plotting against them, or out to harm them.

[font=Arial, Sans]Grandiose[/font]

Individuals with grandiose delusional disorder have an over-inflated sense of self-worth. Their delusions center on their own importance, such as believing that they have done or created something of extreme value or have a "special mission."

That's perfect! The only problem is that I believe it describes perfectly the mainline MEC Chairmen that run ALPA, the top ranking APA National Officers, FDJ2, the General Lee and now, you. Much like a cancer that has been growing and ignored for years and is now plausibly terminal.

Perspective

" : the capacity to view things in their true relations or relative importance."

You all appear to lack this critical capacity, which is precisely why you all are the owners of and possess completely the characteristics that you so carefully outlined.

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

Freedom, Mid Atlantic, Republic and now GoJet are all and each the creation of ALPA policy; adopted, supported, encouraged and still pursued, by none other than the "mainline" pilots that have led ALPA (and the APA) into this quagmire, and whose constituents now suffer themselves ( along with the rest of us) the consequences of their greed and apartheid politics. It is no surprise that as the guilty they would attempt to blame others for the results of their handiwork.

 

[kmox29]

It's so nice to see someone else arguing here other than the petty a$$ grabbing that has been going on between Pinnacle and Mesaba.

 

[PCL_128]

Well, here's the part you don't understand:

If Delta pilots want to scope out 737s, MD-88s or 777s, have at it. But if the RJDC lawsuit prevails, you will no longer be able to arbitrarily restrict aircraft your pilots don't fly.

Apparently you don't even understand your own lawsuit. Read the suit again. It doesn't say what you are saying above. It refers to all scope that restricts the flying of another airline. That means that if you win, Delta will be able to transfer any flying to anyone they want. And guess what? They won't be transferring it to you, they'll be sending it to Mesa. Johnny O.'s been wanting to get his hands on some 737s for quite some time now. Maybe your silly little lawsuit will help him out. Wouldn't you proud of that accomplishment?

 

[bvt1151]

What part of,

Plaintiffs thus seek an injunction ordering ALPA

to stop negotiating or assisting in the negotiation of scope clauses in such a manner as to exercise control over the flying by pilots for a carrier other than the one for which the CBA is being negotiated,

do you not understand BVT? The RJDC lawsuit would prevent ALPA negotiating any scope language that would limit outsourcing.

Wake up BVT and smell the coffeee.

There's even a guy on this board with the username InclusiveScope. After all these years do you have any clue just what that means? You see sentences such as your misguided quote and spin it to say the RJDC is against all scope. You should probably understand exactly what you're arguing against before you waste your time here.

 

[cardboardboxes]

Amazing.

But be aware - the alligator is in the tent. Freedom and Chautauqua (Republic) operate 90 seaters. When Delta goes back to the negotiating table to bargain rates for the 737 or MD-88, (if they still have those planes by then) guess what? The downward pressure on the Delta contract will be overwhelming.

Alter egos: they're not just a "regional" problem anymore.

??? Freedom actually only has one 1900 on it's certificate right now. NO 90 seaters at all. I'm pretty sure CHQ doesn't have any either.

 

[hmmurdock]

Greetings..

I tend to agree with Scarlet somewhat. I am beginning to think a 2 to 3 day TOTAL airline shut down is not such a bad idea. It is time for mgt to wake up and also to send a clear message to the American public. We (all pilots) are fed up, and it is time to stop, now!



Take care

 

[Dodge]

Having numerous regionals in the stable has obviously worked wonders with US Air so Delta decides to muddy their own waters even more. Good luck DAL, ASA, CMR. Ya'll gonna need some soon.

 

[say again]

Greetings..

I tend to agree with Scarlet somewhat. I am beginning to think a 2 to 3 day TOTAL airline shut down is not such a bad idea. It is time for mgt to wake up and also to send a clear message to the American public. We (all pilots) are fed up, and it is time to stop, now!



Take care

I don't think American public will see it that way. They will see us as being greedy, over-paid cry babies, who make to much as it is. We all know that's not true.

 

[Nindiri]

A nationwide walkout would be the end of ALPA. Anyone remember PATCO?

 

[FDJ2]

Well, here's the part you don't understand:

If Delta pilots want to scope out 737s, MD-88s or 777s, have at it. But if the RJDC lawsuit prevails, you will no longer be able to arbitrarily restrict aircraft your pilots don't fly.

Nice try at spin control N. Your lawsuit makes no such differentiation. You aparently have no understanding of your own lawsuit. According to your lawsuit ALPA could not negotiate any scope language that would limit any outsourcing, to any contractor, wholly owned or not. Haven't you stated time and again that no pilot group owns any Delta flying.

 

[General Lee]

Having numerous regionals in the stable has obviously worked wonders with US Air so Delta decides to muddy their own waters even more. Good luck DAL, ASA, CMR. Ya'll gonna need some soon.

Thanks for the insight Dodge. You guys will probably have another regional in the Airlink ranks too. Enjoy the whipsaw.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FDJ2]

Apparently you don't even understand your own lawsuit. Read the suit again. It doesn't say what you are saying above. It refers to all scope that restricts the flying of another airline. That means that if you win, Delta will be able to transfer any flying to anyone they want. And guess what? They won't be transferring it to you, they'll be sending it to Mesa. Johnny O.'s been wanting to get his hands on some 737s for quite some time now. Maybe your silly little lawsuit will help him out. Wouldn't you proud of that accomplishment?

PCL, excellent observation. If N didn't realize it before, he's an idiot, if he did then he's a liar.

 

[Jungle Prop]

This is just F---ing great.

 

[FDJ2]

There's even a guy on this board with the username InclusiveScope. After all these years do you have any clue just what that means?

Neither does he and neither do you. The RJDC lawsuit doesn't mention inclusive scope, or define it. It just simply seeks to eliminate scope.

You see sentences such as your misguided quote and spin it to say the RJDC is against all scope.

The quotes not misquided, it comes directly from the RJDC lawsuit. The idiots who support the RJDC and the relief section which asks for an injunction against ALPA scope protections are misguided, I'll grant you that

You should probably understand exactly what you're arguing against before you waste your time here.

I do understand exactly what I'm arguing against, you either don't understand your own lawsuit or you are intentionally being deceitfull.

 

[Beantown]

Is mesa lossing USair. Is the reason they are going to delta? With willy in MESA out? I bet thats the next press release!

I agree. -Bean