Mesa and Delta...It's official

[N2264J]

But be aware - the alligator is in the tent. Freedom and Chautauqua (Republic) operate 90 seaters.

??? Freedom actually only has one 1900 on it's certificate right now. NO 90 seaters at all. I'm pretty sure CHQ doesn't have any either.

Details grasshopper. Details.

Think: common type rating. Think: maintenance compatability. Think: common inventory. Think: the same training program. Think: the infrastructer already exists elsewhere. Think: economy of scale. Now imagine yourself as an executive of an airline with no money who understands that the 70 to 138 seat gap has to be filled to maintain your very survival.

The new president at Comair is openly talking to pilots about the CL-65-705. That's the CL-65-900 fitted with 70 seats in a two class configuration but could easily be setup with 86 seats. And, according to him, he still wants the E-170 with a type rating that goes to all the way 110 seats. Whipsaw? During our PID petition, the Delta pilots said they couldn't be whipsawed by a CL-65 - only a 737 or larger could meet the criterion for whipsaw.

That train has left the station and the Delta pilots weren't on it. What's more, they don't have the bargaining leverage to stop it. And what's so facinating about this is that with the exception of Dave Griffen, they don't understand the screwing their MEC put to them. All they can manage in the face of this looming disaster is lame jokes about how funny it would be to start the Mainline Defense Coalition and attempt to blame everything on the RJDC and our MEC's poor negotiating skills.

A kid once told me "When I grow up, I want to be a Delta pilot." I said "You can't do both."

 

[say again]

And Say Again

I think the american people are tired of the CEOs making a shi& load of money and then the company goes up in smoke--THEY ARE SICK of it.

What I say has to do with aviation..

I really don't think they care if another company goes up in smoke. Why?? Because there is going to be another company to jump in and take over. As long as they get what they want, the American public is happy. If someone wants to go from A to B, they really don't care who it's on, but rather, who has the cheapest ticket. That's what it comes down to. There's no loyalty anymore.

If United and USAir happen to become extint (pray thay don't), is the American public really going to care? (Some may, most won't). Are they going to even consider what the CEO made? NO

It's the employees who are fed up, and for good reason. We are the ones giving into concessions, crappier work rules, etc. why??

What you say may be true in other fields, but certaintly not aviation.

I think the people are upset because of all the ILLEGAL ways the ceo's are making their $$ and then trying to cover it up.

 

[surplus1]

I do understand exactly what I'm arguing against, you either don't understand your own lawsuit or you are intentionally being deceitfull.

I won't deny that you know what you're arguing against but it's fairly obvious that you didn't pass the bar for you do not understand the language of the litigation.

Be that as it may, I'm curious. What is your take on the hypothetical outline of the "new" Air Wisconsin scope re US Airways? Would you be content if that type of scope appeared in a contract affecting the Delta pilots? Would you feel that efforts to prevent it were unrreasonable and without legal merit?

I just wonder how double your standard really is? Do you have the guts to tell me and the rest of the audience?

If you claim not to have read that part of the RJDC update I'll be happy to accommodate you by publishing it here.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Why do you guys always bring up RJDC....hell talk to Delta MGT. they have support the RJDC--so go talk to them--I know I have a very very good friend at Delta and they would love to see RJDC win....

DAL Management does not "support" the RJDC. Further, the RJDC has been waiting on an attack from management - after all - a unified group of about 7,000 pilots is not want Delta management wants to have to deal with.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Apparently you don't even understand your own lawsuit. Read the suit again. It doesn't say what you are saying above. It refers to all scope that restricts the flying of another airline.

Some folks on the board helped draft the lawsuit, so I think there is a pretty good understanding of what it says amongst the Comair and ASA pilots who participated. The fact that pilots should be able to negotiate with their employer to reach an agreement on their wages and working conditions is nothing new. A contract which excludes the appropriate parties is voidable, since it was illegal in its inception. These are not "new" ideas and not even controversial issues in the law. The RJDC lawsuit should not even be necessary, ALPA should follow these basic rules like a checklist.

This RJDC litigation is not even a question of "if," it is a matter of "when." ALPA knows it and is already starting to hedge their bets and moved money offshore almost immediately after the suit was filed.

Why ALPA continues taking us down the wrong road just leaves me apoleptic. Does mainline bigotry mean so much as to wreck an entire profession to maintain the belief that some pilots are superior to other pilots?

 

[fastbird]

JO, the man who is single handedly f**king the industry scores again!

Bend over boys and girls...I smell another round of concessions in the wind.

 

[FDJ2]

I won't deny that you know what you're arguing against but it's fairly obvious that you didn't pass the bar for you do not understand the language of the litigation.

The language in the lawsuit is quite simple to understand.

Plaintiffs thus seek an injunction ordering ALPA

to stop negotiating or assisting in the negotiation of scope clauses in such a manner as to exercise control over the flying by pilots for a carrier other than the one for which the CBA is being negotiated

What part of that don't you understand?

Let me ask you a few questions, I want to get a feel for where your interpretation of the RJDC and their lawsuit is:

According to the RJDC, does any pilot group own any DL code flying?

According to the RJDC, can ALPA negotiate scope language for the DAL pilots that limits another ALPA pilot group access to the DL code?

According to the RJDC, does CMR/ASA being wholly owned or not have any effect on the RJDC lawsuit? If so, what does it change?

According to the RJDC lawsuit, would ALPA be allowed to negotiate scope limits on the DL code which would prevent another ALPA pilot group from flying DL code passengers on 90 seat, 110 seat or 150 seat aircraft?


As for the U situation, that's a whole different story and is not part of the RJDC lawsuit which seeks to abrogate the scope language in the DAL CBA.

 

[FDJ2]

Some folks on the board helped draft the lawsuit, so I think there is a pretty good understanding of what it says amongst the Comair and ASA pilots who participated. The fact that pilots should be able to negotiate with their employer to reach an agreement on their wages and working conditions is nothing new.

Some of the folks who drafted the lawsuit are being somewhat less than straight forward, or they really don't know their own lawsuit.

You do negotiate with your employer, ASA. The rest of your comments are meaningless, since its based on the false premise that somehow DAL is your employer, DAL is not.

 

[737 Pylt]

Details grasshopper. Details.

Think: common type rating. Think: maintenance compatability. Think: common inventory. Think: the same training program. Think: efficiency of scale. Now imagine yourself as an executive of an airline with no money who understands that the 70 to 138 seat gap has to be filled to maintain your very survival.

It's pretty funny that you of all people writes think. You need a brain to think man!

The new president at Comair is openly talking to pilots about the CL-65-705. That's the CL-65-900 fitted with 70 seats in a two class configuration but could easily be setup with 86 seats. And, according to him, he still wants the E-170 with a type rating that goes to all the way 110 seats. Whipsaw? During our PID petition, the Delta pilots said they couldn't be whipsawed by a CL-65 - only a 737 or larger could meet the criterion for whipsaw.

And because management said it, it must be true. You are truly an idiot!

That train has left the station and the Delta pilots weren't on it. What's more, they don't have the bargaining leverage to stop it. And what's so facinating about this is that with the exception of Dave Griffen, they don't understand the screwing their MEC put to them. All they can manage in the face of this looming disaster is lame jokes about how funny it would be to start the Mainline Defense Coalition and attempt to blame everything on the RJDC and our MEC's poor negotiating skills.

What I think is funny is how you morons can't stop from being scoped
yourself. Isn't it ironic??

A kid once told me "When I grow up, I want to be a Delta pilot." I said "You can't do both."

That's almost as funny as the Comar pilot I saw in the supermarket (in uniform)that was telling some lady he was a "pilot for Delta."
737
At least take the hat off loser!

 

[737 Pylt]

Oh brother!

The language in the lawsuit is quite simple to understand.

Plaintiffs thus seek an injunction ordering ALPA

to stop negotiating or assisting in the negotiation of scope clauses in such a manner as to exercise control over the flying by pilots for a carrier other than the one for which the CBA is being negotiated

What part of that don't you understand?

(Sigh!) What part don't you understand. All flying under the DAL code is subject to the DAL pilots' PWA. Simply put!

Let me ask you a few questions, I want to get a feel for where your interpretation of the RJDC and their lawsuit is:

According to the RJDC, does any pilot group own any DL code flying?

OK, here we go again, "All flying under the DAL code is subject to the DAL pilots' PWA."

737

 

[asarjfo]

I Quit!

 

[PCL_128]

You do negotiate with your employer, ASA. The rest of your comments are meaningless, since its based on the false premise that somehow DAL is your employer, DAL is not.

This is the most important point of this whole thing. For the life of me I can't see why the RJDC pukes don't understand this simple fact.

 

[FDJ2]

This is the most important point of this whole thing. For the life of me I can't see why the RJDC pukes don't understand this simple fact.

Delusional. Denial. Deceit. One or a combination of all three.

 

[FDJ2]

(Sigh!) What part don't you understand. All flying under the DAL code is subject to the DAL pilots' PWA. Simply put!

I understand that, but we were discussing the language in the lawsuit to abrogate ALPA scope, not the language in the PWA.

Clearly the RJDC seeks to eliminate the right of ALPA pilot groups to have scope protections in their CBAs. That is why they have filed their lawsuit, in an effort to abrogate the collective bargaining agreement of the DAL PWA ,and make all DL code flying subject to RFPs.

 

[Beantown]

I Quit!

\

I call your bluff! -Bean

 

[~~~^~~~]

This is the most important point of this whole thing. For the life of me I can't see why the RJDC pukes don't understand this simple fact.

Well, lets see it started when Chuck Giambusso and Mike Pinho lied to the 2000 BOD meeting and behind the scenes make the threat to take the Delta pilots out of ALPA if the union properly applied its own merger and fragmentation policy.

When the union failed to follow its own Consitution and its own Administrative Policy guidelines it started down the path which lead us into the alter ego world of warring pilot groups.

You simply reflect the wrong headed thinking that got us here. There is no convincing you of the value to unity because you think you benefit from the apartied system. You come on this board and mock the real concern that pilots have for trying to end alter ego.

But when this plays out - and Delta flying stops - there will be many Mesa pilots more qualified, with more PIC time than you have. Ask your buddies at US Air who is getting hired first - the Wholly Owned guys that they squeezed out of their jobs with scope, or the 50 year old 737 First Officers.

Perhaps you can rig some sort of jets for jobs program with Mesa. After all, wasn't that ALPA's real problem with Freedom to begin with?

US Air = Delta ( two years from now except for Delta has twice the debt level and a higher gross loss based on percentage of revenue ) Your apartied system is crashing.

~~~^~~~

 

[comrcap]

Delta will go BK

Have you seen the Pension liabilaty? Geez! Only one way out...Yup, BK. Or a negotiated termination or conversion to a cash balance plan like IBM did (I think it was IBM). 1.8 Billion over the next 3 years! Gotta earn that first dollar after the pension payment before things turn around. They still owe for the current year about 250 million!

 

[h25b]

Doesn't this prove that Comair taking concessions for growth was REALLY STUPID ??? It's obvious that Delta is going to go with the lowest bidder no matter what you do anyway so why not hang on to what you have (or would've had) ???

I realize that you will most likely get what you were promise in that agreement, but that will be it and anything additional will just go to the lowest bidder...

 

[scarlet]

I thought this was about Mesa and Delta--now it is back to the Dam* lawsuit again...

GO CREATE a board for that ----we are tired of hearing it...

AND news flash--DL MGT. does support RJDC.......I know it and just wanted to share it with you guys .

I would think that the Delta folks would be more pissed off about CHQ. taking DL money and then giving 150million to USair....where is the justice in that---lets fund USair...with DL connection money...And now Mesa as a DL connection carrier and they want to invest in USair.

I am sorry but old lesson--you keep your own nose in your own business, and you know what is going on.

 

[BlackPilot628]

I thought this was about Mesa and Delta--now it is back to the Dam* lawsuit again...

GO CREATE a board for that ----we are tired of hearing it...

THANK YOU!!!!

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Management has very successfully neutered ALPA. How can any of the DCI carriers expect to negotiate improvments to their contract?

How can they negotiate growth when each and every opportunity for growth is met with a bidding war?

How can they even be successful in holding on to what they have when Delta is free to shift flying around to the entity that will provide it with the highest margins and lowest cost?

Sure H25B, you can say "heck no!" "full pay till' the last day". I doubt that such an adversarial relationship would be productive within the framework of the portfolio concept. Ultimately Delta can simply wait until the leases are up on existing aircraft and slowly return them to the lessor. After all, there are half-a-dozen other carriers chomping at the bit to take over that flying -- for less!?!

What can a regional airline MEC do? They are between a rock and a hard-place. They are charged with defending the PWA and, at the same time, ensuring the job security of their membership (to the best of their ability). After all, ALPA's job #1 is (or at least should be) Jobs.

I don't envy the Comair pilot representatives right now. Chautauqua was a difficult enough challenge. Now with Mesa the playing field just got a whole lot more crowded.

ALPA's power stems from their ability to withdraw their services if necessary. In the portfolio concept that power is virtually eliminated.

The bar will always be set by the lowest common denominator.

Management won... and they did so nice and legally in compliance with the Delta, Comair, and ASA scope language.

 

[h25b]

I respectfully disagree and from your experience I am sure you've seen the shortcomings of the "full pay till the last day" concept. But I think we're talking apples and oranges on this one. I can't believe the ultimate outcome was altered (whatever that is) by Comair's "taking one for the team." This agreement was certainly in the works as Delta was asking for the Comair concessions.

So my point was that Delta was shopping before the concessions and will continue to do so regardless, obviously the concessions did not buy some sort of newly found reason for them to keep things in the family.

I had just started at CHQ back in 1999 when Mr. Bedford came to the company and the very first thing he tried was the old jets for concessions (or in our case an extension of the current contract). We voted no and guess what, look where CHQ is today. Not even a shadow of its former self.

I am definately not advocating "full pay till the last day." Of course hindsight is always 20/20, but if I was one of the "yes" voters for those concessions I would feel like this deal with Mesa was a real slap in the face.

Heck, I don't think Delta has even announced what the plans are for the additional jets in the concessions package yet and here we are out with this Mesa deal. This whole thing freakishly reminds me of the days sitting in the PIT crew room listening to all of the Piedmont/PSA/Allegheny "Holy" Owned pilots being ticked at us CHQ guys/gals getting "their" flying...

Bottom line, Comair better get happy with what they have and stop worrying about additional stuff because it is obviously going to be slim pickins from here on out. Not taking those concessions in the first place would have made that process a whole lot easier...

 

[FurloughedAgain]

"if I was one of the "yes" voters for those concessions I would really feel like this deal with Mesa was a real slap in the face."

I think on this one point we can both certainly agree.

Fortunately, and thanks to you, I can observe this whole mess as an "airline enthusiast" rather than as someone whose livlihood depends upon it.

Have my first eval with R.P. today. Wish me luck.

 

[h25b]

"if I was one of the "yes" voters for those concessions I would really feel like this deal with Mesa was a real slap in the face."

I think on this one point we can both certainly agree.

Fortunately, and thanks to you, I can observe this whole mess as an "airline enthusiast" rather than as someone whose livlihood depends upon it.

Have my first eval with R.P. today. Wish me luck.

Give me a call later when you get a chance...

 

[wanagethi]

Hey, h25b, your still low paid with a bad qol so where is chq after the 1999 no vote, my answer is close to the bottom. If you still work for chq, you have no voice in this Mesa thing.

 

[h25b]

Like FurloughedAgain, out of the airlines all together and into corporate. Left CHQ in 2000... BEFORE THE LATEST CONTRACT... I'm fairly paid, home every night (more or less), and get to see the kids grow up. Would have never seen that at ANY regional. Including Comair... Nice try though...

Just hate to see any pilot get hosed. The Comair guys/gals are getting hosed...

 

[ComeOnSkip]

As a CHQ guy on the DAL side of the house, I am weeping.

Mesa...seriously....MESA!?? Sorry, I mean Freedom. Boy I look forward to our next contract negotiations. Now in direct competition with the Mesa contract. Talk about leverage over Mgmnt.

Now that's rich. A CHQ guy crying over Mesa coming into the fold!

Websters, we've got a new definition for the word...

hy·poc·ri·sy (hi-pok-ri-se)
n. pl. hy·poc·ri·sies

1. The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.
2. An act or instance of such falseness.
3. Chautauqua pilot expressing dismay at being undercut by like minded pilots from another bottom feeding airline.

 

[N2264J]

Delusional. Denial. Deceit. One or a combination of all three.

You didn't answer Surplus1's question. You dodge and redirect your response by asking several questions of Surplus that, if he takes the time to answer, you'll
dismiss and won't believe anyway.

If Chautauqua, Mesa and/or Skywest invest in Delta, how would you feel if those pilots made scope demands as layed out hypothetically for US Airways in the last page of the update?

 

[DDpaysoff]

Now that's rich. A CHQ guy crying over Mesa coming into the fold!

Well at least we have something in common with the chautaqua pilots now. I am hearing Comair is going to be purchased by Republic. It is a hell of a lot bette than being purchased by skywest.

 

[jetflyer]

Hey DD what's up?,

What's your source?

Jet