MDA/CHQ Transition

[Wheres the van?]

The key in this at least for RAH pilots is maintaining the integrity of our seniority list,we fought hard during the last contract negotiations for the wording that any flying being done by RAH will be done by RAH pilots,we undertook this course in order to stop alter ego carriers from being set up and undermining our seniority.We suffered the slings and arrows from the chattering classes on this board as to how we had lowered the bar and by not insisting on higher pay had set the whipsaw in motion.

We originally voted down J4J because it in its original format it threatened our exisiting pilots seniority and prospects.Such nonsense as demanding furlough protection were unpalatable to us.

We finally agreed to J4J under our terms mainly the protections of our seniority list we allowed for 32 small jets I think we received 5 the remainder will be introduced as E170s,now whether those aircraft come from GE,US airways or Timbucktoo,the precedent is set with the J4J protocol.We have stayed on message since the get go,our contract history has shown that the issue of seniority is a priority for us.

I will admit 2 year training bonds are wrong but they have nothing to do with our contract,we have no control over that good/bad or indifferent.
We have control over our seniority list and existing protocols and we intend to maintain them period.

 

[kngarthur]

You missed my point. What I was trying to say was with the number of pilots at CHQ and the number of AC coming they are going to be bringing people on to fill the spots, these people will be in all probability be young flight instructor types just getting into the industy. Being such they are probably young. No offense to anyone, we all were young and we all started somewhere. I just think some consideration should be given to the old high timers that have been abused for so long. Especially since the contract that allows all this growth at CHQ protects these pilots. by the way I am very junior at my airline.

The industry can change at anytime! I'm not putting my faith into your statement!

 

[FlyingDawg]

I'm guessing you haven't been around long, so I'll be gentle. The majors DO have scope language in there contracts, it's just been relaxed to allow you to fly your pretty RJ. They had plenty of foresight, it's just that over the years the quality of the contracts has been severely eroded. Used to be that regionals couldn't fly anything bigger than a mid size turboprop... Were you born yet then?

Your quote sounds just like the US Airways pilots of the mid '90s; "Our flying will never go away! We have iron clad scope!" As I said before, those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it!

My point is why are there subcontractors at all? Even props? Why didn't groups demand brand scope? At some point in time they allowed props, now RJs, what next 737s?

Contracts should have been designed so pilots started in props, moved up to RJs and then to mainline aircraft all at the same company.

Personally I think the good old boy network of military pilots helped push along the idea of subcontractors. That allowed ex-military pilots to get military friends jobs at the majors thus bypassing the regionals. I'm not saying thats the sole cause but it didn't help.

 

[FlyingDawg]

Point taken... The kicker to the mess in this industry is the idea of senority itself. It is ironic that pilots fight for it so hard for it, only to have it bit us in the a$$ when times are bad. I see senority as the more money a pilot makes for an airline, the more benifits he gets from it. ie upgrade, better sed. and more money. Problem is when an airline goes under, the pilots affected don't want to "start over" at the bottom of a new carrier. Most pilots, myself included, feel that our efforts at one carrier sould be taken into account at another. However the pilots at the other carrier see it as, I have been at this carrier longer and deserve more than the new guy. And as I see it, they are right. It is a double edge sword. We protect our senority at the carrier we are at, but expect another pilot group not to protect theirs when we come over. It will never happen, but a national senority list is the way to go. We should not be connected to our carrier, but to our profession. If another guy has been dlying longer than me, he should have more senority. We all have strips on our shoulders and all want the same things. As long as we flight for the colors on the aircraft instead of our profession, we will never move forward as one unified group... Just my thoughts, might be full of crap, but makes since to me.....

Never gonna happen, nor should it. What other industry has this? Even monopolies didn't promote by seniority order all the way to the top. Why not take it another step and have one payscale for all airlines? This idea dilutes competition. Are there any other industries that you feel need or deserve this single seniority list?

 

[BoilerUP]

All of this over 300 MDA pilots, a virtual drop in the bucket on your list. Sick... Just sick.

How many pilots are on the RAH list, 1200-1300? We are talking 20-25%; that is hardly a "virtual drop in the bucket".

 

[sunchaser]

Never gonna happen, nor should it. What other industry has this? Even monopolies didn't promote by seniority order all the way to the top. Why not take it another step and have one payscale for all airlines? This idea dilutes competition. Are there any other industries that you feel need or deserve this single seniority list?

I was talking about ALPA's push for a national senority list that got no support. If there was a national senority list then pilots would have no problems in mergers that have happened for the last 70 years. This is nothing new and we haven't learned anything. So we need to quite b!tching about what pilots have no control over and get on the bottom of a new list. And no one come at me about getting the sh!t beat out of you in this industry, because I have.. I am still trying to be positive and think about what to do instead of b!tching about what some didn't do.....

 

[puttin4doh]

Time to throw myself to the wolves...There is just not an easy solution to this. I understand that the MDA guys have been through a lot. But, as Sunchaser was saying, this industry is a killer. It's all about being in the right place at the right time. If you had a choice six years ago between Eagle or CHQ, where do you go? How about all the guys that left the regionals in the late 90s for a major? Tough break, but do they come back to CHQ with super seniroity? It's not that we don't care about how much another pilot has been through, it's just that this is a brutally objective industy...no room for subjective bargaining. Several people here are out to make CHQ guys look like greedy kids. But I think just about everyone in this mess is acting that way. (yes, including CHQ)

I think some are not remembering the 1 big fact here CHQ is not giving up anything!

Why should CHQ give up anything? Maybe I'm missing something, but this is not a merger. US is not selling the MDA aircraft for grins, they need cash...and REP has it. So REP gives cash and also has to "give up" something for the privilage???

The big prize isn't REP/CHQ for MDA pilots this is only a piece of the puzzle.

This is the heart of why CHQ pilots are disgusted by the "super Seniority" argument. The implication by this is: "we came from Airways, so this is a step down for us. Thus, we deserve better schedules, bases, etc..." Maybe this isn't the case, but that's sure how it looks.

It's obviously a very emotional issue, with great reason. Just realize that everyone is putting equal spin on their side of the argument. I hope the MDA guys find a FAIR solution. (maybe not SS, but something fair) AND, I hope CHQ guys realize that the flying done by these aircraft is courtesy of the Airways system. Just have a little respect in both directions, right?

 

[ED GRIMLEY]

I think it is you that are a tad confused. These aircraft are operated on the US Airways certificate by pilots on the US Airways seniority list. Your pilot group is using a legal technicality to lock the MDA folks out of flying which is rightfully thiers. Would you be singing the same tune if the plan was to shift the A330's over to RAH? I'll bet you would. How about if RAH was going to sell some EMB-145s to another company to operate for them? Your tune would change entirely.

You are using the fact that the MDA pilots have not yet been able to ensure thier contractual scope protections to justify that not letting them onto the property is ok. It isn't. It is selfish and wrong, and smacks of what I am sure is your personal motto: "I've got mine, f*ck you."

All of this over 300 MDA pilots, a virtual drop in the bucket on your list. Sick... Just sick.

Wow well you contradicted yourself in that one. It is legally speaking RAH's flying then technically it isn't rightfully Mid-Atlantic's flying. RAH is getting rid some 145's. You talk about selfish and wrong . This whole arguement is wrong and everyone is looking out for good ole number 1. Hypocrite. Welcome to capitalism you commie bitch.

 

[Traumahawk]

These aircraft are operated on the US Airways certificate by pilots on the US Airways seniority list. Your pilot group is using a legal technicality to lock the MDA folks out of flying which is rightfully thiers.

Ah yes, one of those "multi-million dollar asset purchase technicalities"

How about if RAH was going to sell some EMB-145s to another company to operate for them? Your tune would change entirely.

Thats called, LIFE. This industry's a bitch isn't it. It could happen tommorow.


By the way, does ANYONE on here know WHY USAir is selling the 170's?? Get back to me if you do. It's more than US just needing cash. These things were going bye bye nomatter what.

Why, when you have the choice of several other companies, WHY would you pick one controlled by a post 9/11 USAir?? Why would you do that??
I'm sure some have viable reasons they did, and that my friends is called, A CHOICE. A decision. And now we have the outcome.

It's a rat race and it stinks, please don't forget how many other furloughed guys and gals are out there with no retirement, no airline job at all, some for carriers who's connection/express affiliates didn't even OFFER them a J4J program!

Go back to lurking. You're bitter. And you don't work for either of these companies.

T-Hawk

P.S. Republic Holdings is a business. And the pilots, many of them that have been there since the begginning, probably don't take one round of aircraft purchasing well when the former(already US furloughed) pilots say, we'll, were coming in and jumping ahead of you, cause our company is coming up short on making life work for us. Not Our problem!! Take J4J, take captain positions right off the bat. Take the chance to end up somehwere that has a bright future(hopefully) Take a chance and be part of growth, or go start over somewhere else. We owe you NOTHING but respect for your situation, and perhaps the best of luck.

 

[FrustratedCFI]

Actually, we are losing aircraft soon. We will lease around 5 of our 145s to a foreign carrier. Our pilots will not be going with them. We do not have to take any of the MDA pilots. The 50% mentioned if from an offer to bring some of the pilots over under the J4J language that included up to 32 aircraft. We never took posession of all 32 so there is room under that arraingment for our company to ask our pilot group to let half of the 50% to come over seat locked into the left seat. I think this is to save money on training as I stated in my earlier post. Again, we do not have to offer ANY MDA/USAirways pilot a job let alone to be locked into the left seat or to have the FOs start at the top of the FO pay scale. I also think this will alleviate some of the pressure on our HR department so that they do not have a problem hiring and training enough pilots to staff the new aircraft. Our CEO has talked of going to USAirways, ALPA, and our pilot group to redo the J4J agreement so as to take all 100% of the MDA/USAirways pilots. The only way this would be approved by our pilot group would be to increase the number of aircraft involved so that it is still only 50% staffed by non-chq list pilots. I should also state that I consider the pilots allready on property from the J4J agreement to be a great asset to our company and count serveral of them as friends of mine. By the way, they agree with me about it being an asset sale and not a change in controll.