MDA/CHQ Transition

[FlyingDawg]

Here's what I don't get. Many of these guys left regional airlines to go to Airways. Many left a very secure job with good seniority. However the additional money was just too much to turn down. Didn't anyone realize that they were taking a chance? Giving up security and seniority to be at the bottom of someone elses list and have the potential to make more money.

I on the otherhand, weighed the money vs security, and security won out. Should I get punished for making the right decision by losing seniority and lower pay all these years?

 

[LearLove]

Time to throw myself to the wolves...There is just not an easy solution to this. I understand that the MDA guys have been through a lot. But, as Sunchaser was saying, this industry is a killer. It's all about being in the right place at the right time. If you had a choice six years ago between Eagle or CHQ, where do you go? How about all the guys that left the regionals in the late 90s for a major? Tough break, but do they come back to CHQ with super seniroity? It's not that we don't care about how much another pilot has been through, it's just that this is a brutally objective industy...no room for subjective bargaining. Several people here are out to make CHQ guys look like greedy kids. But I think just about everyone in this mess is acting that way. (yes, including CHQ)

Why should CHQ give up anything? Maybe I'm missing something, but this is not a merger. US is not selling the MDA aircraft for grins, they need cash...and REP has it. So REP gives cash and also has to "give up" something for the privilage???


This is the heart of why CHQ pilots are disgusted by the "super Seniority" argument. The implication by this is: "we came from Airways, so this is a step down for us. Thus, we deserve better schedules, bases, etc..." Maybe this isn't the case, but that's sure how it looks.

It's obviously a very emotional issue, with great reason. Just realize that everyone is putting equal spin on their side of the argument. I hope the MDA guys find a FAIR solution. (maybe not SS, but something fair) AND, I hope CHQ guys realize that the flying done by these aircraft is courtesy of the Airways system. Just have a little respect in both directions, right?

Nice post, much better than most on the "other side".

"Just have a little respect in both directions, right?" - Something i've been trying to say and remember guys there is enough flying 70 - 100 seat to go around, why fight.

No wolves here, atleast you didn't respond with:


"Oh and Lear, go back to ALG and your DASH-8's..."

which btw OMP I would do in a HEARTBEAT!!!!. I miss the dash, the friends and contract over there very much. I really don't understand whats wrong with that guy.

 

[LXApilot]

This is why the mainline guys do not respect our pilot group...

Here's an idea...

When someone asks you what airline you work for, you say Republic Airways. Now let's try that all together class... R E P U B L I C. And one more time, just to be sure we've all got it now. R E P U B L I C. Great! It's all the same company, nobody deserves any more or less respect, nor the alleged 'evil eye' anywhere on the property. There is an old phrase I think you should all get used to, and it is "This is the business we've chosen." You knew the risks/rewards when you got hired with your company, and you knew the contract. Do me a favor and read over the book 'Hard Landing' and 'Flying the Line Vol.1 & 2' . Then if you have the audacity to come back and whine more after you have become enlightened as to the sacrifices and concessions of those who made this profession what it is, I may listen for a few seconds out of respect before backhanding you. When your company is purchased/absorbed then you are entitled to ABSOLUTELY NOTHING and should be thankful when you are allowed to keep your job. How about we all start playing on the same team? Managements divide and conquer strategy will be fast at work next October when that good old contract comes up for ammendment and renegotiation. We better have this all figured out by then, because there are more serious concerns that need to be addressed. Ok, let me have it!

 

[stb]

This is the heart of why CHQ pilots are disgusted by the "super Seniority" argument. The implication by this is: "we came from Airways, so this is a step down for us. Thus, we deserve better schedules, bases, etc..." Maybe this isn't the case, but that's sure how it looks.

The lawsuit filed on behalf of the MDA pilots is for many reasons. Getting bought out by REP again is a small piece of the puzzle.
The major fight isn't with REP.
Even if 100% of the jobs were given to the MDA pilots, MAYBE 50% would go.

The AmericaWest pilots should get interested in this fiasco or should I say future AmericaWest pilots.

 

[Traumahawk]

Here's an idea...

When someone asks you what airline you work for, you say Republic Airways. Now let's try that all together class... R E P U B L I C. And one more time, just to be sure we've all got it now. R E P U B L I C. Great! It's all the same company, nobody deserves any more or less respect, nor the alleged 'evil eye' anywhere on the property. There is an old phrase I think you should all get used to, and it is "This is the business we've chosen." You knew the risks/rewards when you got hired with your company, and you knew the contract. Do me a favor and read over the book 'Hard Landing' and 'Flying the Line Vol.1 & 2' . Then if you have the audacity to come back and whine more after you have become enlightened as to the sacrifices and concessions of those who made this profession what it is, I may listen for a few seconds out of respect before backhanding you. When your company is purchased/absorbed then you are entitled to ABSOLUTELY NOTHING and should be thankful when you are allowed to keep your job. How about we all start playing on the same team? Managements divide and conquer strategy will be fast at work next October when that good old contract comes up for ammendment and renegotiation. We better have this all figured out by then, because there are more serious concerns that need to be addressed. Ok, let me have it!

Nice post....but lets get to the biggest question of all.

Who had Franky Pentangeli killed?

 

[Strikefinder]

Again, we do not have to offer ANY MDA/USAirways pilot a job let alone to be locked into the left seat or to have the FOs start at the top of the FO pay scale.

This isn't entirely true. LOA91, the agreement with the MDA guys, states that they are entitled to J4J if an "asset sale" takes place at MDA. The MDA pilots are calling this a "change in control", which I don't believe holds water by the definition of such in LOA91.

Now, the CHQ/REP pilots may argue that the previous J4J agreement that was signed with the company does not currently apply, but in order to meet the terms of the agreement with the MDA pilots, it's either an "asset sale" (which is attached to J4J) or it's a "change in control" (which triggers Allegheny/Mohawk). If the CHQ pilots somehow nullify their acceptance of the J4J protocol, I believe the MDA pilots could feasibly stop the transaction, and Republic would get nothing. Having read through it, I don't see any reason why they would be able to nullify the agreement in place in LOA4. No matter what the rhetoric around here, I don't think the CHQ pilots have any real say in what is "offered", since it's all been previously outlined and agreed to.

J4J is the baseline. To get the airplanes, there needs to be J4J. Again, looking through LOA91, I don't see how Republic is gaining board control of another airline or outstanding shares of common stock, particularly since MDA is not being operated as a separate airline, so only that language applies.

In any case, I'm sure everybody will be angry at each other for years, and going to work will continue to spiral downhill as more grumpiness and malcontent spreads. The J4J pilots we have now are, in my experience, a top-notch group who adds a tremendous amount to the quality of our pilot group, and I'll be glad to see anybody that comes here.

 

[generaltso]

I guess a judge will decide if this is an "asset sale" or a "change in control". I think it is both, but I think first and foremost it is an asset sale. USair is selling these planes because they need cash... that is the bottom line.

If the arbitrator rules that it is a asset sale, the planes will come over under J4J terms. However, J4J states that the pilots will get ONE offer of employment under J4J. Supposedly, MDA pilots have already been offered and most of them rejected it. Under the J4J agreement, no second chance?

I guess the MDA pilots did not find the offer appealing. I think it was a fair deal, besides the 2 year training contract (reduced to 1 year?) and the double occupancy.

Another issue is the wholly owned pilots that fly for MDA but are not on the USair seniority list. These guys should NOT have been offered a position under J4J... were they? And how many of these guys are there?

Finally what about recall rights in the potential America West/USair merger? I thought I read somewhere that if you come over on J4J that you will not be able to be recalled to the new company. If so, that is b.s.... any comments on that?

Hopefully a MDA guy can chime in on these items. Thanks.

 

[FR8mastr]

I guess a judge will decide if this is an "asset sale" or a "change in control". I think it is both, but I think first and foremost it is an asset sale. USair is selling these planes because they need cash... that is the bottom line.

True, but they are also selling the sim. the door trainer, and all other parts associated with the 170



[/QUOTE]If the arbitrator rules that it is a asset sale, the planes will come over under J4J terms. However, J4J states that the pilots will get ONE offer of employment under J4J. Supposedly, MDA pilots have already been offered and most of them rejected it. Under the J4J agreement, no second chance?[/QUOTE]


The reason we have been offered many chances as this is not a straight J4J and also Republic needs the already trained and typed guys to do the proving runs. More proof the companies will interpret contracts at will to suit their needs



[/QUOTE]Another issue is the wholly owned pilots that fly for MDA but are not on the USair seniority list. These guys should NOT have been offered a position under J4J... were they? And how many of these guys are there?[/QUOTE]


Incorrect all pilots at MDA are on the US Airways Seniority list. there are about 100 former WO pilots there now.



[/QUOTE]Finally what about recall rights in the potential America West/USair merger? I thought I read somewhere that if you come over on J4J that you will not be able to be recalled to the new company. If so, that is b.s.... any comments on that?[/QUOTE]


Not true anyone on the US Airways seniority list will be called back to the merged airline in seniority order, this order still has to be negotiated with the America West folks.

 

[generaltso]

Incorrect all pilots at MDA are on the US Airways Seniority list. there are about 100 former WO pilots there now.

So the pilots that went from ALG to MDA are on the Airways seniority list? How did that happen?

 

[FR8mastr]

Basically it comes down to ALPA rules. Any pilot working for US AIRWAYS has to be on the seniority list. the original plan was for MDA to be another WO and in that case we would not have had the numbers until we flowed all the way to Airways. We all know that did not happen. Because MDA does not really exist and the 170 division is US AIRWAYS, the WO pilots are now Airways pilots. I hope that made sense.

 

[StarChecker]

More proof the companies will interpret contracts at will to suit their needs.

Absolutely right.

 

[surplus1]

It's called PFM (pure f'n magic). In fact the whole concept of the U/MDA pilots falls into that category.

Whatever agreement they have (LOA91) is with U, not with Republic. Is Republic one of the companies that signed LOA91? If it isn't, then the terms of LOA91 cannot be enforced against a 3rd party that did not agree to them, after the fact.

Perhaps the J4J agreement applies to this transaction but I doubt that it does. If it doesn't, the CHQ/REP pilots have no obligation whatever to apply it to this transaction and the U/MDA pilots have no rights to anything at CHQ/REP.

Why should CHQ/REP pilots agree to "super seniority" for U/MDA pilots? Because the U/MDA pilots want it? That makes no sense to me.

That whole J4J BS was imposed on the CHQ/REP pilots in the first place. They were coerced and forced into doing it because they did not have the contractual protection against the alter ego. The U pilots didn't give a da-mn about takeing captains slots from CHQ pilots or getting paid more for the same job, both out of seniority.

Well now the CHQ pilots have the contractual protection that they need and they do not owe the U/MDA pilots anything, period.

If the company (Republic Holdings) wants to hire U/MDA pilots there is nothing that prevents them from doing so. They get hired, the go to the bottom of the list, and that's it. They are not entitled to any captain positions out of seniority and they are not entitled to higher pay than mores senior pilots on the CHQ master list.

Every captain position that they are given in preference to a qualified CHQ F/O is the equivalent of the theft of that CHQ pilots seniority. Every dollar that they are paid, above what their seniority entitles them to, is a violation of the CHQ pilots contract.

Sure I'm sorry about what has happened to the U/MDA pilots; it is sad, but it does NOT entitle them to any "special rights" at Republic Holdings that violate the contract of the pilots on the CHQ master list, and the should not expect any. When they start demanding it, they should be told to put their "demands" where the sun doesn't shine.

If U/MDA had purchased any aircraft from CHQ/REP, there is no way in he11 that the U?MDA pilots would ever give any super seniority to even 1 CHQ/REP pilot and they would not hire one, until they had recalled all of their furloughed brothers, which translates to never.

There should be no "argument" about any of this and the CHQ/REP pilots should NOT relinquish their seniority to the pilots of any other airline.

Somebody should ask those U pilots how much of their seniority did they give up when their company bought the "assets" of bankrupt EAL. How many rEAL pilots did U hire with those 757's and how many did they give captain slots, higher pay and "super seniority"?

I don't have a personal dog in this fight, I don't work for CHQ. However, the whole idea of J4J and demands of super seniority on the part of mainline pilots over regional pilots is an ALPA crock of S, should never have been accepted by ANY regional pilot group, and it should not be accepted now by CHQ pilots.

The IBT, needs to represent the interests of CHQ pilots and protect them from the attempts of ALPA pilots to take their seniority. If they don't do that, the affected CHQ pilots should take them to court and force them to provide the representation they are paid to provide.

I hope the CHQ/REP pilots will be smart enough to protect their own seniority, 'cause nobody else will.

As for "proving runs", that's garbage. Republic Holdings already operates the EMB-170 under contract with another carrier. That means they do have pilots that are qualified to do proving runs for the Republic certificate; pilots that have already done that for the same airplane under the CHQ certificate. Use them.

Sorry for butting in, but enough is enough.

 

[stb]

As for "proving runs", that's garbage. Republic Holdings already operates the EMB-170 under contract with another carrier. That means they do have pilots that are qualified to do proving runs for the Republic certificate; pilots that have already done that for the same airplane under the CHQ certificate. Use them.

Makes you wonder why REP just doesn't do this.
Any CHQ pilot, Is the 170 currently short staffed? If so, how do you pull line pilots off a short staffed airplane? Cant pull sim instructor because of the full training schedule. (Guess Air Inc is right, there is a shortage of pilots. )
How long is it currently taking to get out of 170 training? Sim backed up? IOE? Fed ride?
The REP management looks like they have a problem with time to train pilots and contract obligations with Delta and UAL.

If you think the MDA pilots solidarity is for CHQ/REP, you are flying the plane from row 7.

 

[FR8mastr]

Surplus since you believe that the MDA/USair scope does not apply to Republic, then by the same token the CHQ scope also does not apply to Republic.

While I agree the whole J4J thing is a joke, it does not change the fact that if it were not for the J4J thing these jets would not be at CHQ for them to be fighting about.

If the REPublic and Airways management did not agree with this scope language then why would they have asked all MDA pilots, twice so far, to take these jobs?

I dont believe anyone at MDA even wants to be on the CHQ list, we want to remain together until we can get away from CHQ thereby leaving all the AC to CHQ/REP.

FYI, under LOA 91 change of control is also triggered upon sale of more that 36.5% of the division.

 

[BoilerUP]

Surplus since you believe that the MDA/USair scope does not apply to Republic, then by the same token the CHQ scope also does not apply to Republic.

What an asinine statement. Read Article 1.D of the 2003 Chautauqua contract.

Chautauqua is a subsidiary of Republic Airways Holdings (RAH), just the same as Republic Airlines (which doesn't really exist yet) and now Shuttle America.

 

[FR8mastr]

Boiler, you might want to read what I was responding to before you start insulting me. Ofcourse that statement is rediculous, so is the statement that LOA 91 does not count.

 

[BoilerUP]

Last time I checked, calling a statement asinine wasn't an insult. Anyway...

I have not read LOA91, but how can RAH be legally bound to an agreement between US Airways and ALPA?

 

[FR8mastr]

Boiler,
Loa 91 applies the same way that the J4J applies. If RAH wants to operate the jets for Airways, they must comply with the contract scope provisions of the Airways contract. If this were not the case CHQ or anyone else for that matter would not have J4J pilots on their property.

 

[A350]

What is a crock is that the Republic certificate doesn't have any airplanes on it.....the airplanes are coming from U/MDA. I take it that the CHQ pilots going to Republic are getting their seniority????? If they are, then the MDA pilots should have the same deal. It is a new company/certificate, correct?

A350

 

[Popeye0537]

A350, we are All on the same senority list....CHQ

Different employee #'s tell for which division you fly for(Shuttle/CHQ/REP)

MDA would be placed on CHQ's list...ie at the bottom of it.