MaxBlast feeling the LUV!

[DonVerita]

What we were talking about was you incessant bitching about how dicked up Southwest is in your eyes, and your juvenile whining about how the 717 with its "one push engine start" is such a better choice. BS. You don't have to be on the "cutting edge" in every aspect of technology to make money. And actually, I'm all for newer technology when it saves or makes money, but not just for your personal comfort. And "newer technology" (on the same par as the 717) already makes up the 4/5 of our fleet, with even higher technology on the way in the form of the -Max.

I'm sorry you may have to "work" a little harder when on a -300 Don, but it's pretty clear that a 737 (including our -300s) makes more money than your beloved 717 can. Yours is a pretty plane, it's easier for the pilots, but it can't make enough money for us, no matter how many bells and whistles.
THAT'S what we were talking about.

Bubba

Actually, no. That's what YOU were talking about.

I never said anything about "one push engine start", as well as some of your other fictional quotes. Nor does my "personal comfort" have anything to do with technology. Technology makes for better task automation and situational awareness thereby resulting in a safer operation. If profit were the only consideration, I'm sure SWA could acquire any number of beat up old aircraft for pennies on the dollar and go crazy with them. But that wouldn't be such a hot idea when maintenance, reliability, customer response, etc. were factored in.

It's good that the MAX is on the way. I'm looking forward to seeing a cockpit that is reported to be similar to the 787. In a previous post someone mentioned a possible good size NG order from a couple of foreign carriers to get SWA back on track with their original plan of retiring the -300/500 series; hopefully sooner rather than later.

Beyond that who knows what's on the planning board. With any luck it will be a door wide open to a plethora of international destinations using new widebody aircraft. To that end, I think we both can agree.

 

[humveedriver]

If you look at some of the early release photos of the Max cockpit, it's appears to be a glamed up NG. Not full scale departure like the 717 was compared to a DC9. You still have the "6 pack" recall master caution/warning system, instead of a modern Synoptics page. Can't speak to to the overhead, but things like the hydraulic pressure gauge are stil around with its colorful little analog gauge, and the flap indicator looks analog but is digitally represented. How much of this is done intentionally to allow pilots to fly both the NG and the Max? I'm sure alot. The gear handle is smaller and more centrally located and the flat panels are larger. News planes are new planes though, I'll take it.

 

[CHQ Pilot]

When the SWA Training Center gets all excited about the MAX because the flight number will be displayed on the screen, that's a pretty good bet the overhead is going to look almost identical to the NG. I would also be shocked if the vertical plan view and brake temp indicators shown in the Boeing release actually make it onto a SWA aircraft. Even though SWA has made a transition to automation, I would say overall the understanding in how it works is about grade school level compared to how most other airlines operate in a graduate level. That problem lies with training I feel.

 

[humveedriver]

When the SWA Training Center gets all excited about the MAX because the flight number will be displayed on the screen, that's a pretty good bet the overhead is going to look almost identical to the NG. I would also be shocked if the vertical plan view and brake temp indicators shown in the Boeing release actually make it onto a SWA aircraft. Even though SWA has made a transition to automation, I would say overall the understanding in how it works is about grade school level compared to how most other airlines operate in a graduate level. That problem lies with training I feel.

Interesting blog;

http://theflyingengineer.com/flightdeck/boeings-max-southwests-737/

 

[canyonblue]

Interesting blog;

http://theflyingengineer.com/flightdeck/boeings-max-southwests-737/

Yet as someone with skin in the game my focus is more appropriately focused on the end of the article and the statement...

Since the day of its founding, 38 years ago, Southwest has continuously made a profit.

I could care less about the rest of the article.

 

[dicko]

Interesting blog;

http://theflyingengineer.com/flightdeck/boeings-max-southwests-737/

The section of that blog referring to the Max is a little dated. There will be fly by wire in the Max - Spoilers.:cartman:

In an earlier post you referred to the lack of a synoptic page; In the image of the new Max cockpit there's a rotary switch next to the Hyd Px gauge. It has 4 small buttons above it. I'm hoping that it's a selector for system synoptic pages. Or it could be a replacement for the display selector switches that have disappeared.

The electronic bleed system may be meaningless for us, or it may mean a more advanced temp controller and a quieter cockpit. Probably the former if 'lazy Boeing' runs true to form.

Still going to be noisy, uncomfortable and profitable.

 

[humveedriver]

It's a couple of years old. SWA decided against doing the GE avionics upgrades for the classics as well. I read recently where the "bump" for the longer nose gear has been eliminated. So improvements are being made. The blog addresses that the 737 has stayed fundementally the same on the flight deck, even though they could have made it similar to either the 757/767 or the 777. The 717 flight deck is almost a two engine MD-11. Southwest has had alot of influence over the cockpit design of the 737 through the years, and if keeping the cockpit the same has made them money or reduced training cost, you can't argue that. I'm all for a cleaner design and reducing the number of spare light bulbs carried over the FO's head, but hope to keep all pilots current on the NG/Max with differences training.

 

[SWA/FO]

Hopefully he was displaced. That would serve him right. Now he'll get to experience commuting to the west coast for less money.

Good thing for him "Its Not about the money!" he will do fine.

 

[redflyer65]

Yea, the arguement was funny. It was never about the money until they realized they weren't getting the money......then it suddenly became about the money!

 

[PCL_128]

Yea, the arguement was funny. It was never about the money until they realized they weren't getting the money......then it suddenly became about the money!

Some of us still don't care about the money.

 

[SWA/FO]

Some of us still don't care about the money.

So your strike vote was about what? Oh, I know - Its about the 717, please don't take them away, we love 'em!

 

[DUBLINFLYER]

PCL doesn't care about money, he has been shelling out dues to ALPA ( and probably still is) and what did he get in the end 00000, not even a thank you. I bet when you transition over to SWAPA you will get demand letters from ALPA for the dues

 

[PCL_128]

So your strike vote was about what?

Perhaps you missed it, but that contract dispute was settled three years ago.

 

[waveflyer]

That's the disconnect about you, PCL-
Aviation isn't a hobby for the pilots you represent or us at swapa. It's not some union call to duty. Not a mission, not just a passion, nor means to a political end. (Like it appears to be for you)
For the vast majority of us, and listen carefully, bc this is a bit complicated- for most- IT'S WHAT WE DO TO MAKE MONEY.

But go ahead, keep to that position

 

[PCL_128]

That's the disconnect about you, PCL-
Aviation isn't a hobby for the pilots you represent or us at swapa. It's not some union call to duty. Not a mission, not just a passion, nor means to a political end. (Like it appears to be for you)
For the vast majority of us, and listen carefully, bc this is a bit complicated- for most- IT'S WHAT WE DO TO MAKE MONEY.

But go ahead, keep to that position

Until very recently, it's what I've always done to make money also, wave. But selling seniority for an extra thirty grand ain't worth it.

 

[intooclose]

Thank you Wave for stating the fu(king obvious. When my daughters tuition came due.....I said to the the school...."But, I am based in ATL and fly a 717!?" "I'm 78% on the seniority list with 17 days off a month!?"

I still can't believe they made me pay it.

 

[intooclose]

Until very recently, it's what I've always done to make money also, wave. But selling seniority for an extra thirty grand ain't worth it.

Well, my money goes to kids school tuition, clothes, van with car seats, dance classes, baseball fees/uniform/equipment, food for 5 people, and birthday parties that must be better than last years!

Not crappy European cars and dinner rolls!

 

[intooclose]

At some point maybe you could just listen and not talk so much. Its also good advice if you ever go on a date.

 

[intooclose]

And if you come back with...stop having so many kids. Maybe you should give that advice to your parents. Seriously.

 

[freightdogfred]

Well, my money goes to kids school tuition, clothes, van with car seats, dance classes, baseball fees/uniform/equipment, food for 5 people, and birthday parties that must be better than last years!

Not crappy European cars and dinner rolls!

To each his own. I spend 80% of my munny on fast cars, booze an wimmen. The other 20% I just piss away. What difference does it make to you what someone spends their munny on?

You found what you like, so have a few more kids

 

[madjack]

Wasn't the point that this job is about the $$, and to lose pay (and seats and ATL base) in a quest for more seniority was a fools errand..

 

[waveflyer]

That is the point-
My life is kinda like freight dog, plus one little one I'd do anything for - but a business that still matches my income at SWA-
What I've never misunderstood is that money's a big part of the aviation equation for most of us-
Anybody throwing down $25k to sit right seat in a beech has a strange view about money and this career

 

[SWA/FO]

Perhaps you missed it, but that contract dispute was settled three years ago.

Yeah, about the time your Company was purchased.

Until very recently, it's what I've always done to make money also, wave. But selling seniority for an extra thirty grand ain't worth it.

Stop being a sissy, Your group voted over 83% for the deal you got. You should have convinced more people to vote no. You got me confused, I thought it was a "paycut" - now you claim an extra 30K? Which is it? Was seniority sold for a paycut or more money??

:bawling:

 

[PCL_128]

You found what you like, so have a few more kids

Please don't encourage him. It's bad enough that he's already been breeding. We don't need even more of his DNA out in the gene pool.

 

[PCL_128]

You got me confused, I thought it was a "paycut" - now you claim an extra 30K? Which is it? Was seniority sold for a paycut or more money??

:bawling:

Yes, you are confused. No doubt about that.

AIP1 was a pay increase. AIP2 is a pay cut for captains, a pay raise for FOs. But in neither case is a pay raise worth giving up 25% relative seniority.

 

[Crash Pad]

Yes, you are confused. No doubt about that.

AIP1 was a pay increase. AIP2 is a pay cut for captains, a pay raise for FOs. But in neither case is a pay raise worth giving up 25% relative seniority.

Explain that.

Most of us gave up 100% seniority to come to AirTran or SWA. I think we all did it for the money. You can easily buy seniority right now. Apply at Great Lakes and you will be in the top 10% in under 10 years. Why? Because those pilots will all give up 100% seniority for pay and you would take a massive pay cut for seniority.

 

[Ty Webb]

Yeah, about the time your Company was purchased.



Stop being a sissy, Your group voted over 83% for the deal you got. You should have convinced more people to vote no. You got me confused, I thought it was a "paycut" - now you claim an extra 30K? Which is it? Was seniority sold for a paycut or more money??

:bawling:

Come on, now . . . . Do we really have to clarify this?

AAI CA --> SWA FO = $30K pay CUT

AAI FO --> SWA FO = $30K pay RAISE (or more)

The "YES" vote by AAI Pilots came after threats were made to shut down AAI. Do you really consider that a valid indicator of whether or not they thought it was a fair offer? :erm:

And, while we're at it, and in the interest of saving you from further buffoonery-

The AAI Pilots had ALREADY REJECTED A CONTRACT WITH THESE (new) PAY RATES BEFORE the Merger offer.

If you still don't recognize the above, you just don't want to.

 

[waveflyer]

Yes PCL, it certainly isn't worth it- even though getting close to what you thought you deserved would put you ahead of where you'd be with date of hire.
We all are so empathetic to your plight and the unfairness of it all
:-/

 

[Dash Power]

Can you guys please be fair with the numbers that were being earned before the purchase.

After five plus years of negotiations, a strike vote passed by like 97% of the AT pilots several months prior, the purchase created the agreement you now have in place. Saying it was just some magical coincidence is a classic sense of denial. AT and its pilots weren't even close to a TA before then.

The pay raises AT got were provided by SWA. You likely would either be working for about the same wages or not working because of a strike.

 

[madjack]

AAI CA --> SWA FO = $30K pay CUT

AAI FO --> SWA FO = $30K pay RAISE (or more)

The "YES" vote by AAI Pilots came after threats were made to shut down AAI. Do you really consider that a valid indicator of whether or not they thought it was a fair offer? :erm:


Yes I agree, the second offer was worse and GK used his leverage.

But would the first offer have passed? Was the seniority bump worth it...doesn't matter, it's done...IMHO, you should have gotten the money and a rebid, but what do I know...seems like Kelly is saving a few bucks at the expense of the "culture". I personally benefited from AAI MEC voting down SL9 as did other senior SWA FOs, but the majority of our FOs paid the price and all the AAI pilots lost (more) money than the "pay cut" of SL10...