MaxBlast feeling the LUV!

[freightdogfred]

If the 717 was so great, why did they make so few?


They suck.

Au contrare, mon frere, salope ignorant!

The reason according to Wiki is lack of commonality of parts and training within it's family as compared to the A-319/20/21 or next-Gen Boeings 737-700/800/900.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_717

Being as Boeing now owned Douglas it kinda competed for orders with the 737 line so that didn't really make a lot of sense either. The sophistication of the flight guidance system may have had something to do with SWA's desire to unload them as well. It's a great airplane, quiet, efficient, and very reliable now the kinks in the Rolls motors have been worked out. The limited ability to carry cargo could be easily rectified by raising the landing weight from 110K from 104, artificially lowered by FL and Boeing to save on landing fees.
Apparently the deal Delta got from SW was so lucrative, I'm sure you'll be seeing them on the ramp in ATL for quite some time.

 

[jball2]

Straight from Gary Kelly's mouth, Delta is paying the same lease rates we were. We are paying for the conversion which costs double what it would cost us to convert to SWA but getting rid of the second airframe will pay for it in short order. I don't remember the exact timeframe. The 717 cost the same for us to operate as a -700 with 20+ % greater revenue potential and a more diverse mission for the -700.

Yes, the technology is better in the 717 but that doesn't make it cost effective.

I do like the quiet though!

 

[scoreboardII]

Au contrare, mon frere, salope ignorant!

The reason according to Wiki is lack of commonality of parts and training within it's family as compared to the A-319/20/21 or next-Gen Boeings 737-700/800/900.

READ: They suck. If they were marketable, they would have made 5000 of them.

We are paying Delta $200,000 per jet per year till lease end to take them off our hands.

We still make money doing that.

Delta gets a jet that is marginally attractive even with a $200,000 float per jet, and only because THEY have a dc9 trained cadre.

Good airplane? Sure. Good airplane for commercial aviation? Heck no. The market has spoken.

 

[jball2]

Gary told us that wasnt true about the 200k per year per jet.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2

 

[maxblast72]

When the cost of fuel represents more than 30% of the operating costs for airlines, larger aircraft in general have lower unit costs than smaller aircraft. That is a big reason why SWA is going to use new B737-800s and used B737-700s to replace the B717 fleet and increase their average numbers of seats per departure. At the same time, Delta is going use the B717 to replace a lot of CRJ-700/900 flying so those aircraft will be free to replace CRJ-200 flying. It is called upgaging, and SWA/Delta aren't the only 2 airlines doing this in today's high fuel price environment.

 

[DUBLINFLYER]

Maybe some of the AT pilots have never flown a 300/500 without the glass- back to the days of real piloting - dials, knobs and lots of switches - fly like a real pilot and not a trained monkey - anyone can press a button

 

[humveedriver]

Maybe some of the AT pilots have never flown a 300/500 without the glass- back to the days of real piloting - dials, knobs and lots of switches - fly like a real pilot and not a trained monkey - anyone can press a button

And do it for 7.5 hours on six legs. Man up bitches! And don't mind the stiff ass throttles that loosely correlate to some kind of power setting. A real pilot uses "the force" for that kind of stuff. Even our passengers like it old school. That's why the enjoy using a Lav that smells worse than an outhouse in a cabin that averages 90F. I trade every -700 trip I can for a -500 two step.

 

[Clyde Frog]

When the cost of fuel represents more than 30% of the operating costs for airlines, larger aircraft in general have lower unit costs than smaller aircraft. That is a big reason why SWA is going to use new B737-800s and used B737-700s to replace the B717 fleet and increase their average numbers of seats per departure. At the same time, Delta is going use the B717 to replace a lot of CRJ-700/900 flying so those aircraft will be free to replace CRJ-200 flying. It is called upgaging, and SWA/Delta aren't the only 2 airlines doing this in today's high fuel price environment.

That's right Mr blasting 'em to the maximum, tell them what's up. Those fools runnin alpa cost me lots a cash they shoulda listened to ya back when you was tryin to tell them. SW is rockin my nuts off right now out here in the land of oak flying the 737 and cashing checks.

 

[Ty Webb]

Maybe some of the AT pilots have never flown a 300/500 without the glass- back to the days of real piloting - dials, knobs and lots of switches - fly like a real pilot and not a trained monkey - anyone can press a button

Ooh . . . I can hardly wait to fly a prehistoric sweatbox for $30K less per year, and maybe even listen to some fool tell me how much better I have it.

 

[texman]

Ooh . . . I can hardly wait to fly a prehistoric sweatbox for $30K less per year, and maybe even listen to some fool tell me how much better I have it.

At least you have a job.

 

[Clyde Frog]

Ooh . . . I can hardly wait to fly a prehistoric sweatbox for $30K less per year, and maybe even listen to some fool tell me how much better I have it.

Come on Tyrone they ain't bad airplanes. Most SW capts won't let me fly those old birds anyways so I just get to talk on the radio to the boys in the tower. Cool by me.

 

[Remington]

Ooh . . . I can hardly wait to fly a prehistoric sweatbox for $30K less per year, and maybe even listen to some fool tell me how much better I have it.

Ive been following all the Swa/AT threads:

It seems that a maxed out swa FO makes $180k a year. So, if you are making $30k less and you were a Capt at AT, that means you were making $210k/yr. Accomplishing that by flying 100 hrs/mo at a rate of $175/hr. Sound about right?

 

[Wesb737fo]

Using 1200 hours credit. A 12 year Capt at AT would gross 204,000. add around 18,972 for SWA 401k contribution and 6700 per diem and 7300 for profit share. Total package is around $237,000.

At SWA the same 1200 hours would gross 181,200 with 16,800 401K and 6700 per diem and 6523 profit share. Totals out to around 210,000. Somebody check the math.

 

[madjack]

Ok SWA FOs need a raise

 

[atldc9]

All this back and forth about pay cuts, pay rates, comparisons, etc is never going to end. There is no a
"average" pilot in either side. Everyone has a little different take on how much/little they work, and what type of flying they bid and or can hold. If you're going to transition talk to someone who already has and was around your seniority. They can tell you what they hold, and show you actual months of flying and pay.

If you really want to get into a mine is bigger than yours comparison, use the profit sharing number. The same formula and percentage was used for both sides.

 

[DonVerita]

Well, not to pile on, but....., okay, I guess I AM going to pile on.

We have a little bit over a hundred -300s left, and I think 18 or 19 -500s. I realize that may seem like a lot to an airline with a total fleet size of 140 or so, but it's not really that many when it's just over 1/5 of our fleet. And the only reason we haven't retired more (and won't retire some on their orig schedule) is because they're more desireable to the company than your 717s. I don't know if this occurred to you or not, Don, but it's more important to airlines that their planes make money, than it is that their airplanes are easier for the pilots to use. In other words, Southwest would rather keep the -300s longer than to keep your "fabulous" 717s. Why? Let's take a look, shall we? AirTran 717 Cons: lease payments, carries fewer passengers and dick for cargo, less range--and all this for the same cost per hour to operate. 717 Pros: the pilots like the automation better. Wow, that's a tough one to figure out.

As far as there being "nothing negative about moving forward with advanced technology," I agree with you there. However, there's also nothing negative about not switching to the newest technology when it isn't strictly necessary. Especially when you're still making money with the old technology. It's painfully obvious that our business model produces a higher yield than Airtran's ever did with its "advanced technology."

And while Southwest isn't necessarily on the forefront with technology (because they don't feel they need to be), your assertion about "innovation" is crap. Who do you think pioneered the high frequency, low cost model that your predecessor and countless others have emulated? Who had the first airline Internet presence? Who still has the number-1 Internet presence among airlines? Who pioneered the quicker turn to maximize the planes' time in the air? The point-to-point model for efficiency? The single fleet design to allow for more efficient and cost-effective scheduling, training and maintenance? I guess you don't consider it "innovation" if we don't have auto-engine-start on our smallest airplanes.

And finally, this is a serious note Don: if you REALLY believe on any level whatsoever, that Southwest management is getting rid of the 717s to help "capture captain seats," then you really ought to see a professional about your rampant (and obviously debilitating) paranoia.

Bubba

Bubba...please do take another lap if you can put down the Wild Turkey Kool-Aid long enough to do so.

You and the rest of your gang keep telling yourselves how great you are, how innovative you are with your "#1 Internet" et al while peddling along in your old as dirt Classics; hot cabins and mx breakdowns nothwithstanding. Funny how Delta can make the 717 profitable but somehow SWA can't.

Inefficiencies reign supreme at SWA. We see it every day and as much as you probably hate to admit, I bet you see it too. Getting stuck in the old ways of the famous SWA mantra, "That's How We've Always Done It" has been the demise of many a large corporation. Don't think for one second that yours is any different.

Finally, your comment about upgrading to new technology should be done only when it's "strictly necessary" is exactly the type of attitude I'd expect from someone who shuns technology rather than embraces it. I bet you just love flying the -300 sweatbox on 6 intra-state legs in Texas don't you, doing max speed to get to your LBB layover 5 minutes early. Technology should be a never-ending rolling advancement. Stop by ATL one day and take the tram over to the new F Concourse to see a piece of it up close.

 

[waveflyer]

Don, are you mistaking yourself and us for airline execs?

Pretty sure we're line pilots here...

I'm sorry you lost your little pond to keep viewing yourself as bigger than you are.

Levy your critiques at mgmt, not us- but before you do, maybe it'll be a good idea to relax and catch a real view from the inside of this place before getting uber opinionated? Maybe?
You're critiques are strange bc embracing technology is exactly where we're going- you just want it yesterday apparently with no thought to transition, Feds, etc-

My thoughts are to see where we are in 2015, work with mgmt as well as possible til then and just be patient until then

 

[humveedriver]

Using 1200 hours credit. A 12 year Capt at AT would gross 204,000. add around 18,972 for SWA 401k contribution and 6700 per diem and 7300 for profit share. Total package is around $237,000.

At SWA the same 1200 hours would gross 181,200 with 16,800 401K and 6700 per diem and 6523 profit share. Totals out to around 210,000. Somebody check the math.

Either scenario is dreadful. At this rate I may have to start washing my uniform shirts, instead of throwing them away at the end of the trip and buying new ones. Miss ya bro!

 

[Wesb737fo]

Yo... I guess you're in DAL. It looks like my time at the Tran is just about up. Prob. Coming over in Dec. BTW I will credit 1200 hours this year, but I doubt I will be able to do this next year since I won't get into the ATL. Did you have to slaughter a puppy in ground school to prove your loyalty?

 

[scoreboardII]

Nope, puppy is so 1980's, it's bite the head off a baby seal during the V1 cut now.