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Man Laws...Pilot Laws

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What the FO considers to be dictatorial and stupid may just be the CA's greater experience which the FO does not have the experience to recognize.

Or it may actually be dictatorial and stupid. He's the captain; suck it up, junior.
 
embpic1 said:
If I am starting to get uncomfortable about an FO's flap schedule, I will place my hand on the flap lever as a hint. If they still don't get the message I will say 'How about flaps --'. Don't take it the wrong way. It is just a nonverbal way of saying 'I think you need some flaps'. If you have a problem with that then you can handle it how you want when you are the captain.
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Why does the FO "need" flaps? Are you about to stall? If I am 1 knot fast to you put your hand on the thrust levers as a non-verbal cue? Put your hand on the flaps all you want, I'll just stare out the window and pretend not to notice. If you say "how about some flaps" I'll just say "no thanks."
 
Seriously, out of everything in the whole world that could potentially bother someone, you guys pick the hand on the flap handle thing and calling the CRJ9, "the 9?"

If I am PNF, I'll sometimes put my hand on the flap handle if I know that the PF will be calling for it soon, and that's especially if we're trying to slow down quick. It's not an affront to the PF, it's just trying to help out. Some of you people out there have awfully thin skin.

Pick your battles.

-Goose
 
well there's a difference between two pilots being in sync and knowing when the other guy is about to call for something, and captains who are back seat drivers
 
I'd put my hand on the flap handle too if the FO didn't realize he had a tailwind, is fast & high, has his TCAS looking up on the 40 mile ring, and has no clue he's running over the MD-80 in front of him that's gonna roll out long.

Of course, that's never actually happened before....
 
Papa Woody said:
You're probly that dooshbag who thinks 200KIAS, clean, is dangerous!
Click to expand...

Just like when I call for flaps 1, 3 times before getting the fo to realize that actually is a flaps setting.... yes, flaps one at +180 to 210 kts is an appropriate setting in most situations.
 
Papa Woody said:
You're probly that dooshbag who thinks 200KIAS, clean, is dangerous!
Click to expand...

Ummm... Well lets see.

In the EMB120, nope 200KIAS is fine.

In the 747 at typical landing weights, yup that's a problem.
 
Club ORD FO said:
Why does the FO "need" flaps? Are you about to stall? If I am 1 knot fast to you put your hand on the thrust levers as a non-verbal cue? Put your hand on the flaps all you want, I'll just stare out the window and pretend not to notice. If you say "how about some flaps" I'll just say "no thanks."
Click to expand...

Just make sure that you don't hesitate long enough for him to say "my plane" when he calls for a go around 1ft below the company dictated stabilized approach altitude if you are 1 kt above the accepted criteria.
 
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Club ORD FO said:
If you say "how about some flaps" I'll just say "no thanks."
Click to expand...

Ok smart guy. If I ask you 'how bout some flaps' there is a reason. If I am concerned about stalling then I have let you go too far. Believe me, I will suggest flaps well before that point. If you say 'no thanks' after I suggest flaps then I will tell you to put flaps out. You don't like it? Fine. Call the chief pilot on the ground and tell him/her your story. I am sure they would love to hear it.

The point is this. The Captain is the final authority. If he/she wants flaps, then that's what they get.

Not every pilot is an ace like you. When you make captain someday and an FO is making you uncomfortable on an approach I am sure you will just sit there and let him go. A passive commander. Just what a cockpit needs.
 
Emb's right. The captain has every right to override your decision. Some of us actually respect experience and don't feel insecure defering.
 
Axel said:
What the FO considers to be dictatorial and stupid may just be the CA's greater experience which the FO does not have the experience to recognize.

Or it may actually be dictatorial and stupid. He's the captain; suck it up, junior.
Click to expand...

Oh please. We're not going to crash or go around because I don't feel like having flaps out 20 miles out. God forbit something should happen to the CA, how in the world would I be able to fly the airplane without his guidance???? I would, I would declare an emergency and would ask for guidance from some CA on the ground a-la Hollywood movies because I have no idea when to put the flaps out so we don't crash. Give me a break, I'll go along with it because life is too short but some people just like to be backseat drivers, you could be spot on with your approach, they're always going to say something, you know who you are.
 
CX880 said:
Oh please. We're not going to crash or go around because I don't feel like having flaps out 20 miles out. God forbit something should happen to the CA, how in the world would I be able to fly the airplane without his guidance???? I would, I would declare an emergency and would ask for guidance from some CA on the ground a-la Hollywood movies because I have no idea when to put the flaps out so we don't crash. Give me a break, I'll go along with it because life is too short but some people just like to be backseat drivers, you could be spot on with your approach, they're always going to say something, you know who you are.
Click to expand...

Lets just make this nice and simple for everyone. Configure the airplane like you're supposed to according to the FAA approved and company published profiles. When a captain puts his hand on the lever it's generally because you're not following procedure. Therefore...he/she no longer has any idea what you are doing. I couldn't care less if your feelings get hurt. It's better than sitting in the left seat trying to guess what the heck the other guy/gal is doing with your ticket on the line.
 
asayankee said:
Lets just make this nice and simple for everyone. Configure the airplane like you're supposed to according to the FAA approved and company published profiles. When a captain puts his hand on the lever it's generally because you're not following procedure. Therefore...he/she no longer has any idea what you are doing. I couldn't care less if your feelings get hurt. It's better than sitting in the left seat trying to guess what the heck the other guy/gal is doing with your ticket on the line.
Click to expand...

Fair enough.
 
CX880 said:
Oh please. We're not going to crash or go around because I don't feel like having flaps out 20 miles out. God forbit something should happen to the CA, how in the world would I be able to fly the airplane without his guidance???? I would, I would declare an emergency and would ask for guidance from some CA on the ground a-la Hollywood movies because I have no idea when to put the flaps out so we don't crash. Give me a break, I'll go along with it because life is too short but some people just like to be backseat drivers, you could be spot on with your approach, they're always going to say something, you know who you are.
Click to expand...


greater experience which the FO does not have the experience to recognize.
Click to expand...
Case.

In.

Point.

You'll understand someday, Junior.
 
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If you were born with a Penis and Testicles between your legs, or even if the Testicles are missing, please act as such on the job. It's bad enough that some male FAs are more feminine than the female FAs. NO ONE should have to tolerate it behind a bullet proof door in an enclosed room.

I don't care what your beliefs are or what your orientation is. Don't display it to me, don't tell me about it or him, and when the "crap" starts to hit the fan in flight, surely don't bring it out more and make me want to hit you more than I want to land this POS aircraft. I have friends that are gay, and it doesn't bother me a bit. I listen to their issues about their boyfriends, etc., and actually listen, for they are my friends. None of them are as feminine as some of the wussies I've flown with recently.
 
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Amish RakeFight said:
Some of us actually respect experience and don't feel insecure defering.
Click to expand...

But it's a lack of experience being expressed by a captain's hand on the flap lever.

If it's merely a matter of flap technique, an experienced captain would defer to the flying pilot, and not micro-manage.

If it's a matter of safety, the captain would be direct and speak up, not just hope the F.O. notices his "hint."

Hand on the flap lever is kind of a milquetoasty captain thing.
 
Papa Woody said:
But it's a lack of experience being expressed by a captain's hand on the flap lever.

If it's merely a matter of flap technique, an experienced captain would defer to the flying pilot, and not micro-manage.

If it's a matter of safety, the captain would be direct and speak up, not just hope the F.O. notices his "hint."

Hand on the flap lever is kind of a milquetoasty captain thing.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Well stated.
 
Thou shalt not charge incidentals expenses to another crewmembers room without expecting an a$$kicking.

Thous shalt declare mini-bar usage when checking out or otherwise prepare for the wrath of the rest of the crew.
 
To which I would say, "my aircraft, flaps 1". Problem solved.






Club ORD FO said:
Why does the FO "need" flaps? Are you about to stall? If I am 1 knot fast to you put your hand on the thrust levers as a non-verbal cue? Put your hand on the flaps all you want, I'll just stare out the window and pretend not to notice. If you say "how about some flaps" I'll just say "no thanks."
Click to expand...
 
The new procedure will be that the NFP wil keep their hands on both the flap handle and gear handle the entire flight. EMBPIC, the name sums it all up. I bet you were very popular with pro-standards then and now. We will now rename everyone on this site as FO & PIC just to make sure that we have a hierarchy established.
 
Buckeye said:
The new procedure will be that the NFP wil keep their hands on both the flap handle and gear handle the entire flight. EMBPIC, the name sums it all up. I bet you were very popular with pro-standards then and now. We will now rename everyone on this site as FO & PIC just to make sure that we have a hierarchy established.
Click to expand...


Ok this is starting to get stupid. If you haven't figured it out yet, the captain sets the tone in the cockpit. If he/she wants to use the 'hand on the flap handle' as an indication that they want flaps then so be it. The funny thing is that I have hardly ever had to do this. Most guys I fly with do a great job. I used to fly with a captain that did this all the time. Sure it used to bug me but I sure as hell didn't say 'No thanks'. I asked for flaps to make him happy. I sure as hell didn't dwell on it.
 

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