Major Airline vs NetJets

[TurboJetCpt]

Going to SWA, FEDEX or UPS would be a great move, depending on age, commuting and QOL, even out of NJA...but no other airlines are worth the move...just my .02

 

[kman]

No one will argue that SWA, UPS, and Fedex have higher monetary compensation but I would put our QOL against theirs any day. How much is that worth to you? Throw in the fact that we don't have to worry (nearly as much) about age 65, cabotage, sabotage, or price wars and I think its pretty dang close between us and them. Now if we could just get into CASS it would be perfect...[/quote]


sorry man would have to disagree, swa for ex. has a min overnight of 12 hours ,min of 15 days off for the junior reserves, senior guys can get up 20 off, being able to plan an overnight that is longer than 10-12 hours is great. Don't get me wrong guys, im glad to have a good job at nja, its just a schedule and overnights longer than 12 hours are great and i still miss that a lot.

 

[Cavpilot]

Don't get me wrong guys, im glad to have a good job at nja, its just a schedule and overnights longer than 12 hours are great and i still miss that a lot.

So what airline did you come from that didn't do reduced (8 hour) rest?

 

[kman]

how many reduced rest overnights have you done in a 3 or 4 day trip? my last gig, start around 5-9pm, and averaged 15 hours on the overnight with the exceptions for weather and last day so you could get back early (9-11am) on your last day. Too bad upgrade was at least another 5-7 years away and fo pay was capped at 37k. I did not commute which counts for a lot, but i would make the move the right job.

 

[Diesel]

sorry man would have to disagree, swa for ex. has a min overnight of 12 hours ,min of 15 days off for the junior reserves, senior guys can get up 20 off, being able to plan an overnight that is longer than 10-12 hours is great. Don't get me wrong guys, im glad to have a good job at nja, its just a schedule and overnights longer than 12 hours are great and i still miss that a lot.

15 days off for junior reserves at fdx... now here is the other half of the story.

your reserve schedule will be broken up into multiple "tours" of 4 days making commuting unrealistic. Oh you want to commute in on a monday? Sorry fredex doesn't fly monday. 1 in 7 yup you get that if you have 28hrs off in hkg. There is your 1 in 7. Looks like you're working 14 days straight on the other side of the world. Plus count the commute to panc. fuuun.

The grass isn't allways greener. It is green but pilots tend to make their jobs sound better than they are. Goes for NJ too.

 

[Cavpilot]

how many reduced rest overnights have you done in a 3 or 4 day trip? my last gig, start around 5-9pm, and averaged 15 hours on the overnight with the exceptions for weather and last day so you could get back early (9-11am) on your last day. Too bad upgrade was at least another 5-7 years away and fo pay was capped at 37k. I did not commute which counts for a lot, but i would make the move the right job.

My last gig you could pretty much plan on every last overnight on the trip being reduced rest. Thereby circumventing any compensatory rest. Also we had very unproductive long overnights. Without a good trip or duty rig, you were hosed.

 

[kman]

My last gig you could pretty much plan on every last overnight on the trip being reduced rest. Thereby circumventing any compensatory rest. Also we had very unproductive long overnights. Without a good trip or duty rig, you were hosed.

I always liked my last overnight being reduced so I get back early. My last year at the airlines had an 18 day off 85-90 line. As far as long overnight being unproductive, that usually the boring slamclickers fault or a bad case of FFS(Fugly Flight attendant syndrome).j/k

Also day trips lines were the best, once in a blue moon could hold the almighty, tues, wed, thur 10am-5pm line. But I think I should stop talking before i get beat down by my 1108 brothers, for being ungrateful lazy 121 guy.

 

[Ralph Wiggums]

No one will argue that SWA, UPS, and Fedex have higher monetary compensation but I would put our QOL against theirs any day. How much is that worth to you? Throw in the fact that we don't have to worry (nearly as much) about age 65, cabotage, sabotage, or price wars and I think its pretty dang close between us and them. Now if we could just get into CASS it would be perfect...

I'm glad you are happy at NJ and I wish you many years of safe and happy flying there, but your comments about QOL got me thinking. Here is a look at my last 8 trips at SWA:

Avg block flown per day- 6:24
Avg duty day- 8:22
Avg overnight- 15:58
Avg legs flown per day- 2.83
Max number of nights away from home in a row- 2

Between Dec 1 and scheduled thru March 31:

Number of weekend days worked- 7
Number of weekend days off- 28
Days off in Dec- 18
Days off in Jan- 18
Days off in Feb- Scheduled 16, which I have increased to 19
Days off in March- 16

I used some of those days off to pick up extra flying, which is paid at second year rate.

Did I mention I'm still on probation? Year two pay starts soon, which will be an easy $83K, plus per diem, plus any extra flying I pick up.

I've flown regional, fractional, and now SWA. SWA is light years above the other two jobs.

Props to you guys at NJ. You've raised the bar on compensation for the entire frac industry. There are many good things about fractional flying, but if you have 15+ years left of flying and you aren't even considering SWA or the other usual suspects, I think you're doing yourself a disservice, IMHO.

 

[skiandsurf]

Props to you guys at NJ. You've raised the bar on compensation for the entire frac industry. There are many good things about fractional flying, but if you have 15+ years left of flying and you aren't even considering SWA or the other usual suspects, I think you're doing yourself a disservice, IMHO.

One of the things I like about NJs is most of the people would love to fly on us, whereas most people dread having to fly on SWA. NJs provides a top notch service, whereas SWA has brought this industry down to shorts and bomber jackets. Today, SWA is where the pilots want to go, it was just 7 years ago, most people went there as a stepping stone to get to the big dance. Sure I will never make as much money as the SWA pilot, but I will be proud to bring class back to flying.

For the record, I flew 9 days in Jan. I had a 7 day vacation (21 days off). I flew 7 days in Feb (7th-13th). I wont see a plane untill March 7th.

If you really want days off and good pay, my friend flies a Pilatus. He flies about 2-3 days a month and makes $120,000/yr. I dont think he is looking to go to SWA.

 

[JustInfo]

I have one big reason I will never go to SWA (or any of the others) - COMMUTE!

Not gonna do that again, talk about a drag on the QOL.

I assume Mr. Wiggins lives at his base? That may make it worthwhile.

 

[Quimby]

what happens when the Pilatus gets sold?

 

[flyipilot]

One other important factor for me not going to SWA is the fact I have to pay for the job. I have done enough paying for my job...and I really do not see myself investing in a B-737 type rating just to get a possible interview. At NetJets they do the right thing in providing you with the proper training and a type rating in the aircraft you are hired into. All free. As it should be. Even McDonalds provides free initial training.. I know people will say that it is a small price to pay to get into a job where you will make good money. But, I already have a job where I make good money and it will be as good as at SWA. Not to mention I have heard in the not so distant past that SWA management was talking to unions about first time possible pay freeze or cuts. That might have changed but it was something I heard back when fuel was out of control...and it can be that way again. So, all I am saying I do not care how great thr peanuts are on SWA...companies should stop charging pilots to work there. Or is this how they really make a profit...hmmmm.

 

[Twotter76]

One of the things I like about NJs is most of the people would love to fly on us, whereas most people dread having to fly on SWA.

Ain't that the truth. I HATE flying SWA. If I wanted to stand in line all day i'd go to the DMV. But I suppose the Nascar fans have to get around too. Besides, I never knew there were so many other uses for garbage bags. Learn something new every day.

For the record, I flew 9 days in Jan. I had a 7 day vacation (21 days off). I flew 7 days in Feb (7th-13th). I wont see a plane untill March 7th.

Hmm sounds like my schedule. Worked 17 days in Jan but 5 of them were paid extended days and 2 were for a union meeting in CMH. Flew 4 days in Feb (6th-9th, 1 was an extended day) and now i'm off until the 6th of March. Hooray for vacation! I don't think i'm going to go to SWA either but everyone senior to me certainly should, its obviously better there.

 

[SpaceBall 1]

One other important factor for me not going to SWA is the fact I have to pay for the job. I have done enough paying for my job...and I really do not see myself investing in a B-737 type rating just to get a possible interview. At NetJets they do the right thing in providing you with the proper training and a type rating in the aircraft you are hired into. All free. As it should be. Even McDonalds provides free initial training.. I know people will say that it is a small price to pay to get into a job where you will make good money. But, I already have a job where I make good money and it will be as good as at SWA. Not to mention I have heard in the not so distant past that SWA management was talking to unions about first time possible pay freeze or cuts. That might have changed but it was something I heard back when fuel was out of control...and it can be that way again. So, all I am saying I do not care how great thr peanuts are on SWA...companies should stop charging pilots to work there. Or is this how they really make a profit...hmmmm.

Be careful who you throw rocks at. It wasn't that long ago that NJ made pilots pay double the cost of a 737 type for a job that paid A LOT less than SWA. Also, If you think your pay could never be cut at NJ, you're living in a dreamworld. Paycuts can happen to any body, at any time in any occupation.

 

[JustInfo]

Like was said not too long ago during our negotiations - NJA will cease to exists before there are any pay cuts. I think the term was STFD.

 

[flyipilot]

Be careful who you throw rocks at. It wasn't that long ago that NJ made pilots pay double the cost of a 737 type for a job that paid A LOT less than SWA. Also, If you think your pay could never be cut at NJ, you're living in a dreamworld. Paycuts can happen to any body, at any time in any occupation.

I am not throwing rocks...just stating facts. Yes, I am very aware that paycuts can happen anywhere, but when NJ was getting a new contract with raises during one of the worst oil crisis in recent years, every single major airline was cutting pay, benefits, and work rules. I did work for an sirline that charged me to work there...ACA and I like most foolish, hungry, and new pilots took the bait and paid for training. They dropped it a year later because they had to be more competitive. If pilots would take a stand and stop applying to SWA, they would have NO choice but to drop the pay for hire policy. Shame on their own MEC for allowing it to go on and on and on...but hey they had to pay so why not make everyone else pay. I happen to enjoy flying on SWA and am not in any way bashing the company on any other front than their pilot hiring parctice. But, this is a major reason I would not work there but a long as we keep blindly feeding them...they keep laughing to the training center. When does it ever end? When do we ever start to look at our careers as professional as a doctor, lawyer, or skilled labor? Do we keep taking the jobs at any pay rate? At any price? Mesa, Virgin America (provided DOT caves in to a few SFO lost souls), Skybus.....who will be next...how about we start an airline where we charge the pilot to fly the airbus? hmmmm...$65.00 an hour seems fair since they can build up their needed 1300 PIC turbine time just to go pay for a 737 type and apply to the dream job at SWA. Just might work. We can give them a great benefit package...(for a small billable fee), and give them a monthly guarantee of 90 hours...(min airbus rental). I know Orenstein would be drooling..just dont tell Branson...oppps...he is not really involved with VA...

 

[FamilyGuy]

I did work for an sirline that charged me to work there...ACA and I like most foolish, hungry, and new pilots took the bait and paid for training. They dropped it a year later because they had to be more competitive. If pilots would take a stand and stop applying to SWA, they would have NO choice but to drop the pay for hire policy. Shame on their own MEC for allowing it to go on and on and on...but hey they had to pay so why not make everyone else pay. I happen to enjoy flying on SWA and am not in any way bashing the company on any other front than their pilot hiring parctice. But, this is a major reason I would not work there but a long as we keep blindly feeding them...they keep laughing to the training center. When does it ever end? When do we ever start to look at our careers as professional as a doctor, lawyer, or skilled labor?

Every doctor or lawyer that I've met paid for their degree.

Every doctor or lawyer that I've met succeeded or failed based on their skills, not what some third party bargaining group negotiated for them. If they screwed up or had a poor track record they didnt get clients and income. If they do good work and establish a great reputation then they get more clients and raise their rates accordingly.

 

[flyipilot]

Every doctor or lawyer that I've met paid for their degree.

Every doctor or lawyer that I've met succeeded or failed based on their skills, not what some third party bargaining group negotiated for them. If they screwed up or had a poor track record they didnt get clients and income. If they do good work and establish a great reputation then they get more clients and raise their rates accordingly.

That is exactly my point. I paid for my Private thru ATP...and college, just as the doctor and lawyer did. I do know of one hospital in the country that charges a Dr. to come work for them. None. I wish we as pilots would be based on our individual skills as well, we are not. Or at least the union guys are not. I flew many a "fair" pilot who slid through the system only because he had a union. I know people who worked where I did would agree. I would have no problem being judged as the professional I am; as is a doctor or lawyer. My only point was that airlines are notorious for gouging and treating their core employees (pilots, FA's, mechanics, rampers, agents) like crap. They charge for uniforms, McDonalds and In and Out do not, they charge you to fly on your own airline..stand by!, they even used to charge a fee to apply for them. The application processing fee! Some still use this method by making you go through a paid application site. I am very proud I work for one of the few aviation businesses that did not charge to work here, paid for my uniform, and it was free to apply. The airlines will have to see changes in the future as we run out of qualified pilots, yes...even for SWA. Then they will have to pay you for the type!

 

[gunfyter]

Doctors have the best union in the world... the AMA....

Keeps the admissions to med school down thereby eliminating competition.

 

[Diesel]

hey familycuunt is back yipppe. Great more unbiased spin from the company. Whoopdie friggin do.

Most doctor fees are now set by hmo's. Thus why you see a lot of doctors gettting out of specialized medicine and into general practice. Now we're talking about the orthopods the ones that have skills such as surgery much like we have as flying a plane.

Most doctors actually do have a 3rd party negotiate a fee. Meet the AMA. They have set it by limiting the number of doctors coming in the door. Ever notice that there aren't any cameras, voice recorders or even alcohol tests in the operating room? Yup thank the AMA. But diesel if they had those things there wouldn't be this question on what a doctor did during an operation that went wrong. They could be like pilots where we could discect every little move they make. wait here comes the AMA. nope that idea is dead.

Doctors have the key that pilots do not. From day one they are told they are special, they are smarter than the rest, that nobody should question their authority, that they are god and decide on life and death decisions. Ever notice that even the the nurses run the shop the doctors rule with an iron fist and while a nurse might be right a doctor is reminded of his training, you're number 1, you're the best, nobody can question your judgment. They know their skills are in demand even if they do poorly.

Pilots on the other hand will sell out their own mother to fly a shiney new jet. Look at the regionals. The job of a pilot has been micromanaged by so many people that it no longer is a job of authority and command decision. People like familyguy and others think well i can drive a car i'm sure i can do a pilots job. But you'll never see anybody actually go get the training and sacrifices to get to the position where we are flying.

Man those pilots are spoiled, i could do that job, i just don't have the time to get trained or sacrifice flying a freighter through the ice. I could talk like a pilot on a weboard but have no real idea what it is they do. Ahhh the dumming down of the profession.

 

[xjjetdog]

This statement is so true.

I too will put NetJets QOL up against any airline, anytime. There are so many positive intangibles here that you would have to experience them yourself. I don't have the words to explain.

Coming from the 121 world, I was a bit skeptical at first. NetJets and the Airlines are two completely different animals, it's hard to compare them on a level playing field. As far as QOL, I also agree NetJets is far better than any airline. The worst thing about the job is airlining on an AIRLINE. When in a crowded terminal where everyone seems miserable, watching other pilots grab airport food, watching other pilots trying to jumpseat, watching pilots and passengers being herded like cattle, watching pilots get the release to an airport they've been to a million times, I just think to myself "I'm glad I don't have to deal with this mess everyday I come to work." That's just one aspect where the QOL is better at NetJets. Just one.

 

[johnsonrod]

I've heard that a bunch of Jet Blue pilots left for NJA. Is that true? Probably not happy with the E190 pay...

 

[FamilyGuy]

LOL....That didn't take long.

flyipilot - in response to your question why pilots are not perceived as professionals like Doctors, Lawyers etc...I give you Exhibit A.

hey familycuunt is back yipppe. Great more unbiased spin from the company. Whoopdie friggin do.

If that doesn't convince you then just look at his other gem from yesterday:

I got berated from a United captain for not wearing my "cover" while standing in line at applebees in the terminal. He went on about in this time we should show profesionalism and that without my "cover" I was not displaying that. All i kept thinking was WTF is a cover. Then my partner turned around and said, "hats are for losers." you would have thought the guy got punched in the gut.

Later that same day we are still waiting on our flight. Everytime the airline was announcing it was delayed we're smiling bigger and bigger. So this united captain comes up to us and says whats the delay, i've got to get to such and such to fly a 777. Then points to the other pilot who was supposed to be his reserve guy on the same trip. Then told us to watch his seat and walked off.

Eventually he came back and told us, "you look like some enterprising young men why don't you hop up there and get our clearance so we can get out of here." My partner who was 1-0 for the day told the guy we weren't enterprising and we definetly weren't go getters so therefor we aren't going to get the clearance anytime soon. Had a good chuckle over that one too.

In fact, flightinfo is filled with great examples like this. Diesel has the attitude, bearing, and demeanor of a truck driver, so it should come as no surprise that he is perceived as such.

As long as the pilot community lets the militants and jihadists represent them, then your perception in the eyes of the public will suffer.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Doctors have the best union in the world... the AMA....

Keeps the admissions to med school down thereby eliminating competition.

Most doctor fees are now set by hmo's. Thus why you see a lot of doctors gettting out of specialized medicine and into general practice. Now we're talking about the orthopods the ones that have skills such as surgery much like we have as flying a plane.

Most doctors actually do have a 3rd party negotiate a fee. Meet the AMA. They have set it by limiting the number of doctors coming in the door. Ever notice that there aren't any cameras, voice recorders or even alcohol tests in the operating room? Yup thank the AMA. But diesel if they had those things there wouldn't be this question on what a doctor did during an operation that went wrong. They could be like pilots where we could discect every little move they make. wait here comes the AMA. nope that idea is dead.

Doctors have the key that pilots do not. From day one they are told they are special, they are smarter than the rest, that nobody should question their authority, that they are god and decide on life and death decisions. Ever notice that even the the nurses run the shop the doctors rule with an iron fist and while a nurse might be right a doctor is reminded of his training, you're number 1, you're the best, nobody can question your judgment. They know their skills are in demand even if they do poorly.

Pilots on the other hand will sell out their own mother to fly a shiney new jet. Look at the regionals. The job of a pilot has been micromanaged by so many people that it no longer is a job of authority and command decision. People like familyguy and others think well i can drive a car i'm sure i can do a pilots job. But you'll never see anybody actually go get the training and sacrifices to get to the position where we are flying.

Man those pilots are spoiled, i could do that job, i just don't have the time to get trained or sacrifice flying a freighter through the ice. I could talk like a pilot on a weboard but have no real idea what it is they do. Ahhh the dumming down of the profession.

Where do you guys get this idea that the AMA limits the number of doctors in the US?

The AMA no more limits the number of Doctors than the American Bar Association limits the number of lawyers in the US. (And I think we can all agree there are too many of them around)

Here's the latest census data I could find on the number of Doctors, Lawyers, and Pilots in the US:

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/labor_table597.pdf

For those who dont care to read through all the occupations, here's the summary:

Physicians and surgeons - 819,000
Lawyers - 952,000
Aircraft pilots and flight engineers - 116,000​

Doesnt look like we have any shortage of Doctors or Lawyers...​

 

[FLYLOW22]

FG...

Labor Relations not keeping you busy lately back in BWY? Just bored?

Wish I could say it was nice to see your handle on here again... tool.

 

[FLYLOW22]

QOL at NJA... let's see.

Day one: Airline with a paid ticket from my home.

Day two: Fly to a service center and drop the rig off.

Day three: Repo. Fly pax to S. FL. Fly to small island in the Carribbean.

Day four: Beach day!! Walked 7 miles, looked at "scenery", enjoyed beverages.

Day five: Beach day!! Beverages. Scenery, etc. Got some color. Fell asleep to the sound of waves crashing around 2pm in a lounger. Woke up 4 hours later and wiped the drool from my face.

Day six: Airline back to the states.

Day seven: ???


Not bad...

 

[Floyd94]

^ Nice, can't wait to start, hopefully the ultra does some island flying.

 

[RCA]

Sounds like things are kinda rough for ya flow. Let us Know if there is anything we can do to help.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Sounds like things are kinda rough for ya flow. Let us Know if there is anything we can do to help.

Another day down here would be nice... I missed a spot on my shoulder with lotion and it got red. I'd like to even out the tan a bit. Oh well...

 

[FLYLOW22]

^ Nice, can't wait to start, hopefully the ultra does some island flying.

The U-Boat does do some island trips. Usually out and backs that allow for tankering fuel since prist (fuel additive... no fuel heaters) is hard to come by down here.

Bahamas are common... anything else is random and only because NJA didn't have a spare XL or something larger.