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Mainline USAir undercuts AGAIN!

JoeMerchant

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It was bad enough when the USAir MEC undercut the regionals to capture the E170 aircraft, but now once again, they have done the same with the E190s. Why is it OK for mainline to do this, but not a regional? More ALPA hypocracy folks - time to wake up regional pilots. What is so magical about the title "mainline" if it pays the same or less than the "regional"?

Joe
 

FurloughedAgain

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I'm sorry... which "regional" was it that flies the E190? and for what payrate?

As far as I know only one "regional" flies a 90 seat aircraft. Mesa.

If the US Airways payrates are less than Mesa's CR9 payrates then you may have a point.

If not, then you're just pissing into the wind.
 

JoeMerchant

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FurloughedAgain said:
I'm sorry... which "regional" was it that flies the E190? and for what payrate?

As far as I know only one "regional" flies a 90 seat aircraft. Mesa.

If the US Airways payrates are less than Mesa's CR9 payrates then you may have a point.

If not, then you're just pissing into the wind.

The Jetblue rates are less than Comair and Horizons 70 seat rate and less than CHQs 90 seat rate. They are very close to Mesa's 90 seat rates. Not pi$$ing in the wind, just tired of being pi$$ed on by my "brothers" while being told it is for my own good.
 

4lowed

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Joe,

Here's what's great about the mainline. Sure you may start in a regional, but the largest piece of equipment is much bigger than your 50-70 seater, and the pay is much greater at their TOS than yours.

Now here's one that cuts both ways. At the regional you are mainlines little bi**h. In the race to the bottom mainline management can play the regional airlines off of each other to get to the lowest bidder. If your regional contract is unattractive, mainline can shop for a new partner. Obviously if you are sitting at mainline you hate to see your former job and routes go to the regional when times are bad.

I've worked at the regional level and at the mainline. I can tell you that things are better off at the mainline. At the mainline I didn't have to track my own pay and rest requirements. At mainline I don't have to do double duty to cover for my inexperienced dispatcher, or deal with an amateur like "Floyd" from scheduling. At the mainline the training, quality of instruction, and experience of the instructors was way better than at the regional.

I understand your bitterness towards ALPO. They do one thing really well, and that's the study and promotion of safety. Other than that it's the most expensive magazine subscription I've ever had.

Those are just a couple of my thoughts on why the mainline tops the regional hands down.

4lowed
 

FurloughedAgain

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Jetblue is not a "regional". It may not be a major, but its sure as heck not a regional.

Are US Airways/AWA's rates less than Chautauqua's?

These airlines -- I dont care whether you call them "majors" "legacies" or whatever -- have lost over 7000 jobs in the last 4 years.

I applaud them for doing what it takes to ATTEMPT to gain some job security by hanging on to the flying that would otherwise replace the 737.
 

JoeMerchant

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FurloughedAgain said:
Jetblue is not a "regional". It may not be a major, but its sure as heck not a regional.

Are US Airways/AWA's rates less than Chautauqua's?

These airlines -- I dont care whether you call them "majors" "legacies" or whatever -- have lost over 7000 jobs in the last 4 years.

I applaud them for doing what it takes to ATTEMPT to gain some job security by hanging on to the flying that would otherwise replace the 737.

Furloughed, the new USAir/AWA rates are reportedly about the same as Jetblue rates, that was my point. If that is the case, then yes, they did undercut CHQ's 90 seat rate.

I understand your frustration, HOWEVER job security runs both ways. This will be another wedge driven between mainline and regionals. If you advocate undercutting me for your job security, then I will advocate undercutting you for my job security. This is a very slippery slope.

Joe
 

JoeMerchant

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4lowed said:
Joe,

Here's what's great about the mainline. Sure you may start in a regional, but the largest piece of equipment is much bigger than your 50-70 seater, and the pay is much greater at their TOS than yours.
4lowed

Only because we don't have anything larger than 70 seaters. The payscales would be about the same now if we had larger aircraft. If the payscales are roughly the same, it is much more beneficial for me to fly larger aircraft here at the regional level than to go to the "mainline" only to take a paycut for the next 15 years. I see it from your side, but you have to understand the picture is totally different from the perspective of a senior regional pilot. It has become every man for themselves.
 

FurloughedAgain

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I'm not undercutting YOU if i'm establishing payrates for an aircraft that YOU DO NOT FLY!!!

You ARE undercutting ME if you're establishing payrates for an aircraft that was designed to replace an aircraft that I currently fly.

But hey, I dont have a dog in this fight. I dont fly for the airlines anymore. I just can't believe that your vision is so clouded that you cant see the bigger E-Jets for what they are -- replacements.

Or, if you prefer - Guppy Killers
 

Oakum_Boy

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FurloughedAgain said:
I'm not undercutting YOU if i'm establishing payrates for an aircraft that YOU DO NOT FLY!!!

You ARE undercutting ME if you're establishing payrates for an aircraft that was designed to replace an aircraft that I currently fly.

But hey, I dont have a dog in this fight. I dont fly for the airlines anymore. I just can't believe that your vision is so clouded that you cant see the bigger E-Jets for what they are -- replacements.

Or, if you prefer - Guppy Killers


The brand name is nothing. The number of seats is everything. The Bombardier 50-seat jet was designed to replace turboprops. ALPA and mainline MEC's gave management permission to replace mainline jets with RJ's.

Now ALPA is "helping" the poor furloughed guys out, by agreeing to let them fly 100-seat jets for 60 bucks an hour. Just what are the Usair guys gonna come back to if ALPA keeps dropping the bar on larger and larger jets. Regional guys are not the enemy. Look to your thugged-out union leadership. Homey.
 

FurloughedAgain

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Preaching to the choir there my friend.

There is one bankruptcy/liquidation that I am anxiously awaiting.

ALPA.
 

JoeMerchant

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FurloughedAgain said:
I'm not undercutting YOU if i'm establishing payrates for an aircraft that YOU DO NOT FLY!!!


The USAirways pilots DO NOT FLY IT EITHER! They undercut the rates to capture this seat range. You can call it whatever you wish, but it is yet another example of the world revolving around the "mainline" pilot.

FurloughedAgain said:
You ARE undercutting ME if you're establishing payrates for an aircraft that was designed to replace an aircraft that I currently fly.

But hey, I dont have a dog in this fight. I dont fly for the airlines anymore. I just can't believe that your vision is so clouded that you cant see the bigger E-Jets for what they are -- replacements.

Or, if you prefer - Guppy Killers

The USAirways MEC negotiated 70 seat rates at MDA that UNDERCUT the 70 seat rates at ASA, CMR, and MEC. Now the USAirways MEC has negotiated 90 seat rates that are less than CMRs and HZNs 70 seat rates. That is undercutting. Go ahead and call it what you want - I call it WAR! It's a free for all created by management with ALPA's blessing.

As far as being "replacements", every aircraft any regional flies is a "replacement". Remember, mainline used to fly DC3s, Martin404s, and Convair580s. Of course we are replacements. Maybe ALPA should have thought about that 20 years ago. Now it is simply one group looking out for itself at the expense of another group.

Joe
 

JoeMerchant

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FurloughedAgain said:
Preaching to the choir there my friend.

There is one bankruptcy/liquidation that I am anxiously awaiting.

ALPA.

Furloughed,
At least we agree on this. ALPA is self destructing. Time for the ALPA national leadership to join the unemployment ranks!

Joe
 

Crzipilot

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Amazing. Hmmm......a mainline does what it needs for more airplanes and it's undercutting the regional. Remember these sized planes were mainline for years. Now I agree with your views on ALPA, but maybe this is the start of change of tides within. Someone woke up and said WTF are we doing here. (would like to think so, but prob. isn't true)
Anyways, the reality of the situation, is most of the regional feed is contracted. In any situation the contractor is usually held at the whim of the corporation. Though in most situations I've seen, Such as banking, gov't, etc etc, when a contractor is brought in, it's usually at a MUCH HIGHER pay rate than doing it in house. Here, it's quite the opposite, at least on the pilot pay scales. Though I wonder, If the same contract was operated under the mainline flag, would it cost less to operate than the fee for departure contracts that are rampent. If it was less, then I would presume, there's only one point of savings going on, and that's the pay scales.
 

Crzipilot

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OH BTW, have you seen the payscales yet??? If so please post them, I haven't seen them, so how do u know mainline "undercut" the regionals. If your tired of being undercut, why don't you go and apply somewhere it won't happen? Don't want to take the paycut is the theme I generally hear, well most of us that made the jump, took the paycut to do such. Either guys as they came up through the ranks prepared, knowing what it took, or just did what it took. I left a job paying 6 figures, to start over at a major.....as many others did too. Why did they do this??? Why didn't you?
 

michael707767

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here is the deal from USA/AWA point of view. Better to keep those jobs now, even at a lower rate, than to allow them to be outsourced. Down the road when the airlines inevitably start to make money, you can start working to bring up those rates. If you let those jets be outsourced, you have lost that opportunity. Then someone else gets the chance to benifit from higher wages when the industry turns around.

I think a good example was Delta express. Were the pay rates for express low? Yep. Too low? Yep. Did the work rules suck? Yep. Did it stay like that forever? Nope. It took all of one contract for the Delta pilots to bring express pay right back up to the rest of the fleet. If they had given up those jobs, that opportunity was gone.
 

FlyinPiker

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michael707767 said:
here is the deal from USA/AWA point of view. Better to keep those jobs now, even at a lower rate, than to allow them to be outsourced. Down the road when the airlines inevitably start to make money, you can start working to bring up those rates. If you let those jets be outsourced, you have lost that opportunity. Then someone else gets the chance to benifit from higher wages when the industry turns around.

I think a good example was Delta express. Were the pay rates for express low? Yep. Too low? Yep. Did the work rules suck? Yep. Did it stay like that forever? Nope. It took all of one contract for the Delta pilots to bring express pay right back up to the rest of the fleet. If they had given up those jobs, that opportunity was gone.

BRAVO!!!!!! I'm with you 707767 You you guys can talk all the smack you want. Mainline made a mistake when they stared relaxing scope. Now they are trying to reverse the trend. Is there any other way to do that than trying to beat the regionals at there own game? Was Mgmt just going to say....well I guess you've had enough. We'll start giving you airplanes again? Keep talking smack and somehow keep justifying the fact that CAL pays a first year 777 f/o ( yes they have them) $30/hr and a UPS A300 F/O $29/hr.

They are getting the airplane on the property.....hopefully DAL/NWA/CAL can do the same. Good Jobs guys. Flame away...........

Piker
 

shamrock

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michael707767 said:
Better to keep those jobs now, even at a lower rate, than to allow them to be outsourced. Down the road when the airlines inevitably start to make money, you can start working to bring up those rates. If you let those jets be outsourced, you have lost that opportunity. Then someone else gets the chance to benifit from higher wages when the industry turns around.

I think a good example was Delta express. Were the pay rates for express low? Yep. Too low? Yep. Did the work rules suck? Yep. Did it stay like that forever? Nope. It took all of one contract for the Delta pilots to bring express pay right back up to the rest of the fleet. If they had given up those jobs, that opportunity was gone.

If only the mainline pilots had realized this when the RJ first appeared. Unfortunately, they weren't interested in anything with <70 seats, allowed them to be outsourced, and here we are.
 

Oakum_Boy

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T-Gates said:
I'm confused why an ASA pilot is so pissed about this AWA/USAir 90-seat deal....

I haven't seen any USAir/AWA affiliated regional guy come in and bitch about this. Why is it that some guys at ASA and Comair want everybody jumping on the RJDC bandwagon? It's like listening to an angry 12 year old who wants something he can't get.

How can you get mad at mainline pilots for trying to protect thier own jobs when you are just trying to to the same?

Hypocrisy anyone?


You're probably missing the point. That is, how can ALPA be negotiaing a new contract at ASA, and simultaneously grant USair the ability to fly larger airplanes, at a lower pay scale? A regional is what it is, but ALPA doesn't care when it comes down to it. They want to protect as many jobs (dues) as possible, and they'll sell out their membership to do so. Duane Worth just needs that income. Everybody else be damned.
 
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