Mainline USAir undercuts AGAIN!

[JoeMerchant]

It was bad enough when the USAir MEC undercut the regionals to capture the E170 aircraft, but now once again, they have done the same with the E190s. Why is it OK for mainline to do this, but not a regional? More ALPA hypocracy folks - time to wake up regional pilots. What is so magical about the title "mainline" if it pays the same or less than the "regional"?

Joe

 

[FurloughedAgain]

I'm sorry... which "regional" was it that flies the E190? and for what payrate?

As far as I know only one "regional" flies a 90 seat aircraft. Mesa.

If the US Airways payrates are less than Mesa's CR9 payrates then you may have a point.

If not, then you're just pissing into the wind.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I'm sorry... which "regional" was it that flies the E190? and for what payrate?

As far as I know only one "regional" flies a 90 seat aircraft. Mesa.

If the US Airways payrates are less than Mesa's CR9 payrates then you may have a point.

If not, then you're just pissing into the wind.

The Jetblue rates are less than Comair and Horizons 70 seat rate and less than CHQs 90 seat rate. They are very close to Mesa's 90 seat rates. Not pi$$ing in the wind, just tired of being pi$$ed on by my "brothers" while being told it is for my own good.

 

[4lowed]

Joe,

Here's what's great about the mainline. Sure you may start in a regional, but the largest piece of equipment is much bigger than your 50-70 seater, and the pay is much greater at their TOS than yours.

Now here's one that cuts both ways. At the regional you are mainlines little bi**h. In the race to the bottom mainline management can play the regional airlines off of each other to get to the lowest bidder. If your regional contract is unattractive, mainline can shop for a new partner. Obviously if you are sitting at mainline you hate to see your former job and routes go to the regional when times are bad.

I've worked at the regional level and at the mainline. I can tell you that things are better off at the mainline. At the mainline I didn't have to track my own pay and rest requirements. At mainline I don't have to do double duty to cover for my inexperienced dispatcher, or deal with an amateur like "Floyd" from scheduling. At the mainline the training, quality of instruction, and experience of the instructors was way better than at the regional.

I understand your bitterness towards ALPO. They do one thing really well, and that's the study and promotion of safety. Other than that it's the most expensive magazine subscription I've ever had.

Those are just a couple of my thoughts on why the mainline tops the regional hands down.

4lowed

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Jetblue is not a "regional". It may not be a major, but its sure as heck not a regional.

Are US Airways/AWA's rates less than Chautauqua's?

These airlines -- I dont care whether you call them "majors" "legacies" or whatever -- have lost over 7000 jobs in the last 4 years.

I applaud them for doing what it takes to ATTEMPT to gain some job security by hanging on to the flying that would otherwise replace the 737.

 

[4lowed]

Actually, JetBlue is a major.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Jetblue is not a "regional". It may not be a major, but its sure as heck not a regional.

Are US Airways/AWA's rates less than Chautauqua's?

These airlines -- I dont care whether you call them "majors" "legacies" or whatever -- have lost over 7000 jobs in the last 4 years.

I applaud them for doing what it takes to ATTEMPT to gain some job security by hanging on to the flying that would otherwise replace the 737.

Furloughed, the new USAir/AWA rates are reportedly about the same as Jetblue rates, that was my point. If that is the case, then yes, they did undercut CHQ's 90 seat rate.

I understand your frustration, HOWEVER job security runs both ways. This will be another wedge driven between mainline and regionals. If you advocate undercutting me for your job security, then I will advocate undercutting you for my job security. This is a very slippery slope.

Joe

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Actually, JetBlue is a major.

So is American Eagle

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe,

Here's what's great about the mainline. Sure you may start in a regional, but the largest piece of equipment is much bigger than your 50-70 seater, and the pay is much greater at their TOS than yours.
4lowed

Only because we don't have anything larger than 70 seaters. The payscales would be about the same now if we had larger aircraft. If the payscales are roughly the same, it is much more beneficial for me to fly larger aircraft here at the regional level than to go to the "mainline" only to take a paycut for the next 15 years. I see it from your side, but you have to understand the picture is totally different from the perspective of a senior regional pilot. It has become every man for themselves.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

I'm not undercutting YOU if i'm establishing payrates for an aircraft that YOU DO NOT FLY!!!

You ARE undercutting ME if you're establishing payrates for an aircraft that was designed to replace an aircraft that I currently fly.

But hey, I dont have a dog in this fight. I dont fly for the airlines anymore. I just can't believe that your vision is so clouded that you cant see the bigger E-Jets for what they are -- replacements.

Or, if you prefer - Guppy Killers

 

[Oakum_Boy]

I'm not undercutting YOU if i'm establishing payrates for an aircraft that YOU DO NOT FLY!!!

You ARE undercutting ME if you're establishing payrates for an aircraft that was designed to replace an aircraft that I currently fly.

But hey, I dont have a dog in this fight. I dont fly for the airlines anymore. I just can't believe that your vision is so clouded that you cant see the bigger E-Jets for what they are -- replacements.

Or, if you prefer - Guppy Killers

The brand name is nothing. The number of seats is everything. The Bombardier 50-seat jet was designed to replace turboprops. ALPA and mainline MEC's gave management permission to replace mainline jets with RJ's.

Now ALPA is "helping" the poor furloughed guys out, by agreeing to let them fly 100-seat jets for 60 bucks an hour. Just what are the Usair guys gonna come back to if ALPA keeps dropping the bar on larger and larger jets. Regional guys are not the enemy. Look to your thugged-out union leadership. Homey.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Preaching to the choir there my friend.

There is one bankruptcy/liquidation that I am anxiously awaiting.

ALPA.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I'm not undercutting YOU if i'm establishing payrates for an aircraft that YOU DO NOT FLY!!!

The USAirways pilots DO NOT FLY IT EITHER! They undercut the rates to capture this seat range. You can call it whatever you wish, but it is yet another example of the world revolving around the "mainline" pilot.

You ARE undercutting ME if you're establishing payrates for an aircraft that was designed to replace an aircraft that I currently fly.

But hey, I dont have a dog in this fight. I dont fly for the airlines anymore. I just can't believe that your vision is so clouded that you cant see the bigger E-Jets for what they are -- replacements.

Or, if you prefer - Guppy Killers

The USAirways MEC negotiated 70 seat rates at MDA that UNDERCUT the 70 seat rates at ASA, CMR, and MEC. Now the USAirways MEC has negotiated 90 seat rates that are less than CMRs and HZNs 70 seat rates. That is undercutting. Go ahead and call it what you want - I call it WAR! It's a free for all created by management with ALPA's blessing.

As far as being "replacements", every aircraft any regional flies is a "replacement". Remember, mainline used to fly DC3s, Martin404s, and Convair580s. Of course we are replacements. Maybe ALPA should have thought about that 20 years ago. Now it is simply one group looking out for itself at the expense of another group.

Joe

 

[JoeMerchant]

Preaching to the choir there my friend.

There is one bankruptcy/liquidation that I am anxiously awaiting.

ALPA.

Furloughed,
At least we agree on this. ALPA is self destructing. Time for the ALPA national leadership to join the unemployment ranks!

Joe

 

[Crzipilot]

Amazing. Hmmm......a mainline does what it needs for more airplanes and it's undercutting the regional. Remember these sized planes were mainline for years. Now I agree with your views on ALPA, but maybe this is the start of change of tides within. Someone woke up and said WTF are we doing here. (would like to think so, but prob. isn't true)
Anyways, the reality of the situation, is most of the regional feed is contracted. In any situation the contractor is usually held at the whim of the corporation. Though in most situations I've seen, Such as banking, gov't, etc etc, when a contractor is brought in, it's usually at a MUCH HIGHER pay rate than doing it in house. Here, it's quite the opposite, at least on the pilot pay scales. Though I wonder, If the same contract was operated under the mainline flag, would it cost less to operate than the fee for departure contracts that are rampent. If it was less, then I would presume, there's only one point of savings going on, and that's the pay scales.

 

[Crzipilot]

OH BTW, have you seen the payscales yet??? If so please post them, I haven't seen them, so how do u know mainline "undercut" the regionals. If your tired of being undercut, why don't you go and apply somewhere it won't happen? Don't want to take the paycut is the theme I generally hear, well most of us that made the jump, took the paycut to do such. Either guys as they came up through the ranks prepared, knowing what it took, or just did what it took. I left a job paying 6 figures, to start over at a major.....as many others did too. Why did they do this??? Why didn't you?

 

[michael707767]

here is the deal from USA/AWA point of view. Better to keep those jobs now, even at a lower rate, than to allow them to be outsourced. Down the road when the airlines inevitably start to make money, you can start working to bring up those rates. If you let those jets be outsourced, you have lost that opportunity. Then someone else gets the chance to benifit from higher wages when the industry turns around.

I think a good example was Delta express. Were the pay rates for express low? Yep. Too low? Yep. Did the work rules suck? Yep. Did it stay like that forever? Nope. It took all of one contract for the Delta pilots to bring express pay right back up to the rest of the fleet. If they had given up those jobs, that opportunity was gone.

 

[FlyinPiker]

here is the deal from USA/AWA point of view. Better to keep those jobs now, even at a lower rate, than to allow them to be outsourced. Down the road when the airlines inevitably start to make money, you can start working to bring up those rates. If you let those jets be outsourced, you have lost that opportunity. Then someone else gets the chance to benifit from higher wages when the industry turns around.

I think a good example was Delta express. Were the pay rates for express low? Yep. Too low? Yep. Did the work rules suck? Yep. Did it stay like that forever? Nope. It took all of one contract for the Delta pilots to bring express pay right back up to the rest of the fleet. If they had given up those jobs, that opportunity was gone.

BRAVO!!!!!! I'm with you 707767 You you guys can talk all the smack you want. Mainline made a mistake when they stared relaxing scope. Now they are trying to reverse the trend. Is there any other way to do that than trying to beat the regionals at there own game? Was Mgmt just going to say....well I guess you've had enough. We'll start giving you airplanes again? Keep talking smack and somehow keep justifying the fact that CAL pays a first year 777 f/o ( yes they have them) $30/hr and a UPS A300 F/O $29/hr.

They are getting the airplane on the property.....hopefully DAL/NWA/CAL can do the same. Good Jobs guys. Flame away...........

Piker

 

[shamrock]

Better to keep those jobs now, even at a lower rate, than to allow them to be outsourced. Down the road when the airlines inevitably start to make money, you can start working to bring up those rates. If you let those jets be outsourced, you have lost that opportunity. Then someone else gets the chance to benifit from higher wages when the industry turns around.

I think a good example was Delta express. Were the pay rates for express low? Yep. Too low? Yep. Did the work rules suck? Yep. Did it stay like that forever? Nope. It took all of one contract for the Delta pilots to bring express pay right back up to the rest of the fleet. If they had given up those jobs, that opportunity was gone.

If only the mainline pilots had realized this when the RJ first appeared. Unfortunately, they weren't interested in anything with <70 seats, allowed them to be outsourced, and here we are.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

I'm confused why an ASA pilot is so pissed about this AWA/USAir 90-seat deal....

I haven't seen any USAir/AWA affiliated regional guy come in and bitch about this. Why is it that some guys at ASA and Comair want everybody jumping on the RJDC bandwagon? It's like listening to an angry 12 year old who wants something he can't get.

How can you get mad at mainline pilots for trying to protect thier own jobs when you are just trying to to the same?

Hypocrisy anyone?

You're probably missing the point. That is, how can ALPA be negotiaing a new contract at ASA, and simultaneously grant USair the ability to fly larger airplanes, at a lower pay scale? A regional is what it is, but ALPA doesn't care when it comes down to it. They want to protect as many jobs (dues) as possible, and they'll sell out their membership to do so. Duane Worth just needs that income. Everybody else be damned.

 

[Crzipilot]

Actually Joe, the mainlines did or do fly aircraft this size. They even have the payscales in their contract. What's the seat capacity of a 146 or f28??? IF they already have the payscales in the contract, that's what they are supposed to be flown under. BUT when management comes up and says....well we know the scales are there, but these guys at (insert regional here) will fly it for X amount, we need some relief on the scales if u want to keep this flying. So where is the undercutting?

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

An undercutter complaining about being undercut!!!

It was bad enough when the USAir MEC undercut the regionals to capture the E170 aircraft, but now once again, they have done the same with the E190s. Why is it OK for mainline to do this, but not a regional? More ALPA hypocracy folks - time to wake up regional pilots. What is so magical about the title "mainline" if it pays the same or less than the "regional"?

Joe

The regionals have been replacing the flying of mainlaine for years and thousands have been furloughed because of the lower rates that the regionals will except. You my friend have set the standard and are finally feeling the pinch that many, like myself, have already felt.

The regional argument used to be be:

It's not me, I am only flying what the company tells me.

I don't make the payrates, I wish they paid me more (to fly your routes with smaller planes, but big for a regional jet).

And then the ego about it's not an RJ ( because it is so big and shinny - SJS).

I feel your pain, but am not responsible for it. Thanks for your support so many years ago.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Preach on brother

I'm not undercutting YOU if i'm establishing payrates for an aircraft that YOU DO NOT FLY!!!

You ARE undercutting ME if you're establishing payrates for an aircraft that was designed to replace an aircraft that I currently fly.

But hey, I dont have a dog in this fight. I dont fly for the airlines anymore. I just can't believe that your vision is so clouded that you cant see the bigger E-Jets for what they are -- replacements.

Or, if you prefer - Guppy Killers

That about sums it up!

 

[Chicken Taco]

I'll show you mine if you show me yours!!

OK, here are the CHQ rates, which are the only ones negotiated with the E190 in mind rather than the BAe or anything else. So let's see the new U rates and JBLU..

Captain Pay Rates 79-99 Seat Jet
Year Oct 1, 2003 Oct 1, 2004 Oct 1, 2005 Oct 1, 2006 Oct 1, 2007
1 $ 58.91 $ 60.38 $ 61.89 $ 63.12 $ 64.39
2 $ 62.37 $ 63.93 $ 65.53 $ 66.84 $ 68.17
3 $ 66.61 $ 68.27 $ 69.98 $ 71.38 $ 72.80
4 $ 68.68 $ 70.40 $ 72.16 $ 73.60 $ 75.07
5 $ 70.79 $ 72.56 $ 74.37 $ 75.86 $ 77.38
6 $ 72.99 $ 74.51 $ 76.69 $ 78.22 $ 79.78
7 $ 75.24 $ 77.12 $ 79.05 $ 80.63 $ 82.24
8 $ 77.57 $ 79.51 $ 81.50 $ 83.13 $ 84.79
9 $ 79.96 $ 81.96 $ 84.01 $ 85.69 $ 87.40
10 $ 82.46 $ 84.52 $ 86.63 $ 88.37 $ 90.13
11 $ 84.99 $ 87.11 $ 89.29 $ 91.08 $ 92.90
12 $ 88.01 $ 90.21 $ 92.47 $ 94.31 $ 96.20
13 $ 90.33 $ 92.59 $ 94.90 $ 96.80 $ 98.74
14 $ 93.13 $ 95.46 $ 97.84 $ 99.80 $ 101.80
15 $ 96.01 $ 98.41 $ 100.87 $ 102.89 $ 104.95
16 $ 98.89 $ 101.36 $ 103.90 $ 105.97 $ 108.09
17 $ 103.90 $ 106.49 $ 108.62 $ 110.79
18 $ 109.15 $ 111.34 $ 113.56
19 $ 114.12 $ 116.41
20 $ 119.32

 

[Oakum_Boy]

The regionals have been replacing the flying of mainlaine for years and thousands have been furloughed because of the lower rates that the regionals will except. You my friend have set the standard and are finally feeling the pinch that many, like myself, have already felt.

The regional argument used to be be:

It's not me, I am only flying what the company tells me.

I don't make the payrates, I wish they paid me more (to fly your routes with smaller planes, but big for a regional jet).

And then the ego about it's not an RJ ( because it is so big and shinny - SJS).

I feel your pain, but am not responsible for it. Thanks for your support so many years ago.

Obviously not a scholarly argument. You think I, as an RJ pilot am responsible for lower pay? We've been trying to raise it every four years. It's all we can do to get a better contract. You don't see pilots asking for lower wages so we can undermine your way of life, do you.

You may thank management, ALPA, your MEC, and YOUR VOTE on the scope clause that allowed the flying to be outsourced in the first place. Nice try, Aristotle.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

After I was furloughed from USAir I flew as a regional F/O for a while. On one trip I flew with a Captain who had paid for his training.

We got to talking about the subject and he told me that he HAD to pay for his training. I reminded him that there were MANY companies in the mid-90s that had no such requirement. Piedmont, Allegheny, American Eagle...

He told me that it was MY fault that he paid for his training because when I was a mainline pilot I didn't direct ALPA to make ending PFT a priority. His checkbook is $10,000 lighter and I still dont understand his argument. A fool and his money...

This CRJ Captain was incapable of taking ownership of his career decisions.

Now we have an airplane with 100 seats. It effectively replaces the Boeing 737, the DC9, the F100 and has the potential in larger varients to replace the A319/320.

You're telling me that you once again have no choice. That it is the mainline pilots who are FORCING you down this road. Why? Are you losing jobs? Are you furloughing? Is someone taking flying that was traditionally yours?

You're wrong. You do have a choice. You have the choice to find the payrates for 100-120 seat equipment at Northwest, Southwest, Delta etc... and tell your management that you refuse to fly that airplane for less than their current book rates.

At least then when you go taxiing by in your shiny new 737 replacement you can do so with a little self respect.

 

[michael707767]

OK, here are the CHQ rates, which are the only ones negotiated with the E190 in mind rather than the BAe or anything else. So let's see the new U rates and JBLU..

I think the top JetBlue rate for the 190 is right at 90 an hour. Someone correct me if I am wrong. Keep in mind though that at JetBlue everything flown above 70 hours is time and a half. So, with most JetBlue guys flying about 85 hours a month, the effective pay rate for their 190 is closer to 97-98 an hour. Not saying that is great, but keep that in mind.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

You do have a choice. You have the choice to find the payrates for 100-120 seat equipment at Northwest, Southwest, Delta etc... and tell your management that you refuse to fly that airplane for less than their current book rates.

That souldn't be too hard. Seeing as how I fly a 70 seat airplane for more than the UsAir 100-seat rate on an agreement 3+ years old.

I'm just super glad that ALPA has made it that much harder for my MEC to negotiate a fair pay rate for my diminiutive CRJ. Thanks ALPA, and I'm glad we got some mainline flying back, albeit at impoverished commuter pay. Way to go.

 

[Swaayze]

He told me that it was MY fault that he paid for his training because when I was a mainline pilot I didn't direct ALPA to make ending PFT a priority. His checkbook is $10,000 lighter and I still dont understand his argument. A fool and his money...

This CRJ Captain was incapable of taking ownership of his career decisions.

Bravo!

I'm so sick of the blame game that's rampant in America now. It's always someone else's fault. Boo fricking hoo.

I thank God that we finally have a President who's willing to say "I take responsibility" regardless of the magnitude of his actual involvement in the situation. Maybe that's a baby step towards setting a good example and finally recapturing some personal responsibility in America.

Off soapbox....

 

[NEDude]

The USAirways pilots DO NOT FLY IT EITHER! They undercut the rates to capture this seat range. You can call it whatever you wish, but it is yet another example of the world revolving around the "mainline" pilot.

Considering mainline used to fly the 65-85 seat F-28, it seems to me they are trying to reclaim the seat range captured by the regionals.