Mainline USAir undercuts AGAIN!

[Crzipilot]

Actually Joe, the mainlines did or do fly aircraft this size. They even have the payscales in their contract. What's the seat capacity of a 146 or f28??? IF they already have the payscales in the contract, that's what they are supposed to be flown under. BUT when management comes up and says....well we know the scales are there, but these guys at (insert regional here) will fly it for X amount, we need some relief on the scales if u want to keep this flying. So where is the undercutting?

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

An undercutter complaining about being undercut!!!

It was bad enough when the USAir MEC undercut the regionals to capture the E170 aircraft, but now once again, they have done the same with the E190s. Why is it OK for mainline to do this, but not a regional? More ALPA hypocracy folks - time to wake up regional pilots. What is so magical about the title "mainline" if it pays the same or less than the "regional"?

Joe

The regionals have been replacing the flying of mainlaine for years and thousands have been furloughed because of the lower rates that the regionals will except. You my friend have set the standard and are finally feeling the pinch that many, like myself, have already felt.

The regional argument used to be be:

It's not me, I am only flying what the company tells me.

I don't make the payrates, I wish they paid me more (to fly your routes with smaller planes, but big for a regional jet).

And then the ego about it's not an RJ ( because it is so big and shinny - SJS).

I feel your pain, but am not responsible for it. Thanks for your support so many years ago.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Preach on brother

I'm not undercutting YOU if i'm establishing payrates for an aircraft that YOU DO NOT FLY!!!

You ARE undercutting ME if you're establishing payrates for an aircraft that was designed to replace an aircraft that I currently fly.

But hey, I dont have a dog in this fight. I dont fly for the airlines anymore. I just can't believe that your vision is so clouded that you cant see the bigger E-Jets for what they are -- replacements.

Or, if you prefer - Guppy Killers

That about sums it up!

 

[Chicken Taco]

I'll show you mine if you show me yours!!

OK, here are the CHQ rates, which are the only ones negotiated with the E190 in mind rather than the BAe or anything else. So let's see the new U rates and JBLU..

Captain Pay Rates 79-99 Seat Jet
Year Oct 1, 2003 Oct 1, 2004 Oct 1, 2005 Oct 1, 2006 Oct 1, 2007
1 $ 58.91 $ 60.38 $ 61.89 $ 63.12 $ 64.39
2 $ 62.37 $ 63.93 $ 65.53 $ 66.84 $ 68.17
3 $ 66.61 $ 68.27 $ 69.98 $ 71.38 $ 72.80
4 $ 68.68 $ 70.40 $ 72.16 $ 73.60 $ 75.07
5 $ 70.79 $ 72.56 $ 74.37 $ 75.86 $ 77.38
6 $ 72.99 $ 74.51 $ 76.69 $ 78.22 $ 79.78
7 $ 75.24 $ 77.12 $ 79.05 $ 80.63 $ 82.24
8 $ 77.57 $ 79.51 $ 81.50 $ 83.13 $ 84.79
9 $ 79.96 $ 81.96 $ 84.01 $ 85.69 $ 87.40
10 $ 82.46 $ 84.52 $ 86.63 $ 88.37 $ 90.13
11 $ 84.99 $ 87.11 $ 89.29 $ 91.08 $ 92.90
12 $ 88.01 $ 90.21 $ 92.47 $ 94.31 $ 96.20
13 $ 90.33 $ 92.59 $ 94.90 $ 96.80 $ 98.74
14 $ 93.13 $ 95.46 $ 97.84 $ 99.80 $ 101.80
15 $ 96.01 $ 98.41 $ 100.87 $ 102.89 $ 104.95
16 $ 98.89 $ 101.36 $ 103.90 $ 105.97 $ 108.09
17 $ 103.90 $ 106.49 $ 108.62 $ 110.79
18 $ 109.15 $ 111.34 $ 113.56
19 $ 114.12 $ 116.41
20 $ 119.32

 

[Oakum_Boy]

The regionals have been replacing the flying of mainlaine for years and thousands have been furloughed because of the lower rates that the regionals will except. You my friend have set the standard and are finally feeling the pinch that many, like myself, have already felt.

The regional argument used to be be:

It's not me, I am only flying what the company tells me.

I don't make the payrates, I wish they paid me more (to fly your routes with smaller planes, but big for a regional jet).

And then the ego about it's not an RJ ( because it is so big and shinny - SJS).

I feel your pain, but am not responsible for it. Thanks for your support so many years ago.

Obviously not a scholarly argument. You think I, as an RJ pilot am responsible for lower pay? We've been trying to raise it every four years. It's all we can do to get a better contract. You don't see pilots asking for lower wages so we can undermine your way of life, do you.

You may thank management, ALPA, your MEC, and YOUR VOTE on the scope clause that allowed the flying to be outsourced in the first place. Nice try, Aristotle.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

After I was furloughed from USAir I flew as a regional F/O for a while. On one trip I flew with a Captain who had paid for his training.

We got to talking about the subject and he told me that he HAD to pay for his training. I reminded him that there were MANY companies in the mid-90s that had no such requirement. Piedmont, Allegheny, American Eagle...

He told me that it was MY fault that he paid for his training because when I was a mainline pilot I didn't direct ALPA to make ending PFT a priority. His checkbook is $10,000 lighter and I still dont understand his argument. A fool and his money...

This CRJ Captain was incapable of taking ownership of his career decisions.

Now we have an airplane with 100 seats. It effectively replaces the Boeing 737, the DC9, the F100 and has the potential in larger varients to replace the A319/320.

You're telling me that you once again have no choice. That it is the mainline pilots who are FORCING you down this road. Why? Are you losing jobs? Are you furloughing? Is someone taking flying that was traditionally yours?

You're wrong. You do have a choice. You have the choice to find the payrates for 100-120 seat equipment at Northwest, Southwest, Delta etc... and tell your management that you refuse to fly that airplane for less than their current book rates.

At least then when you go taxiing by in your shiny new 737 replacement you can do so with a little self respect.

 

[michael707767]

OK, here are the CHQ rates, which are the only ones negotiated with the E190 in mind rather than the BAe or anything else. So let's see the new U rates and JBLU..

I think the top JetBlue rate for the 190 is right at 90 an hour. Someone correct me if I am wrong. Keep in mind though that at JetBlue everything flown above 70 hours is time and a half. So, with most JetBlue guys flying about 85 hours a month, the effective pay rate for their 190 is closer to 97-98 an hour. Not saying that is great, but keep that in mind.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

You do have a choice. You have the choice to find the payrates for 100-120 seat equipment at Northwest, Southwest, Delta etc... and tell your management that you refuse to fly that airplane for less than their current book rates.

That souldn't be too hard. Seeing as how I fly a 70 seat airplane for more than the UsAir 100-seat rate on an agreement 3+ years old.

I'm just super glad that ALPA has made it that much harder for my MEC to negotiate a fair pay rate for my diminiutive CRJ. Thanks ALPA, and I'm glad we got some mainline flying back, albeit at impoverished commuter pay. Way to go.

 

[Swaayze]

He told me that it was MY fault that he paid for his training because when I was a mainline pilot I didn't direct ALPA to make ending PFT a priority. His checkbook is $10,000 lighter and I still dont understand his argument. A fool and his money...

This CRJ Captain was incapable of taking ownership of his career decisions.

Bravo!

I'm so sick of the blame game that's rampant in America now. It's always someone else's fault. Boo fricking hoo.

I thank God that we finally have a President who's willing to say "I take responsibility" regardless of the magnitude of his actual involvement in the situation. Maybe that's a baby step towards setting a good example and finally recapturing some personal responsibility in America.

Off soapbox....

 

[NEDude]

The USAirways pilots DO NOT FLY IT EITHER! They undercut the rates to capture this seat range. You can call it whatever you wish, but it is yet another example of the world revolving around the "mainline" pilot.

Considering mainline used to fly the 65-85 seat F-28, it seems to me they are trying to reclaim the seat range captured by the regionals.

 

[FDJ2]

You may thank management, ALPA, your MEC, and YOUR VOTE on the scope clause that allowed the flying to be outsourced in the first place. Nice try, Aristotle.

Oakum_boy, it would have required a change in the AWA PWA to allow outsourcing of the E-190s to low bidders, what AWA did was keep their scope clause intact, something you should support. If all the other ALPA MECs follow suit, the E190 should make a nice mainline jet.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

We are making the same point...

Obviously not a scholarly argument. You think I, as an RJ pilot am responsible for lower pay? We've been trying to raise it every four years. It's all we can do to get a better contract. You don't see pilots asking for lower wages so we can undermine your way of life, do you.

You may thank management, ALPA, your MEC, and YOUR VOTE on the scope clause that allowed the flying to be outsourced in the first place. Nice try, Aristotle.

...The original poster is blaming mainline USAair and others for his low pay. My point is mainline was undercut years ago by contract carriers and now there is competition for the 100-seat market. His complaint is mainline is hurting his career. That's a crock! We all hurt each other at one point or another with rules that were etched out before your or I began to fly. We are dealing with the aftermath. It usually is the argument of who owns the flying between mainline and the regionals that feed mainline.

To blame national carriers for low rates that don't have a feeder liner is a bad argument. Take JB for example. Yes, the E190 rates are low to start, but as B6GUY pointed out, they have a history of going up. They are their own carrier with no issues between mainline and the regional. The JB pilots will make more and have a better career than a regional pilot that blames his/her own working conditions on another unrelated carrier's pay rates.

I am sorry if you weren't able to take my six-figure mainline job to pay off your ERAU student loans. Maybe you could ask Kit Darby for a little help.

Fight your own fight, take responsibility for your own actions, make it better for yourself and others and stop blaming everyone else for the pay and QOL at your own airline. Is that clear or scholarly enough? I won't use the spell check so flame away if it make you feel better!!!

Fly safe and let's just all get along.

 

[FDJ2]

OK, here are the CHQ rates, which are the only ones negotiated with the E190 in mind rather than the BAe or anything else. So let's see the new U rates and JBLU..

Captain Pay Rates 79-99 Seat Jet
Year Oct 1, 2003 Oct 1, 2004 Oct 1, 2005 Oct 1, 2006 Oct 1, 2007
1 $ 58.91 $ 60.38 $ 61.89 $ 63.12 $ 64.39
2 $ 62.37 $ 63.93 $ 65.53 $ 66.84 $ 68.17
3 $ 66.61 $ 68.27 $ 69.98 $ 71.38 $ 72.80
4 $ 68.68 $ 70.40 $ 72.16 $ 73.60 $ 75.07
5 $ 70.79 $ 72.56 $ 74.37 $ 75.86 $ 77.38
6 $ 72.99 $ 74.51 $ 76.69 $ 78.22 $ 79.78
7 $ 75.24 $ 77.12 $ 79.05 $ 80.63 $ 82.24
8 $ 77.57 $ 79.51 $ 81.50 $ 83.13 $ 84.79
9 $ 79.96 $ 81.96 $ 84.01 $ 85.69 $ 87.40
10 $ 82.46 $ 84.52 $ 86.63 $ 88.37 $ 90.13
11 $ 84.99 $ 87.11 $ 89.29 $ 91.08 $ 92.90
12 $ 88.01 $ 90.21 $ 92.47 $ 94.31 $ 96.20
13 $ 90.33 $ 92.59 $ 94.90 $ 96.80 $ 98.74
14 $ 93.13 $ 95.46 $ 97.84 $ 99.80 $ 101.80
15 $ 96.01 $ 98.41 $ 100.87 $ 102.89 $ 104.95
16 $ 98.89 $ 101.36 $ 103.90 $ 105.97 $ 108.09
17 $ 103.90 $ 106.49 $ 108.62 $ 110.79
18 $ 109.15 $ 111.34 $ 113.56
19 $ 114.12 $ 116.41
20 $ 119.32

JBLU CA/FO rates year 1-12 on E190

1. 71/37
2. 72/40
3. 74/42
4. 76/44
5. 77/46
6. 79/47
7. 80/48
8. 82/49
9. 84/50
10.85/51
11.87/52
12.89/53

Midatlantic CA rates on the Ejets range from $60-$93 for years 1-18

F/O rates start at $21 and go up to $37 by the 7th year with no additional raises after that.

I'm not sure what the AWA rates will be.

www.airlinepilotcentral.com

 

[gcsass]

Hey Joe.....

If this thread is based on the E-190 at AWA/Airways thread from the majors board, then it is from the AWA pilot MEC. It also says that the proposed pay scale is going out for a vote.....we'll se if it gets approved.....

 

[Taco Rocket]

I've talked with MidAtlantic guys, and I make more on the Taco Rocket at Mesa than they make on the E170.

It's just a fact....not trying to start a bar brawl here or anything.

So if you tell me they have undercut the E190 I believe it as well. A sad sad day in this industry when we make more than you guys....

 

[michael707767]

I've talked with MidAtlantic guys, and I make more on the Taco Rocket at Mesa than they make on the E170.

So if you tell me they have undercut the E190 I believe it as well. A sad sad day in this industry when we make more than you guys....

so what? A SW 737 captain makes more than a UAL 747 captain. These are not good times folks. Pilot groups are doing the best they can, and in BK thats not too good. If you guys at the regionals think this pain is not going to trickle down to you, you are kidding yourselves.

 

[LearLove]

It was bad enough when the USAir MEC undercut the regionals.......

Joe

I stopped reading about here.

mainline undercutting the regionals.....

Hello pot, meet Mr. Kettle, did you call him black?

 

[Hugh Johnson]

"So is American Eagle"

When I flew out of JFK, I made it a point to call all AA aircraft "Company" to ATC. I used to call the F100 a "regional jet." I almost miss those days.

 

[Crzipilot]

Ok, Rounded numbers. 146 and the f28 payscales from a mainline carrier. 146 rates were effective '96 and the f28 was '98 i think.


146:
capt f/o

1 113.85 50.77
2 114.94 72.53
3 116.04 74.38
4 117.08 76.34
5 118.13 78.56
....
12 124.52 85.05



F28
Capt FO

2 95.92 47.96
3 96.78 52.26
4 97.69 61.64
5 98.60 63.20
6 99.47 64.85
.....
12 102.19 72.19


anyways, those were the rates when mainline flew those aircraft. In fact at one point alpa offered to fly the rj's at those f28 rates....mgmnt said hell no. Also remember besides the pay number you have some inherent earning increases in the contracts themselves, along with benefits, though most of the benefits are gone. So even though there are payscales for the seat range Management knew they could have it done cheaper at a regional even with a 10-15% profit built in for the fee for departure schedule.

 

[Crzipilot]

I've talked with MidAtlantic guys, and I make more on the Taco Rocket at Mesa than they make on the E170.

It's just a fact....not trying to start a bar brawl here or anything.

So if you tell me they have undercut the E190 I believe it as well. A sad sad day in this industry when we make more than you guys....

You may want to check those pay rates again there taco man. As you may make more due to the fact that the MDA guys all had to start at 1st yr capt rates, and f/o's were able to start at max longevity.