Mainline USAir undercuts AGAIN!

[FDJ2]

You may thank management, ALPA, your MEC, and YOUR VOTE on the scope clause that allowed the flying to be outsourced in the first place. Nice try, Aristotle.

Oakum_boy, it would have required a change in the AWA PWA to allow outsourcing of the E-190s to low bidders, what AWA did was keep their scope clause intact, something you should support. If all the other ALPA MECs follow suit, the E190 should make a nice mainline jet.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

We are making the same point...

Obviously not a scholarly argument. You think I, as an RJ pilot am responsible for lower pay? We've been trying to raise it every four years. It's all we can do to get a better contract. You don't see pilots asking for lower wages so we can undermine your way of life, do you.

You may thank management, ALPA, your MEC, and YOUR VOTE on the scope clause that allowed the flying to be outsourced in the first place. Nice try, Aristotle.

...The original poster is blaming mainline USAair and others for his low pay. My point is mainline was undercut years ago by contract carriers and now there is competition for the 100-seat market. His complaint is mainline is hurting his career. That's a crock! We all hurt each other at one point or another with rules that were etched out before your or I began to fly. We are dealing with the aftermath. It usually is the argument of who owns the flying between mainline and the regionals that feed mainline.

To blame national carriers for low rates that don't have a feeder liner is a bad argument. Take JB for example. Yes, the E190 rates are low to start, but as B6GUY pointed out, they have a history of going up. They are their own carrier with no issues between mainline and the regional. The JB pilots will make more and have a better career than a regional pilot that blames his/her own working conditions on another unrelated carrier's pay rates.

I am sorry if you weren't able to take my six-figure mainline job to pay off your ERAU student loans. Maybe you could ask Kit Darby for a little help.

Fight your own fight, take responsibility for your own actions, make it better for yourself and others and stop blaming everyone else for the pay and QOL at your own airline. Is that clear or scholarly enough? I won't use the spell check so flame away if it make you feel better!!!

Fly safe and let's just all get along.

 

[FDJ2]

OK, here are the CHQ rates, which are the only ones negotiated with the E190 in mind rather than the BAe or anything else. So let's see the new U rates and JBLU..

Captain Pay Rates 79-99 Seat Jet
Year Oct 1, 2003 Oct 1, 2004 Oct 1, 2005 Oct 1, 2006 Oct 1, 2007
1 $ 58.91 $ 60.38 $ 61.89 $ 63.12 $ 64.39
2 $ 62.37 $ 63.93 $ 65.53 $ 66.84 $ 68.17
3 $ 66.61 $ 68.27 $ 69.98 $ 71.38 $ 72.80
4 $ 68.68 $ 70.40 $ 72.16 $ 73.60 $ 75.07
5 $ 70.79 $ 72.56 $ 74.37 $ 75.86 $ 77.38
6 $ 72.99 $ 74.51 $ 76.69 $ 78.22 $ 79.78
7 $ 75.24 $ 77.12 $ 79.05 $ 80.63 $ 82.24
8 $ 77.57 $ 79.51 $ 81.50 $ 83.13 $ 84.79
9 $ 79.96 $ 81.96 $ 84.01 $ 85.69 $ 87.40
10 $ 82.46 $ 84.52 $ 86.63 $ 88.37 $ 90.13
11 $ 84.99 $ 87.11 $ 89.29 $ 91.08 $ 92.90
12 $ 88.01 $ 90.21 $ 92.47 $ 94.31 $ 96.20
13 $ 90.33 $ 92.59 $ 94.90 $ 96.80 $ 98.74
14 $ 93.13 $ 95.46 $ 97.84 $ 99.80 $ 101.80
15 $ 96.01 $ 98.41 $ 100.87 $ 102.89 $ 104.95
16 $ 98.89 $ 101.36 $ 103.90 $ 105.97 $ 108.09
17 $ 103.90 $ 106.49 $ 108.62 $ 110.79
18 $ 109.15 $ 111.34 $ 113.56
19 $ 114.12 $ 116.41
20 $ 119.32

JBLU CA/FO rates year 1-12 on E190

1. 71/37
2. 72/40
3. 74/42
4. 76/44
5. 77/46
6. 79/47
7. 80/48
8. 82/49
9. 84/50
10.85/51
11.87/52
12.89/53

Midatlantic CA rates on the Ejets range from $60-$93 for years 1-18

F/O rates start at $21 and go up to $37 by the 7th year with no additional raises after that.

I'm not sure what the AWA rates will be.

www.airlinepilotcentral.com

 

[gcsass]

Hey Joe.....

If this thread is based on the E-190 at AWA/Airways thread from the majors board, then it is from the AWA pilot MEC. It also says that the proposed pay scale is going out for a vote.....we'll se if it gets approved.....

 

[Taco Rocket]

I've talked with MidAtlantic guys, and I make more on the Taco Rocket at Mesa than they make on the E170.

It's just a fact....not trying to start a bar brawl here or anything.

So if you tell me they have undercut the E190 I believe it as well. A sad sad day in this industry when we make more than you guys....

 

[michael707767]

I've talked with MidAtlantic guys, and I make more on the Taco Rocket at Mesa than they make on the E170.

So if you tell me they have undercut the E190 I believe it as well. A sad sad day in this industry when we make more than you guys....

so what? A SW 737 captain makes more than a UAL 747 captain. These are not good times folks. Pilot groups are doing the best they can, and in BK thats not too good. If you guys at the regionals think this pain is not going to trickle down to you, you are kidding yourselves.

 

[LearLove]

It was bad enough when the USAir MEC undercut the regionals.......

Joe

I stopped reading about here.

mainline undercutting the regionals.....

Hello pot, meet Mr. Kettle, did you call him black?

 

[Hugh Johnson]

"So is American Eagle"

When I flew out of JFK, I made it a point to call all AA aircraft "Company" to ATC. I used to call the F100 a "regional jet." I almost miss those days.

 

[Crzipilot]

Ok, Rounded numbers. 146 and the f28 payscales from a mainline carrier. 146 rates were effective '96 and the f28 was '98 i think.


146:
capt f/o

1 113.85 50.77
2 114.94 72.53
3 116.04 74.38
4 117.08 76.34
5 118.13 78.56
....
12 124.52 85.05



F28
Capt FO

2 95.92 47.96
3 96.78 52.26
4 97.69 61.64
5 98.60 63.20
6 99.47 64.85
.....
12 102.19 72.19


anyways, those were the rates when mainline flew those aircraft. In fact at one point alpa offered to fly the rj's at those f28 rates....mgmnt said hell no. Also remember besides the pay number you have some inherent earning increases in the contracts themselves, along with benefits, though most of the benefits are gone. So even though there are payscales for the seat range Management knew they could have it done cheaper at a regional even with a 10-15% profit built in for the fee for departure schedule.

 

[Crzipilot]

I've talked with MidAtlantic guys, and I make more on the Taco Rocket at Mesa than they make on the E170.

It's just a fact....not trying to start a bar brawl here or anything.

So if you tell me they have undercut the E190 I believe it as well. A sad sad day in this industry when we make more than you guys....

You may want to check those pay rates again there taco man. As you may make more due to the fact that the MDA guys all had to start at 1st yr capt rates, and f/o's were able to start at max longevity.

 

[Crzipilot]

Just as a little update. I've heard that 10 yr capt rate for the 190 at mainline is going to pay 95.00. Not the best BUT I believe higher than anyone else is paying out there for similar, about 10-20.00 more an hour. So if this what it turns out to be, I'd like to hear from the RJDC guys, how this is undercutting you???? It's not as good as the original 146/f28 rates, BUT with the downward pressure on hourly wages, one would expect as much.

 

[anewunion]

Please, Let Mainline Pilots Fly There Own Aircraft! Let's Bring The Mainline Guys Off The Street, Stop Contracting The Work Out,and Make Some Money.

 

[Crzipilot]

If your not reading the major boards, here's the negotiated pay scale, still to be voted on. Now let me hear about "undercutting" ?


I couldn't get the formatting right, but the numbers should be justified to the right......


US EMB 190 Captain Rates
2006 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015
1 78.57 78.57 78.57 78.57 80.14 80.14 81.74 81.74
2 80.36 80.36 80.36 80.36 81.96 81.96 83.60 83.60
3 82.14 82.14 82.14 82.14 83.79 83.79 85.46 85.46
4 83.96 83.96 83.96 83.96 85.63 85.63 87.35 87.35
5 85.82 85.82 85.82 85.82 87.54 87.54 89.29 89.29
6 87.53 87.53 87.53 87.53 89.28 89.28 91.07 91.07
7 89.29 89.29 89.29 89.29 91.07 91.07 92.90 92.90
8 91.07 91.07 91.07 91.07 92.89 92.89 94.75 94.75
9 92.89 92.89 92.89 92.89 94.75 94.75 96.64 96.64
10 94.74 94.74 94.74 94.74 96.64 96.64 98.57 98.57
11 96.64 96.64 96.64 98.58 98.58 100.55 100.55
12 98.58 98.58 100.55 100.55 102.56 102.56


US EMB 190 First Officer Rates

2006 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015
1 41.22 41.22 41.22 41.22 42.05 42.05 42.89 42.89
2 43.72 43.72 43.72 43.72 44.60 44.60 45.49 45.49
3 46.22 46.22 46.22 46.22 47.15 47.15 48.09 48.09
4 48.72 48.72 48.72 48.72 49.70 49.70 50.69 50.69
5 51.13 51.13 51.13 51.13 52.16 52.16 53.20 53.20
6 52.16 52.16 52.16 52.16 53.20 53.20 54.26 54.26
7 53.20 53.20 53.20 54.26 54.26 55.35 55.35
8 54.26 54.26 55.34 55.34 56.45 56.45
9 55.34 56.45 56.45 57.58 57.58
10 57.58 57.58 58.74 58.74
11 58.73 59.90 59.90
12 61.11 61.11

 

[DiverDriver]

If your not reading the major boards, here's the negotiated pay scale, still to be voted on. Now let me hear about "undercutting" ?

Well, I don't know about undercutting but Air Wisconsin BAE 146 top rate is $111.00. How do you define "undercut"? $99/hr is 89% of AWACs rate. I'd say that's not just a little lower that's a lot lower. But again, what is "undercutting"? They are trying to make a move to save mainline flying with the hopes of getting a higher scale later it seems.

AWAC Management just asked us to negotiate an E-190 rate. We pretty much handed them the 146 rate. Sad to see US Air propose a lower rate than current book on like aircraft (seatwise) instead of just proposing the same rate. I wonder why they thought they had to go so low.

 

[Crzipilot]

Diver Driver,

Uhmmm...you can't really compare year 18 rate with year 12 rate. Compare the same years and this pay scale is about 10.00 more an hour than Air Wisconsin. Thanks, but play again.

 

[surplus1]

If your not reading the major boards, here's the negotiated pay scale, still to be voted on. Now let me hear about "undercutting" ?


I couldn't get the formatting right, but the numbers should be justified to the right......


US EMB 190 Captain Rates
2006 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015
1 78.57 78.57 78.57 78.57 80.14 80.14 81.74 81.74
2 80.36 80.36 80.36 80.36 81.96 81.96 83.60 83.60
3 82.14 82.14 82.14 82.14 83.79 83.79 85.46 85.46
4 83.96 83.96 83.96 83.96 85.63 85.63 87.35 87.35
5 85.82 85.82 85.82 85.82 87.54 87.54 89.29 89.29
6 87.53 87.53 87.53 87.53 89.28 89.28 91.07 91.07
7 89.29 89.29 89.29 89.29 91.07 91.07 92.90 92.90
8 91.07 91.07 91.07 91.07 92.89 92.89 94.75 94.75
9 92.89 92.89 92.89 92.89 94.75 94.75 96.64 96.64
10 94.74 94.74 94.74 94.74 96.64 96.64 98.57 98.57
11 96.64 96.64 96.64 98.58 98.58 100.55 100.55
12 98.58 98.58 100.55 100.55 102.56 102.56


US EMB 190 First Officer Rates

2006 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015
1 41.22 41.22 41.22 41.22 42.05 42.05 42.89 42.89
2 43.72 43.72 43.72 43.72 44.60 44.60 45.49 45.49
3 46.22 46.22 46.22 46.22 47.15 47.15 48.09 48.09
4 48.72 48.72 48.72 48.72 49.70 49.70 50.69 50.69
5 51.13 51.13 51.13 51.13 52.16 52.16 53.20 53.20
6 52.16 52.16 52.16 52.16 53.20 53.20 54.26 54.26
7 53.20 53.20 53.20 54.26 54.26 55.35 55.35
8 54.26 54.26 55.34 55.34 56.45 56.45
9 55.34 56.45 56.45 57.58 57.58
10 57.58 57.58 58.74 58.74
11 58.73 59.90 59.90
12 61.11 61.11

Does this mean you negotiated an 8 year agrrement with a wage freeze for the first four years?


WOW! That sure doesn't do anybody any favors including you.

If that is what you did it actually means that by the time we get to 2011 you will actually have take an additional 12% pay cut IF inflations stays at 3%.

 

[Crzipilot]

Yeah, sure does look that way, It also calls for a section 6 opener if 4 airlines put this model into place and pay higher. So I guess it will depend on you regionals to bring the pay up??? Again, for the current state of wages, That they were able to negotiate approx. 10.00/hr more than other regionals, AND keep it on mainline, I never said the scale was great....but well it's better.

Oh, BTW....how long is your wage freeze for additional airframes?

 

[surplus1]

Yeah, sure does look that way, It also calls for a section 6 opener if 4 airlines put this model into place and pay higher. So I guess it will depend on you regionals to bring the pay up??? Again, for the current state of wages, That they were able to negotiate approx. 10.00/hr more than other regionals, AND keep it on mainline, I never said the scale was great....but well it's better.

Oh, BTW....how long is your wage freeze for additional airframes?

Our longevity freeze runs out in '07 (if the contingencies are met). It froze our '04 scales for 2 years. Doesn't really matter now since we'll be lucky if we survive the superior management of our mainline friends.

Hey, I'm happy you got to keep the airplanes. As for us regionals bringing the pay scales up .... a good idea, but virtually impossible while you majors are bringing them down.

This is how your '06 book rate compares to our '04 (current) book rate. Yours on the left, ours on the right; + = difference in your favor. Do keep in mind that ours is for a CRJ-700 w/70 single class, and yours is for an EMB-190 w/106 single class (a 36 s. dif.) --- the apples aren't quite like the oranges.

AWA190 ----- CMR700 ------ Diff
CA
05 -85.82 ----- 74.94 ------- + 10.88
08 -91.07 ----- 82,12 ------- + 8.85
10 -94.14 ----- 88.86 ------- + 5.28
12 -98.58 ----- 94.43 ------- + 4.14

FO
02 - 43.72 ----- 41.04 ------- + 2.68
05 - 51.13 ----- 44.96 ------- + 6.17
08 - 54.26 ----- 49.27 ------- + 4.99

Note that the $10 you mention occurs in only one instance. We have few CA w/ that longevity in that eqpt. you will likely have most at yr. 5 (unless of course you can fence the U pilots into this machine). This lowers the differential in real dollars to virtually less than nothing.

I'm not criticizing you, just pointing out that the picture is grim, which you probably already know.

Given that our mainline "partner" has managed to take our little airline from most profitable in the industry to bankruptcy in less than 5 years, we have nothing to celebrate.

This trend, even w/o the BK debacle, would force us to reduce our scales substantially anyway and most probably gut the rest of our CBA to match yours.

It's not your fault and I know that. I just have to cry in my beer somewhere and this is as good a place as any.

Looks like our only option will be to "underbid" MESA, which will then underbid us, again. Look for DL to "underbid" you and us, and us to "underbid" them in turn. We've built a jolly cluster Fk for ourselves.

Here's hoping your merger won't result in more furloughs. No doubt you'll be in a hug-fest with the U pilots before it's over. Aren't the "career expectations" just peachy?

I wish you well.

 

[DiverDriver]

Diver Driver,

Uhmmm...you can't really compare year 18 rate with year 12 rate. Compare the same years and this pay scale is about 10.00 more an hour than Air Wisconsin. Thanks, but play again.

Why can't you compare the top rate of each airline? Top rate is top rate. Can you earn more on the E-190 at U with more than 12 years seniority? If you can please explain. I think it's absolutely right to compare the top rate of each scale. It's the most you could earn.

Oh well, I guess my view is just wrong since I've been told "thanks for playing". That's the internet equivalent of "you're an idiot now go away". Wonder who made you the expert?

 

[surfnfly]

I'm sick of all these regional guys saying how good your rates are and that mainline undercut them. Don't forget that at mainline your not gonna be on a E-190 forever. You get to move on to bigger and better paying equipment, now that's the difference between a major and express. At Republic your not gonna see anything over 70 seats. If you want to fly bigger equipment apply to a major and join the competition. It's a hell of alot harder than getting on at a regional where all you need is 600/1 and a pulse.

 

[Doug Parker]

Why can't you compare the top rate of each airline? Top rate is top rate. Can you earn more on the E-190 at U with more than 12 years seniority? If you can please explain. I think it's absolutely right to compare the top rate of each scale. It's the most you could earn.

Oh well, I guess my view is just wrong since I've been told "thanks for playing". That's the internet equivalent of "you're an idiot now go away". Wonder who made you the expert?

You Regional guys are fcuking stupid............

You wanna talk top pay ??????

12th year A330 Capt @ USAir is $160 / hour
12th year A330 FO @ USAir is $109 / hour

18th year BAE146 Capt @ Air Whiskey is $111 / hour............
12th year BAE146 Capt @ Air Whiskey is $88 /hour - talk about lowering the bar !!!

How many 12 year FO's / Captains are going to be on the 190 at Airways ???

I'd imagine most will progress to the bigger iron and bigger $$........not topped out like at Air Whiskey ............

Do the 'TOP RATE' comparison DiverDriver !! Spank you very much.............

 

[DiverDriver]

Do the 'TOP RATE' comparison DiverDriver !! Spank you very much.............

Wow, very intellectual exchange there. Let me excuse myself from your superior presence. At a time where unity is needed you choose to divide. And we all wonder why we can't stop the slide to the bottom.

I asked a question about people's definition of undercutting with no smart remarks or jabs. All I got in return is BS. Nice. And you are the "professionals" of mainline? Wow.

 

[Doug Parker]

.


I don't expect much out of a 'DiverDriver'....................





.

 

[DiverDriver]

.


I don't expect much out of a 'DiverDriver'....................

.

Last word!!






...your turn.

 

[Lampshade]

Why can't you compare the top rate of each airline? Top rate is top rate. Can you earn more on the E-190 at U with more than 12 years seniority? If you can please explain. I think it's absolutely right to compare the top rate of each scale. It's the most you could earn.

Why do you want to compare a 12yr scale of one airline to a 18yr scale of another? Thats moron speak.


p.s. you might have made a valid point (AWAC making more)if you didn't push that concession contract as a ALPA rep.

 

[DiverDriver]

Why do you want to compare a 12yr scale of one airline to a 18yr scale of another? Thats moron speak.


p.s. you might have made a valid point (AWAC making more)if you didn't push that concession contract as a ALPA rep.

Ok, I'll give you that more than a few seem to think that comparing top hourly pay no matter the longevity isn't the right way to look at it. I'm up for learning something new. But no one has yet to explain why you don't want to look at it that way. If we are trying to compare apples to apples and most pay is based on number of seats then why is this a bad comparison? The current book is 111 as top rate on the 146 (88-100 seats) and the new US Air TA seems to have top rate for 100 seats at 89/hr. No one is guaranteeing anyone that they will move up but yes, things should recover and people should move up and out of the 190 at mainline...hopefully. I'm looking at this as: what is happening now? What's the current rate being looked at? And right now, the thing I see is a lower rate for a 100 seat aircraft than what a "regional" is making.

And thanks for remembering I was a rep once. So, even AFTER the concessionary agreement of 2003 the 146 still pays more than what has been proposed on the 190.

Look, I've never made an arguement either way whether I think the 190 should be at a regional or mainline only. I only want to see a fare wage paid for any aircraft and I think that they woefully underbid what they could have. Because of this it will put pressure on other areas to come down again. I thought the goal was to try and put the brakes on and stop the skidding.

Oh yah, and I didn't vote a concession in all by myself. But thanks for thinking I had that power.

 

[Lampshade]

If you worked at a AWAC for 12 years and called your buddy up at AWA/US (who has been there for 12 years) after they receive the E190 and ask him what he makes compared to what you make:

2015
The 12yr CA rate for the E190(end of scale) $102.56 (not $89 like you said)
The 12yr CA rate for the Bae146 $89.01

Difference $13.55
(you have to be at AWAC 17yrs ($103.47)to make more than AWA/USA )

2006
If we got them in 2006 E190(10 yr longevity) $94.74
BAe146 (10 yr longevity) $83.75

Difference $10.99

Average hourly pay
A 2006 30yr Avg. pay for 146 AWAC $92, E190 AWA/US $92, $0 diff

A 2015 30yr Avg. pay for 146 AWAC $92, E190 AWA/US $104, $12 diff


AWAC has a 20 year scale $113.06(not 18yr $111.00 not like you said ) this is a retirement aircraft pilots move up to this when they can. The new USAir the E190 will be a entry level A/C. There will be no pilots over 5 yrs longevity on it! Why because they can make more on the A319/320/330/350, B737/757/767. Are we fcking up your retirement A/C? maybe, but the regionals have been fcking up the entry level A/C for a while. Don't get me wrong a 20 year scale is good to have but you can't just say "we top out at $$$" with out the all details. BTW the 146 are going away.

 

[Crzipilot]

Ok, well lets see. There are other airlines out there that are more than willing to fly the 190 for a cheaper rate. In addition there are some inherent cost increases of operating an aircraft on mainline as opposed to at a contractor. In addition though there is some profit savings doing the same.

Simply looking at the TOP of scale isn't realistic, as how many pilots will you actually have at the top of scale. I've seen some airlines drag pay scales out to 20+ years in the past, and their pilot group was about 2 years old, With large pay increases at the 10+ level, and generally unrealistic that at this particular carrier anyone would be there for that long. I'm sure with the history of your airline there are a fairly good percentage that might be at or close to that 18yr mark. BUT it's as far as they are going to go. True the US seniority list is a little senior at this moment, but in the next few years there is going to be some significant movement (allowing for the fact that the combined carrier is still around) Enough movement that I doubt after 5 years there would be anyone with 12 yrs flying capt on the 190, unless it was a personal choice for whatever reason. Even at that, true it's a payscale till 2015 but not sure when negotiations will be due for a new contract after a joing contract is negotiated. Anyways, the point in progression of your career. the 190 on mainline would be looked at as entry level jet, as well as entry level capt position. the chance and ability to upgrade to larger equipment, with higher pay is available.

Current book:
AWAC US
1 63 78.57
2 65 80.36
3 67 82.14
4 69 83.96
5 71 85.82
6 73 87.53
7 75 89.29
8 78 91.07
9 80 92.89
10 83 94.74
11 85 96.64
12 88 98.58
13 90
14 93
15 96
16 99
17 102
18 105
17 108???
18 111??? not sure why this was stated like this on airlinepilotpay


So you finally meet parity after 16 yrs within the company. If one was to simply stay on this aircraft for their career.....where would one make the highest W-2 or cumlative earnings??? You might catch up after 30 years, but again the transgression of the mainline will lead to bigger and higher paying equipment. Even in the downturns eventually it opens up again, the typical cyclic of the industry. As management knows this also, and can offer that 20 year pay scale, knowing that as the industry upturns, they will loose alot of the midlevel sr. jumping to carriers with better QOL, Equipment etc. Also in negotiating the payscale, one has to look at the transgression of a particular groups career. Most f/o scales top out at 5yr, 8 year, something like that. Why is that??? Mgt, knows most guys will be in the left seat by that time, if not, it's a different spin on the up and out policy. Either upgrade or no more raises, if you can't upgrade well your screwed at that pay or you leave, making room for a new pilot at a lower cost. Why does your F/O pay stop at 8 yr??? Why aren't there steps up to 18 yr too???
Another question, what were the 146 rates prior to 2003??? And how did they compare to the mainline rates of 1st yr capt. 111, 12 yr at 124 ( It think?)

 

[DiverDriver]

Gentlemen, thank you for your thought out explanations. I appreciate it and I understand your point of view more.