Low-fare revolution could topple major airlines

[USNFDX]

Capitalism?????

What part of capitalism don't you understand?

Pure capitalism doesn't apply to this industry. Not so long as you have a Seniority System. As let say a 737 captain at airline X, you can't say "Company is treating me like crap, work rules have gone to hell, they're making me work on my days off...I'm Out of here, I'm going to be a Captain at Airline "Y" Doesn't work that way. With a seniority system companies got pilots by the B@lls. Conversely, Unions got the company by the B@lls.

Personally, I'm not big on unions (Economics 101), they are monopoly of labor, and yes the artificially jack up wages. However, in this industry, it is a necessary evil. Flying jets is seen as a glamourous career. The supply, or potential supply of pilots for this industry far exceeds the demand. In the end, Company x,y,z. will pay as little as possible for labor. Work rules will go to hell, safety will be comprimised.

What should we get paid, I'm not sure. I personally believe most commuters and JB, SWA, Airtran, etc are underpaid for what they do. DAL and UAL seem to me to be a little excessive, but don't try and tell them that.

This is just one persons opinion. Sorry for all the spelling errors.

 

[dogg]

I love spew like that. Why anybody listens to any thing that all these change jangling heel rockers say is beyond me.

First they are down on airlines that are conservative with intelligent expansion plans and they sing the praises of the chronic over expanders. Next it is the conservative airlines that are doing it right and the top five overexpanders should have known better.

These clowns are about as useful as yesterdays weather being forecast today.
If anybody is over paid it is the city-slicker suit goons.

You know, hourly operating cost for a 737 and the 319 are around 7000.00 an hour and eventually you have to pay for those jets and all the company structure that goes along with operating them.

just wondering how long you can be profitable if you cant expand into new markets.

I think that in ten to 15 years there may not be as much over-capacity as there is today and the successful airline model will be somewhere between Southwest and Delta

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

My company just bought a last-minute fair for me on SWA from DTW to San Antonio for $299. The service was good, and the drinks/snacks were decent. I had a decent amount of room in coach.

Compare this with a last minute flight on NWA from DTW-GRB (a MUCH shorter trip). The last minute "Special" internet fair was over $700. There was MUCH less service, and the drink/snack service sucked when compared to SWA. I had much less room in coach than on SWA.

So the low-cost carrier had much better service and a significantly more room at my seat. It's a no-brainer. Unless DAL, UAL, AA, NWA and Continental do something (I'm not even counting USAir), I don't see them competing.

Cliff
GRB

PS-I would love to work for NWA in the future. I hope I get that chance.

PPS-Maybe one of the majors should code-share or merge with SWA. SWA could do all of the domestic flying, and the major could turn into an all-international airline?

 

[JayDub]

Can anyone name any American industry that has not shifted towards higher efficency lower cost production of goods or services?

Bull feathers. Did McDonalds, Burger King, et al drive out every fine restaurant in this country? I think not.

To think the low cost operators can drive out the Majors by themselves is ridiculous. If Ruth's Chris Steak House was selling every steak dinner for $10-$200 with an average price of $29 while it cost them on average of $35 dollars to prepare it, they'd be in trouble too. Imagine getting to be the one or two people a night that had to pay $200 for the exact same dinner that the idiot next to you is slobbering down his shirt, but only paying $10 for. Now that would drive that type of diner to Burger King.

JetBlue's goal has been to try to meet in the middle as far as people's expectations are concerned. They want to give a great product for a good price. The T.V.s are our #1 draw, according to a recent survey. The fact we don't jerk people around as much on fares helps too.

JayDub

 

[chase]

Comparisons between airlines

Points of Differences

Does show some of the ways SWA tries to stand out among other carriers in ways other than price.

 

[LiveFreeorDie]

Re: Is This really a good thing?????????????

Low Cost Fares are great for consumers, but it comes at a price to all of us. Low cost airlines means low cost compensation to labor. Everyone winds up getting paid like bus drivers and working their butts-off. Service levels also continue to drop. Flying as a passenger is painful. It's not so bad if you go visit grandma once a year, but if you travel alot, it gets really old.

USNFDX - Where did you go to school? Your math doesn't add up. The 30 yr career pay of a SWA pilot is around 8 mil. So it isn't the whopping 18 mil. at UPS, so what? And I just flew SWA from OKC to LUV to get fingerprinted. Plane was on time. Free krispy cream donuts and coffee. Friendly flight attendents and pilots. Courteous gate agents. Comfy roomy leather seat. So I didn't get a microwave dinner with my flight? So what? I hope you keep your job with FedX if that is what you got. And for the love of God, don't get into the management side of things.


Cheers

 

[FearlessFreep]

Ok, Ok, Ok,

Ya'll just calm down! Set that glass down and step away from the Koolaid! (This was a line I heard from a WN management type during a tour of the training centre!)

It is a tumultuous time for the industry right now. It will probably not recover back to it's former glory for a while. While that is happening, time will tell.

As for the low fare airlines, more power to you guys. I just hope that you will not become the only game in town. To erase choice is not healthy and certainly isn't any fun. The idea of not even having the opportunity to choose different levels of service is disappointing. No choice of seats, no business class, no first class. Pretty dismal if you ask me. I think that all the airlines have a place. I mean after all if I am on a short flight do I need the aforementioned amenities or services? No. On a long flight I would at least like to have a choice of a seat.

WN is ok and they are effective and cheap. I will say that over the years though there has not been as much LUV dished out to the customers as their was in the past. Just from a passenger's point of view there can be some improvement. The seats are either entirely blown out or are unbelievably hard. The aircraft cabins are absolutely filthy. I can also tell you stories that I have heard from friends about human excrement (liquid & solid) on the seats and a cabin crew that doesn't know how to deal with it. I know that it is difficult to keep the aircraft clean with 20 minute turns but I feel like taking a shower immediately after I disembark. This whole open seating thing brings up the baser instincts of man, with constant pushing, shoving and jockying for position with all the other pax. With the flying I do I do not even have the option of getting to the gate early enough to get a good spot. EVERY TIME I fly I get "screened" at the gate (one way tickets) so that negates my rushing for a seat. The CSR's are getting more and more terse and short tempered, this is probably because of all the stress in flying, post 9/11. I have talked to other people and they voiced similar opinions. Otherwise WN is ok, it is cheap and on time and for the most part everyone works as a team, which is very commendable.

I have yet to fly on JB, I am interested in seeing how they work things.

Well that's my two cents! Nothing personal!

Good Luck All!

 

[typhoonpilot]

CCdisco:

"Change or die.

I have a question, how does international flying fit in with the LCC revolution?"

This is an excellent question and must be woven into the debate. The low fare carriers are fine for domestic service and possibly for short range international service, but how about LAX-NRT or JFK-LHR ? Passengers won't be willing to fly on a 737-700ER from Los Angeles to Tokyo with only a couple bags of pretzels and a coke for the 12 plus hour journey even if they could watch TV all the way across

The point to point network doesn't support them flying those routes either. Those flights almost all need to be fed traffic from different cities to be feasible. I think Delta is moving the way that the U.S. industry will go. An all widebody fleet flying International and long haul domestic, being fed by RJs from their affiliates. They are just buying time with the new 757 operation. The other majors are heading that way as well, as it will help them survive for another decade or two until someone figures out a good low cost international model.

Another part to the equation that has hurt the majors so much is the business traveller that has abandoned the domestic service in favor of corporate jets. Flex Jet, Net jets, Raytheon, et al are taking care of the businessman for domestic travelling at a reasonable price, but the businessman doesn't need the G-V ( G-450, whatever ) for those twice yearly jaunts to Tokyo. It is much more reasonable to get a Northwest World Business Class seat for that.

Typhoonpilot

 

[Publishers]

Last first

Have you ever heard of Virgin Airways, the what by definition on this board was an LCC across the Atlantic.

The fact is that majors have been headed towards SWA for some time with a shrinking base of business customers.

The difference between Delta and Ruth Crist is that no major has enough high paying passengers to sustain any route structure. They need through yield management to have them both on the same plane. In good times, they have been getting away with it. In bad, they do not. Meanwhile their service level has declined to where it is no better than Southwest or AirTran.

As to the pay at these being inferior, get a life. Most Americans would be happy to have that income. As many Eastern and Pan Am pilots found out along the way, they had it great and when they lost it, they found themselves scrapping for anything.

 

[typhoonpilot]

Publishers:

I would debate that Virgin is a low fare international carrier. They have economy, premium economy, and upper class service. The upper class includes chauffer driven limosine service.

Their fares may be lower than BA but they are a far cry from a low fare carrier.

Typhoonpilot