Looks Like 1500 Hours May Become the New Hiring Minimum Among Other Things:

[CptMurf]

Ive never been impressed with military pilots transfering to civilian. Myself included.

We are very good at what we do but when we go to civilian, we may as well start from scratch.

If the ATP is the standard, then that's what it is...
If they have the time, get the rating.
If they don't, sorry, go get the time.
Just because they were prior service does not mean they should get yet another leg up over a qualified regional/135/civ 91 guy/gal.


Before I get bombarded...I'm prior service too. Just didn't fly.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

But also what needs to be done is oversight of the 1500 hrs that pilots will be building. It has to be good quality flying. The ATP requirements need to be changed.
Can't be someone who has a rich dad that bought them a C172 and they're racking up hours in it.

I knew someone like this.

Basically didn't want to CFI (nor should he have - very poor skills). Old man bought the kid planes to fly. Kid flew the family SEL (All fair-weather with the father) and once he hit 1000+, pops bought a twin for the magical 200 MEL, then sold it. Wouldn't let anyone else touch the yoke. Kid went on several interviews btwn 07-08. Couldn't get hired with ATP hrs even with 300/50 being given classes.

 

[Lear70]

In short, ICE did not cause this crash. Mostly I think it comes down to the way Colgan selected, trained, tested & treated the crew. I'm also not a big fan of their SOPS, in particular going Conditions Levers MAX as part of the gear down flow, with no verbalization.

No argument there.

Don't they already have those...it's call a private, instrument, commercial, multi checkrides and writtens (for the aptitude evaluations). Maybe those should be more critical (and document deficiencies better) and more weight put on them when evaluating a newhire or a potential ATP candidate as the case maybe. Re-evaluating past problem areas to check overall understanding and abilities.

No, they don't have those.

What I'm talking about is a COMPREHENSIVE exam once you HAVE 1,500 hours, prior to starting your ATP training, that covers EVERY, SINGLE question on ALL the tests, private through commercial multi, the FAR's, the AIM, and THEN a CHECKRIDE that covers ALL maneuvers, judgment, and performance under pressure, prior to even STARTING the ATP training.

Similar to the MCAT or LSAT, make it a 4-6 hour marathon test covering EVERYTHING they should have learned. You can only take it twice, maybe three times in your lifetime, period. Fail, and you don't get another shot at it. Ever.

Not everyone who WANTS to be a pilot SHOULD be a pilot; I've flown with several of them: people who will never upgrade because they don't have the stick skills, basic flying instincts, or the ability to multi-task under pressure. We need to weed those people out before they get into the 121 world.

Once word gets around how tough it is to get INTO the program and, like others have said, limit the places you can obtain an ATP to 3 or 4 in the ENTIRE COUNTRY, and make it just as hard as getting your JAA license, THEN we'll be closer to ensuring safety by making sure only people who really have the aptitude to be pilots make it to the flight deck of an airliner, as well as bottle knecking the supply pipeline which will drive up wages by basic supply and demand.

Just like the medical and legal fields.

 

[tyuwerty]

The FAA ATP exam is a joke. I bought a book, read through it 2 or 3 times and scored a 98%.

The Canadian ATP in contrast actually involved study time. I did that 15 years ago, 2 exams, it took a week of straight study time (unemployed at the time) for each of the 2 exams. I think the exams themselves each took about 2 or 3 hours to write.

 

[UALjan15]

Am I missing something here. Everyone is talking about how the 1500 hours will save everything and that if everyone has 1500 hours then there will never be a crash and so on. Well if we look at the pilots in question, did'nt they both have atleast 1500 hours? So how will making sure every pilot has 1500 hours change anything? It doesnt make sense the FO was a CFII, not sure on the MEI, and had over 1500hours, it just drives me crazy that everyone thinks if you have a CFII and over 1500 hours you will never make a mistake. She had little to no actual, nor had she ever seen ice to that extent, but she had over 1500 hours????? I do not think it is a matter of amount of hours but quality of hours that one needs. Where and how is the pilot supposed to gain those hours I do not have the answer but I think looking at just a ,total time, requriment will not solve the problem!

Two things: First, much of this discussion isn't really about safety, but more about supply and demand; more specifically, how to choke off supply dramatically by eliminating the puppy mills. If my basic econ class still applies, that makes the entry level pilot worth more, helping to reverse the current death spiral.

Second, the very real safety issue. I think we can all agree that 1500 hours does not equal a qualified 121 F/O. Here's what does, however: an ATP license (which happens to require 1500 hours). So no, they're not just looking at a total time requirement, which I would agree solves nothing. But if I'm putting my family on a regional and I know BOTH pilots have an ATP (assuming they don't dilute the standards of this checkride, which should be a tough one), then I'm feeling a lot better about the risk involved.

Pass this law!

 

[Clyde Frog]

Two things: First, much of this discussion isn't really about safety, but more about supply and demand; more specifically, how to choke off supply dramatically by eliminating the puppy mills. If my basic econ class still applies, that makes the entry level pilot worth more, helping to reverse the current death spiral.

Second, the very real safety issue. I think we can all agree that 1500 hours does not equal a qualified 121 F/O. Here's what does, however: an ATP license (which happens to require 1500 hours). So no, they're not just looking at a total time requirement, which I would agree solves nothing. But if I'm putting my family on a regional and I know BOTH pilots have an ATP (assuming they don't dilute the standards of this checkride, which should be a tough one), then I'm feeling a lot better about the risk involved.

Pass this law!

Very well said. I agree completely.

 

[Bringupthebird]

It sure doesn't seem like those 1500 hours they each had (more for the Capt) were quality hours. They lacked basic airmanship skills. You don't pull back on the yoke during a stall. You don't put the flaps up during one either. That plane pancaked straight down on ONE house. You have to set a new standard (a higher standard) and go from there. To the pilots, I say RIP. But, something has to be done here.


Bye Bye---General Lee

I still think the story is not as simple as that. Look at the NASA tailplane icing video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ifKduc1hE8 . I wouldn't be surprised if this film wasn't in the back of his mind and immediately thought of tailplane icing when it pitched forward with flap deployment. An uncommanded raising of the flaps brought too many unknowns to react properly.

I have been involved in an accident investigation and I saw it was easier to blame the pilot and that this became the cause cast in stone.

I could be wrong, but I think the guy deserves the benefit of the doubt and a bad check ride (or even two) may not mean that the guy was a pitfully poor stick.

 

[kf4amu]

I could be wrong, but I think the guy deserves the benefit of the doubt and a bad check ride (or even two) may not mean that the guy was a pitfully poor stick.

5 does.

 

[Trash8Mofo]

What I'm talking about is a COMPREHENSIVE exam once you HAVE 1,500 hours, prior to starting your ATP training, that covers EVERY, SINGLE question on ALL the tests, private through commercial multi, the FAR's, the AIM, and THEN a CHECKRIDE that covers ALL maneuvers, judgment, and performance under pressure, prior to even STARTING the ATP training.

Not to mention high altitude aerodynamics, high speed aerodynamics, Crew scenarios, and probably even supersonic theories and considerations for the future. Overkill? Maybe. But I can say honestly that I myself am not comfortable with my own knowledge in these areas, and my plane can go to FL510 and does M0.92.


Similar to the MCAT or LSAT, make it a 4-6 hour marathon test covering EVERYTHING they should have learned. You can only take it twice, maybe three times in your lifetime, period. Fail, and you don't get another shot at it. Ever.

EXACTLY.

Once word gets around how tough it is to get INTO the program and, like others have said, limit the places you can obtain an ATP to 3 or 4 in the ENTIRE COUNTRY, and make it just as hard as getting your JAA license, THEN we'll be closer to ensuring safety by making sure only people who really have the aptitude to be pilots make it to the flight deck of an airliner...

Another factor that driving wages down are the young pilots' self-worth, or the lack thereof. Self-worth is in direct proportion to the amount of effort spent and sacrifices made. It would help if pilot selection have such an aptitude test that requires a solid 3 months full-time effort to prepare, and that one can only take 2-3 times ever. It would also send a warning to anyone who is thinking about becoming a pilot that after spending $20K and passed the commercial/instrument licenses, there is no guarantee for an ATP.

I encourage everyone to write their congressmen about this. This is the one time you can do something about what you get paid 5 years from now.

 

[NCFlyer]

I still think the story is not as simple as that. Look at the NASA tailplane icing video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ifKduc1hE8 . I wouldn't be surprised if this film wasn't in the back of his mind and immediately thought of tailplane icing when it pitched forward with flap deployment. An uncommanded raising of the flaps brought too many unknowns to react properly.

I agree.

I believe that they both were so concerned about icing and the possible tailplane stall that that is what he reacted to. Of course we will never know what was on his mind or what he was thinking. It seems that he did the correct tailplane stall recovery which only worsen the situation.

The aircraft went from straight & level at 170kts to stalled, in what 8-10 seconds, and neither of the pilots noticed the rapidly decreasing airspeed.

Truly tragic in more ways than 1.

 

[Lear70]

I encourage everyone to write their congressmen about this. This is the one time you can do something about what you get paid 5 years from now.

Absolutely!

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Here is what ALPA said about that:

Screening

Additionally, pilots today coming from non-military backgrounds often do not have the challenging experience of their predecessors on which to build – e.g. flying corporate, night freight, or flight instructing - before being hired at entry-level, or regional air carriers.

What??? I did all three of those. Flight instructing was a cakewalk, of course, but at least you learned the regs. The flight time was pretty much a throw-away.

The corporate flying I did was not much different than airline flying - minus the crappy schedule.

Night cargo? Night cargo is some of the hardest flying out there. Forget private pilot crap, cargo is where I learned to really fly.

Like I said, instructing is where most pilots really learn the guts of the regs, but shouldn't that be what we're doing when we are getting the Private, Comm, and Instr. ratings?

Maybe the changes coming down the pipe will raise pay for flight instructors and we'll get some experienced pilots back into the ranks of instructors.

 

[pilotyip]

Rich people advantage?

Two things: First, much of this discussion isn't really about safety, but more about supply and demand; more specifically, how to choke off supply dramatically by eliminating the puppy mills. If my basic econ class still applies, that makes the entry level pilot worth more, helping to reverse the current death spiral. Pass this law!

Has anyone thought that this may be just he recipe for those rich pilots whose daddy’s own an airplane or has lots of money to eliminate all of the poor trash trying to be pilots? It will become the career that rich people can pass down to their kids. Is this going to be a result of this?

 

[pilotyip]

Exactly

What???

Night cargo? Night cargo is some of the hardest flying out there. Forget private pilot crap, cargo is where I learned to really fly.

Maybe the changes coming down the pipe will raise pay for flight instructors and we'll get some experienced pilots back into the ranks of instructors.

Places like USA Jet, Kalitta, Ameristar is where you really learn to fly. The career success of our former employees confirms this fact.

 

[cjdriver]

Places like USA Jet, Kalitta, Ameristar is where you really learn to fly. The career success of our former employees confirms this fact.

The best pilots I've flown with were freight dogs, by far. You can build 1500 hours, and actually get a lot out of the process.

In regards to min qualifications, in the corporate world, both pilots are usually ATP's and typed in the aircraft. Why wouldn't the airlines require the same thing? It's ridiculous to have a multi-million dollar airplane and then save a few bucks on training for the operators.