Look before you leap, NJASAP!

[Mooneymite]

You have answered none of my questions, and only raised more.
...

So how does the NJA pilots leaving the IBT (or staying) have any effect on that?

How will staying with the IBT help to realize your dream?

Since you have a dream, you must have given some thought to how to get there. So how would we get there? Where is this magical "strong union representing all pilots" coming from? How would us remaining IBT help that become a reality?

...
.

Ultragrump, if a strong union is the magical solution, fragmentation and fractionalization of the pilot force runs counter to the solution.

When I started flying professionally 40 years ago, there was, essentially, only one pilot union allied with the AFL-CIO. Our wages and working conditions were far better and the environment for labor in Washington was far better. Those two factors are tightly inter-related. We didn't realize it at that time, but labor's influence was already on the wan.

In 1978, de-regulation was pushed through. It was aimed squarely at the heart of airline labor. The basics had changed, but our union did not change. It has not changed significantly to this day, almost 30 years later.

My solution of a strong national union of ALL pilots allied with all workers bound by the NRLA, will never be realized as long as we put our parochial needs at the local level ahead of the over-all goal of unified political strength in Washington. This is not so much a matter of organization as it is of changing the attitude of "my interests first" at the grass-roots level.

Can I single-handedly organize all the pilots into one union? I cannot. However no one can until the pilots want to be organized into a single strong union with political clout.

If I can get people thinking about the dangers of fragmentation and the advantages of having a strong, unified union, perhaps I have made a first step in realizing my dream.

I'm glad you are asking the questions that you are asking, but it's easy to nay-say; what's your solution?

How does NJASAP fit into the resurrection of labor's strength in Washington?

 

[Fozzy]

Lay it out

So how does this national union work? One seniority number for life? One contract? What happens if a company goes under? Or am I way off on where you think this should be?

What not an association of unions? Kind of like states in a republic.

 

[Fozzy]

How does NJASAP fit into the resurrection of labor's strength in Washington?

How can it be worse than the representation we are currently getting.
We are getting nothing from IBT. They are actually working against the fractionals and GA's best interest.

 

[fischman]

So how does this national union work? One seniority number for life? One contract? What happens if a company goes under? Or am I way off on where you think this should be?

What not an association of unions? Kind of like states in a republic.

As soon as you get your ATP (or some other milestone), you get a seniority number for life. The contract is still negitoated by your local., If your company goes under, you still hold seniority on the list.

 

[Fozzy]

Okay so I work at carrier A for 15 years, the company goes under. How do I get hired at carrier B? Do I apply? Do I get 15 year pay at carrier B? Do I go right to the left seat at Carrier B? Why would carrier B hire a 15 year Captain?$?
What happens to all the FO's at carrier B that are waiting for upgrade?
I like the discussion.

 

[fischman]

Okay so I work at carrier A for 15 years, the company goes under. How do I get hired at carrier B? Do I apply? Do I get 15 year pay at carrier B? Do I go right to the left seat at Carrier B? Why would carrier B hire a 15 year Captain?$?
What happens to all the FO's at carrier B that are waiting for upgrade?
I like the discussion.

Sure you have to apply. Yes, if you have 15 years of seniority, you get 15 year pay. Sounds pretty good huh? So what are the wins for the company? They get to keep experience where it was. Therefore, if they get a pilot from Aloha that had 15 years of experience on 737, maybe he would be more valuable in a 737 than an A319 or a EMB145.

There is a great thread on this forum: Read the post by Airwhisky31 that is quoted (2 big paragraphs).

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/showthread.php?p=150806

 

[Mooneymite]

So how does this national union work? One seniority number for life? One contract? What happens if a company goes under? Or am I way off on where you think this should be?

What not an association of unions? Kind of like states in a republic.

I think it best that the local still negotiate its own contract/working conditions. The local has to be the building block of the National union. It will keep the national "in touch" with the membership. It will do all the day-to-day administrative chores.

National will primarily set policy and minimum wages/working conditions. No local contract will be "approved" unless it falls in line with national guidelines. No group will be permitted to undercut another...even if the local's company cries that the national guidlines will bankrupt it and put everyone out of work.

National's other "big job" is to be an advocate for labor generally and pilots specifically in Washington.

The national seniority list is a tough (very tough!) issue. I've played with a couple of ideas. The most workable solution is starting at a certain date, national would issue a seniority number to each recipient of a commercial pilot's licence. At that point the commercial pilot will be required to pay an escalating "maintenance fee" to stay on the seniority list. As long as he pays his fees, even if he goes and teaches school for twenty years, he maintains his number. Any one who does not pay his fee, may be re-instated, but at the bottom of the list.

Won't affect anyone working today, but going forward (and, my! how time flies.), we will have every pilot on the list. Anyone who scabs, or works for sub-wages, will lose his number.

Just one idea...the devil is in the details. The ALPA has grappled with the idea for 50 years and hasn't come up with a solution...I must be crazy for running an idea up the flagpole!

First effort: Get unified in goals and set objectives. Watch big business scream!

 

[Fozzy]

Sure you have to apply. Yes, if you have 15 years of seniority, you get 15 year pay. Sounds pretty good huh? So what are the wins for the company? They get to keep experience where it was. Therefore, if they get a pilot from Aloha that had 15 years of experience on 737, maybe he would be more valuable in a 737 than an A319 or a EMB145.

Had to quote and respond to this before I read the next.
Are you serious with that argument? Name one company that would buy onto that plan? Seriously, you have to sell that they should hire one pilot at 15 year wages when they could get 1.5-2 pilots at year 1 wages.
Better come up with a better sell.
Safety does not matter in the airline business. Just look at our governing body. Sad but true.
Still interested in this idea, but we may need a plan C.

 

[Fozzy]

National will primarily set policy and minimum wages/working conditions. No local contract will be "approved" unless it falls in line with national guidelines. No group will be permitted to undercut another...even if the local's company cries that the national guidlines will bankrupt it and put everyone out of work.

Love it. Ending the race to the bottom is a good start. I don't see us far apart in ideas, but I see leaving IBT as a start to moving forward.

 

[fischman]

Had to quote and respond to this before I read the next.
Are you serious with that argument? Name one company that would buy onto that plan? Seriously, you have to sell that they should hire one pilot at 15 year wages when they could get 1.5-2 pilots at year 1 wages.
Better come up with a better sell.
Safety does not matter in the airline business. Just look at our governing body. Sad but true.
Still interested in this idea, but we may need a plan C.

Admittedly, I'm not explaining it very well. It is a complex concept. Do a google search on it and educate yourself. I think it is a fantastic idea.