Look before you leap, NJASAP!

[Mooneymite]

Aha,

I see the problem now MM. It appears that you think we could just join the AFL-CIO and make that our union. Not the case. The AFL-CIO is a federation of national and international unions. Member unions join the AFL-CIO. ALPA is a union that joined the AFL-CIO. The Teamsters used to be a member of the AFL-CIO. We could join the AFL-CIO as a member union but we'd have to be independent first.

As I said in an earlier post, the first actual election of officers will occur after we get our own union. That group will be the ones to decide if we affiliate with the AFL-CIO or not. If it is important to you, I suggest you ask each candidate their stance on it. I've already stated that I am in favor of it.

Actually, I do understand the process for affiliation with the AFL-CIO. I alluded to my views in an exchange about "Olsen" which apparently you missed.

I am now going to a part of the issue which does belong on the union board, but since we're here, I'll broach it....

I object to the way NJASAP has sold itself to the membership.

Saving $3000/day is not nearly as important as keeping labor strong. If strength costs us all $4000/day, so be it. I think NJASAP has set itself up for perpetual independence now that the membership has been told that "cheap" is good and that any outside control is bad.

If NJASAP is just an interim step and the real goal is only to change affiliation, it should bill itself as such. I would never have started the thread; it would be an internal NJA pilot question.

Once again, I started this thread because the independent union juggernaut is a threat to labor long-term. Someone needs to stand up and say so. I used NJASAP since it is the latest and most visible local to go independent, but the arguments apply to SWAPA and APA and a multitude of other in-house independents which contribute very little outside of their own little world.

Do we want to be part of organized labor, or dis-organized labor? This is a question that applies far more broadly than just to NJA pilots.

Sorry if those verses are not in the NJASAP song book.

 

[Grizz]

MM,

Your objections are duly noted. It appears that 80%+ of the pilots at NetJets don't agree with you. Had you been at NetJets longer and seen the absolute lack of any support from the IBT, you might be numbered among those folks.

As a MEC member, I pledged to watch out for the best interests of NetJets pilots. I feel that this move is clearly in their best interest. Obviously, they do too.

I am done with this thread now. If anyone that has a vote in the matter has any questions, please feel free to contact me directly or post it on the NJASAP message board.

 

[Mooneymite]

MM,

> It appears that 80%+ of the pilots at NetJets don't agree with you. <.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make with this figure. 80% of the NJA pilots obviously think the IBT is doing a terrible job. I do not disagree.

My support has not been directed toward the IBT per se. I am advocating strong support for organizations which can be labor's advocate on a national and global level. Small independent unions will never have any clout in this arena, but they will live and die by the success/failures of labor in the global battle against labor.

Thank you for noting my objections. If the fractionalization of unions continues, I will be proven 100% correct in predicting a worsening environment for all locals to operate in.

I will take small consolation in being right. It will be a disaster for all of us.

NJASAP, look before you leap.

 

[captain dad]

I bet this guy can't pass by a mirror without looking at himself.

You are a tool me thinks.

 

[Mooneymite]

I bet this guy can't pass by a mirror without looking at himself.

Nah...when you get old and ugly, you avoid mirrors.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Mooneymite -

I asked this before, and received no response, so here it is again:

I'm trying to see your ultimate motivation here. Do you want us to become ALPA, or stay IBT? I'm guessing you want to stay IBT. Why are ALPA and IBT your shining examples of trade unionism?

What have the IBT done to improve the piloting profession?

What has their clout accomplished for us (and in so doing, provided a return on our dues investment)? And by "us," I mean fractional pilots, not "unionized labor" in general.

How does our decertification from the Teamsters result in weakening organized labor, when by definition we are still organized?

The Teamsters withdrew from the AFL-CIO. Is that not weakening organized labor? How do you know we won't be affiliating with the AFL-CIO when we become NJASAP? Would that offset leaving the IBT in your eyes?

How will our staying with the IBT accomplish the "house-cleaning" you say it needs? We sent a guy to the Airline Division to try to do that, and he resigned in disgust after just a year.

We've tried and failed to work within the IBT framework. That framework is designed for truck-drivers, not pilots.

 

[netjetwife]

....What has their clout accomplished for us (and in so doing, provided a return on our dues investment)? And by "us," I mean fractional pilots, not "unionized labor" in general....

How does our decertification from the Teamsters result in weakening organized labor, when by definition we are still organized?

How will our staying with the IBT accomplish the "house-cleaning" you say it needs? We sent a guy to the Airline Division to try to do that, and he resigned in disgust after just a year. ...

Very good points, UG! And as ML learned when trying to strengthen the Airline Division, the IBT isn't interested in recruiting pilots. Their main objective is to organize ramp workers. That's fine; they can help those workers and NJASAP will continue to make the frac industry stronger. In planning the future we have to accurately asses the situation with the Teamsters. Not as we would like it to be, but as it actually is.

 

[Helmsalee]

Give MM a break. He has not said that IBT or ALPA are what we need. He is only concerned with the fragmentation of labor in general. NJASAP is not his enemy.He just hope we do not bury our heads in the sand and ignore the rest of the world. It seems to me that Griz agrees with him on this.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Except that he's very quick to point out what a bad idea NJASAP is, but offers no better solution.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Give MM a break. He has not said that IBT or ALPA are what we need. He is only concerned with the fragmentation of labor in general. NJASAP is not his enemy.He just hope we do not bury our heads in the sand and ignore the rest of the world. It seems to me that Griz agrees with him on this.

As much as I despise unions in aviation, I made the statement a long time ago that fragmenting the labor group was going to do nothing but hurt the NJ pilots in the long run and the efforts of the FLOPS pilots in the short run.

That statement was made based on basic business principals and nothing more. The only thing to be gained is $$ locally, but in the process you are giving up the strength that only the national affiliation can provide.

I still hate to see a union on the property, but at the same time, splitting off when the ecomomy is so fragile and the industy is taking a step back seems ludicrous.