Logbook Lies

[Lear70]

That's all well and good if you come from a 121 or 135 background.

But no one "signs" for planes in the 91 world.

Sure they do.

When I was flying for Flexjet we operated ALL flights Part 91.

We then had a designated Captain who signed the logbook on every flight. Many of our SIC's would log PIC time on every leg they flew. I was guilty of that and, once I learned better, actually had to start another logbook and re-log all of my time at Flexjet to get the times right.

Bottom line: if you're flying an aircraft that requires two pilots, even Part 91, one of you should be logging PIC, the other SIC. If you're not, be prepared to answer some pretty tough questions on an interview. We're not trying to be jerks about it, just trying to save you some BIG problems.

Most PROFESSIONAL companies (FedEx, SWA) don't like Part 61.51 PIC time (sole manipulator of the controls) if you weren't, at that time, the designated Captain for whatever company you were working for. I'll cost you a job (and any future interviews there) some day if you're not careful.

 

[ultrarunner]

Sure they do.

When I was flying for Flexjet we operated ALL flights Part 91.

Share programs are the exception. I highly doubt the majority of smaller 91 companies, operating a single aircraft actually "designate" a captain.

I manage such a two-pilot department. And I don't.

 

[Lear70]

Share programs are the exception. I highly doubt the majority of smaller 91 companies, operating a single aircraft actually "designate" a captain.

I manage such a two-pilot department. And I don't.

That's highly interesting.

Almost every single corporate job posting I see on planejobs or climbto350 ALWAYS list whether they're hiring for a Captain position or First Officer / Copilot position.

If you're hired on as such, I would submit that you KNOW you're not the designated PIC.

Your operation, of course, is probably an exception where EVERYONE is hired as a Co-Captain or some such thing, which I find to compromise safety. SOMEONE has to be the final word in an emergency. In a perfect world, both pilots would agree on the safest course of action, but we all know that sometimes that doesn't happen. So who is the final say in your aircraft?

 

[ultrarunner]

Your operation, of course, is probably an exception where EVERYONE is hired as a Co-Captain or some such thing, which I find to compromise safety.

I disagee, and our safety record speaks for itself.

SOMEONE has to be the final word in an emergency....So who is the final say in your aircraft?

The PF

 

[JediNein]

We are all guilty of adding the .5 to actual or total time.

Ummm, no. The lax rules regarding pilots self-certifying their logbooks remain because pilots are not all guilty of forging entries. Most resent the accusation. If you commit fraud in your logbook, you are in a lonely and vile minority. There is no rationalization, no glorification, no sympathy, and no tolerance for that in aviation.

Whatever the reward, it becomes hollow when one knows it is not true.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[JediNein]

.....

 

[Lear70]

Originally Posted by Lear70
SOMEONE has to be the final word in an emergency....So who is the final say in your aircraft?


The PF

So the most experienced person isn't making the decisions?

Brilliant.

 

[ultrarunner]

So the most experienced person isn't making the decisions?

Brilliant.

Uhhhh.....well, we have equal experience in corporate/charter, equal experience in airline flying, equal experience in Type....

Lets see.. I think he's behind me in total time by a few hrs. I'll terminate him tomorrow and hire a 500 hr wonder boy, so there is NO confusion and I can thump my chest and have a gear-puller that knows his place. How's that for 'one level of safety' there dickhead?!

Well, folks much smarter than me on this thread..guess I'll eject from it.

see ya!

 

[Lear70]

Uhhhh.....well, we have equal experience in corporate/charter, equal experience in airline flying, equal experience in Type....

Lets see.. I think he's behind me in total time by a few hrs. I'll terminate him tomorrow and hire a 500 hr wonder boy, so there is NO confusion and I can thump my chest and have a gear-puller that knows his place. How's that for 'one level of safety' there dickhead?!

Well, folks much smarter than me on this thread..guess I'll eject from it.

see ya!

Dickhead? I wasn't aware I had insulted you directly but I guess you'd like to start...?

You remind me of the kid on the playground that wants to yell the last insult and runs away so he has the last word. Yeah, that's mature. And you RUN a corporate flight department? There's that pesky safety issue again...

Your childish, sarcastic response is an action that I, IN NO WAY, suggested or even insinuated.

I was asking how making the PF the PIC on that leg but not on the next constitutes a safe environment?

If EVERYONE at your company has exactly the same experience, then perhaps your approach works. I would also, while conceding this point, would suggest that such a crew pairing IS NOT THE NORM IN THE AVIATION WORLD.

You're avoiding the question and attempting to sidestep the issue so again, for the MAJORITY of Corporate operators, how is it somehow OK for 61.51 PIC logging to be an acceptable practice if you are hired as an F/O and someone who was hired as or upgraded to Captain is in the same plane with you?

 

[ultrarunner]

Ok, sorry about the dickhead comment. But I take offense. I feel that I run a very safe flight department and hire the most experienced and best fitting persons I can.

I could have EASILY gone out and hired a gear-puller, NOT typed them, and then, as in your example, there would have been absolutely NO question as to who is the supreme commander. My ego isn't that big and I have no problem sitting next to someone as qualified as me if not more so.

So, you claim I'm not that bright for making the PF the decision maker. Well, I hired accordingly so they have that responsibility. And I sleep well and night knowing that.

But, I will concede that many companies love to hire SIC/FO only. I know these same companies love to give their Captain's titles...like SENIOR Captain, SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CAPTAIN, and all those other chest-thumping titles. IMO, this serves no purpose other than to make sure the FO's know their place. I'm not into that. And if folks claim that my dept. is less safe, well, then so be it.

thanks for listening.