Logbook Lies

[BrickTop]

How many airlines or employers for that matter actually validate logbook entries? I just reviewed my logbook and realized how many errors are inside. We are all guilty of adding the .5 to actual or total time. It just made me think how easy it would be to cook the book, or for that matter just burn a hole in it. In all How many of us are living under a sheet of BS logbook entries, issued an ATP and slipped right through are fellow FAA paperwork pushers. After all the red tape the FAA has put in place they still take flight log entries as the pilots honesty.

 

[EMBPILOT1]

All I can say is that at my UPS interview, the chief pilot interviewing me looked pretty hard at my logbooks. He even had a few minor questions about flight time. I doubt that anyone has a perfect logbook, but you never know who might get a hold of them someday. As far as validate, probably not. Even though your past 121 carrier keeps track of flight time.

 

[BrickTop]

Just thinking primarily of how many CFI's have cooked books. Even a fellow G/A weekend bandit could pencil his way to an ATP certificate.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

It's the obvious lies that get me...

Like the fella who told me with a straight face, "I only have 1000 total, but I have 700 hours actual instrument!"

I laughed so hard I spit up my coffee!

 

[pgcfii2002]

"And 400 hours simulated"

 

[SpyFlysDOTs]

I remember an inspector at RAL FSDO tell a class of CFI's about an ATP applicant that shows up with nearly 500 hrs of Seneca time.
Inspector knew this Seneca was a mud queen at Corona Airport, and knew it rarely flew.
He called the owner and asked how many hrs it had on it and then called in the pilot.
FAA revoked his certificates.
This can and does happen.

 

[BrickTop]

I suppose theres always one to make an example of but im saying fudging a hundred hours by adding 1.0 to every 2hr block could be difficult to track.

 

[DrProc]

I suppose theres always one to make an example of but im saying fudging a hundred hours by adding 1.0 to every 2hr block could be difficult to track.

But not impossible to track. And besides, to get your ATP, you need to have good moral character, according to the regs. In the long run, I would rather have a clean reputation and know that I have flown every hour in my logbook, than to know that I lied and cheated to get ahead in my career.

 

[OPECJet]

You fudge enough, it can show up in the skills.

Mine looks particularly bad... About 3000 TT with 2500 multi and 1800 turbine. Didn't fudge a bit of it, just flew nothing but twins. I've taken my training records to every interview I've been to in case someone called BS.

 

[BlackPilot628]

At CHQ they just looked at the last page of my logbook and wrote down the times.
At Corporate Airlines, they did look through it and ask about me flying the BE58. Just a few simple questions and that was it.

 

[OPECJet]

Can I put that hottie in PGCFII2002's avatar in my logbook?

 

[pgcfii2002]

I don't think she would fit....for obvious reasons.

 

[Country Wild]

BrickTop you figure that at one time everyone has rounded up in their favor, but once you get to certain point ou are no longer building time. When you get to my age you start collecting pocket log books and do yearly summaries. From my expereince and from listening to some of my kids friends I would guess that most of the overstating of the log book, happens with pilots bewtween 250- to 2500 hours. Some folks have been caught, some haven't, but you should never over state your skills and abilities..ie 45 hours multi but showing 125.

 

[No Delay]

Well, I have never fudged any time...

During my first airline interview, the interviewer spent all of about 20 sec. in my logbook. I remember thinking...if I had known it was going to be just a quick glance I would have been sitting her about a year earlier.


On the flipside - I went to do my commercial checkride. Me and another student (who was going for an atp) went together. He had penciled in hundreds and hundreds of hours. Well, he went first for his checkride. They returned about 30 mins later. The examiner sat down, typed out his pink slip, and then handed him his logbook. The examiner said, "You need to throw this crap away. You are not a 1500 hour pilot!"

 

[WhiteCloud]

Everybody that conducts interviews sees a lot of logbooks. It's usually painfully obvious when someone has added significant time to their logbook and their knowledge doesn't match the stated hours or they don't recollect some flights that you know they should. It takes a hell of a lot of lying to come up with enough fake hours to make a difference to an employer on paper. The more extensive the lying the easier it is to detect. I'm sure some guys are good enough to pull it off but for the most part I'd say that it's much better to represent yourself as you really are.

 

[screwed_again]

I remember an inspector at RAL FSDO tell a class of CFI's about an ATP applicant that shows up with nearly 500 hrs of Seneca time.
Inspector knew this Seneca was a mud queen at Corona Airport, and knew it rarely flew.
He called the owner and asked how many hrs it had on it and then called in the pilot.
FAA revoked his certificates.
This can and does happen.

I've heard a hundred of these stories. Even the stories of the guy who logged King Air time that was property of the FAA. When he went for his CFI checkride, the examiner asked him about the King Air time. The applicant was told it belonged to the FAA....whatever.

 

[dash8driver]

at my last company there was a guy who made it all the way to sim. when some of his former associates that he tried to screw found out he was hired at a 121 airline they called the FAA. when the feds reviewed the logbooks they found out that he had logged a whole bunch of time in a plane that had been grounded for months. after he did a gear up landing in this plane, he continued to log time in it while it was grounded.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Do a log book audit and make a line entry with explanantion.

Day+Nite+TT Multi+SE=TT. Instr. = 10%TT and so forth....

 

[Ride Orange]

Ever taken a lie detector test? It's amazing how many things you haven't thought about in years flash before your eyes as soon as a question is asked. Whose to say someday TSA/FAA security regulations won't get to the point that you have to take on at your interview, just like with police/corrections jobs. Not saying it will happen, but if it did can you imagine how easy it would be to get a job if you were one of the only guys who haven't fat fingered your log book. It would weed out a HUGE percentage of job seekers. I guarantee the first question they would ask is: "Have you ever made a fradulent entry in your log book". I would ask it if I were them.

 

[better up here]

ok, i'll be the first to admit it...i lied once...
told her nine when it's only seven.

 

[dueguard1]

Interviewed w/ some guy who had the nerve to have 2000 total, and only been flyng for for about 18 months...plus he had just completed his Comm Multi only three months before the interview......but at the time Pinnacle wasn't scrutinizing the logbooks so heavy.

 

[Lear70]

What, are you KIDDING ME?

Pinnacle doesn't scrutinize ANYTHING if you can pass the written and they like your personality.

Warm bodies, no one seems to understand that yet. We're not adding ANY new aircraft but the last two or three bids have been for 40-50 F/O's EVERY MONTH. You do the math.

As far as falsifying my logbook, there have been times when I've looked back and, for a brief moment, wish I had falsified mine. My buddy and I got calls for JetBlue interviews the first month they were EVER operating. We had flown Lears together, him as my F/O, and we both went other places in the same month. He went to Colgan on the 1900, I went to Express One on the 727.

He flew 1,200 hours in a year and a half and still hadn't upgraded, I flew 600 and had just upgraded to CA. He got the interview, I didn't, all because he had 1,000 hours in an aircraft over 20,000 lbs and I only had 600, even though I had both Lear and 727 PIC experience and he had zero turbine PIC.

Then, two years ago, I interviewed for a direct-entry Corporate 727 Captain position flying basketball teams around out of Chicago. My company had gone T.U. and they had NO PRIA records, so the ONLY proof about my flight times were in my logbooks. I could EASILY have lied and tripled my PIC time from 25 hours a month to 75 hours a month for 7 months which would have given me the 500 hours PIC they needed and I'd be making $125k a year working 14 days a month instead of 70k a year working 18 days a month right now.

Stories like that are enough to tempt ANYONE, but what it all boils down to is your ethics. Do you want to be the kind of person that, deep down, is nothing but a liar? Do you want to look back on your career and know that your LIES are the only thing that got you to where you are? Do you want to be one of those stories of people who get busted back to zero time with no ratings? All but two of the 10 instructors at my flight school got busted sharing time (2 or 3 instructors logging the same student in the same plane). Stupidity or Lack of morality? Which is it for you?

Incidentally, NO ONE has EVER validated my logbooks, and I've interviewed at:

Turboprop Part 135 operator - never opened them
Lear 135 operator - never opened them
Flexjet - never opened them
Express One (727's) - never opened them
United - looked at them for 30 seconds
Pinnacle - looked at them for 30 seconds as well
Southwest - looked at them for 30 seconds and verified three times they needed.
A couple 727 operators hiring direct-entry Captains and some corporate operators - never opened them

Southwest just looked for the specific times they needed, but when you have 6,000 hours and 5 previous flying jobs, it would be a lot more difficult to pick out errors than if you're a 1,500 hour pilot with one or two jobs instructing or flying cxld checks.

Oh, and p.s. 10% IFR and Night is about right for people who haven't flown Part 121 yet. Those times go up to 20% if you're based in the Northeast as a 121 operator. I have about 7,000 total, 1,200 IFR, 1,500 Night, but I flew a lot of night freight, too.

 

[Inconceivable]

Actually R...Lear 70,

You should ask around about the case of David W. in 2001.

Was doing transition training from the saab to the Jet when some new hires in the saab mentioned that ehy had gone to flight school to their instructor who hated him. Turns out that, in 18 months at Express including Saab initial, upgrade, and jet upgrade his total time had incrased by 2100 hours from his application to his system prefernce bid.

Terry asked to see his logbooks and he kept stalling, claiming he couldn't find them--turns out he was using the time to pencil whip them, in time for a suspension hearing. Dumb child brings them, Terry photocopies them and sends him hope. Terry then called Mr. Josephs.

David W. does not hold any FAA certificates today.

Irony: He owns a catering business in TPA and makes more $$$ than he would have at PCL with a lot more security. Who said cheaters never prosper?

 

[Lear70]

Terry asked to see his logbooks and he kept stalling, claiming he couldn't find them--turns out he was using the time to pencil whip them, in time for a suspension hearing. Dumb child brings them, Terry photocopies them and sends him hope. Terry then called Mr. Josephs.

David W. does not hold any FAA certificates today.

Sounds about Terry's speed. Nice guy until you piss him off, then you never see it coming.

Irony: He owns a catering business in TPA and makes more $$$ than he would have at PCL with a lot more security. Who said cheaters never prosper?

Yeah, but he'll always wonder about his lost career and how many years and tens of thousands he spent on flight training just to lose it all.

I could go into Commercial Real Estate with the rest of my family and make $120k to $150k a year, but I'd be working 6 days a week, 12 hours a day to do it. Similar to what Mr. W has going with his catering business - people who own their own food service businesses live, eat, and drink their work. I'm not interested in working that hard, nor losing everything I've spent 15 years building.

 

[T-prop]

I know of a check-airman at a 121 who pencil-whipped his/her 300 hr logbook for a turbine single pilot charter job in order to meet the 135 mins. Passed training, flew there for a year got on with the airline he/she is at now. Good pilot, nice person. I didn't know what to think since it happened 8+ years ago.

It just ain't right.

 

[DoinTime]

Actually R...Lear 70,

You should ask around about the case of David W. in 2001.

Was doing transition training from the saab to the Jet when some new hires in the saab mentioned that ehy had gone to flight school to their instructor who hated him. Turns out that, in 18 months at Express including Saab initial, upgrade, and jet upgrade his total time had incrased by 2100 hours from his application to his system prefernce bid.

Terry asked to see his logbooks and he kept stalling, claiming he couldn't find them--turns out he was using the time to pencil whip them, in time for a suspension hearing. Dumb child brings them, Terry photocopies them and sends him hope. Terry then called Mr. Josephs.

David W. does not hold any FAA certificates today.

Irony: He owns a catering business in TPA and makes more $$$ than he would have at PCL with a lot more security. Who said cheaters never prosper?

Everyone hated "Watchoutski" and his lips were about as loose as a $10 street walker. It was only a matter of time before the truth caught up with him. Sad thing is that even through upgrading in the Saab and the CRJ nobody had a clue his books were cooked until someone ratted him out.

 

[DoinTime]

The FAA's record keeping system relies entirely on honesty. Nothing is safe from the audacity and daring of an individual pilot. One of the best examples is one of Mesaba's ex-chief pilots that pencil whipped his medical certificate for years.

 

[AMANSWORLD]

Cannot believe the lack of integrity, here seriously. This is not something to even discuss on here. IMHO.

 

[WhiteCloud]

Sounds about Terry's speed. Nice guy until you piss him off, then you never see it coming.

It's called backstabbing.

 

[Inconceivable]

Dointime--

actually he was the only person in the entire class of upgrades not to pink on the first go in the sim....That includes Ed's son, Sean "Ann Coulter" P., Tim McVeigh #2, and The "Jumpseat".

come to think of it, that was a pretty f'ed up class....I think everyone but Sean has been fired.