Logbook Lies

[JediNein]

.....

 

[Lear70]

Originally Posted by Lear70
SOMEONE has to be the final word in an emergency....So who is the final say in your aircraft?


The PF

So the most experienced person isn't making the decisions?

Brilliant.

 

[ultrarunner]

So the most experienced person isn't making the decisions?

Brilliant.

Uhhhh.....well, we have equal experience in corporate/charter, equal experience in airline flying, equal experience in Type....

Lets see.. I think he's behind me in total time by a few hrs. I'll terminate him tomorrow and hire a 500 hr wonder boy, so there is NO confusion and I can thump my chest and have a gear-puller that knows his place. How's that for 'one level of safety' there dickhead?!

Well, folks much smarter than me on this thread..guess I'll eject from it.

see ya!

 

[Lear70]

Uhhhh.....well, we have equal experience in corporate/charter, equal experience in airline flying, equal experience in Type....

Lets see.. I think he's behind me in total time by a few hrs. I'll terminate him tomorrow and hire a 500 hr wonder boy, so there is NO confusion and I can thump my chest and have a gear-puller that knows his place. How's that for 'one level of safety' there dickhead?!

Well, folks much smarter than me on this thread..guess I'll eject from it.

see ya!

Dickhead? I wasn't aware I had insulted you directly but I guess you'd like to start...?

You remind me of the kid on the playground that wants to yell the last insult and runs away so he has the last word. Yeah, that's mature. And you RUN a corporate flight department? There's that pesky safety issue again...

Your childish, sarcastic response is an action that I, IN NO WAY, suggested or even insinuated.

I was asking how making the PF the PIC on that leg but not on the next constitutes a safe environment?

If EVERYONE at your company has exactly the same experience, then perhaps your approach works. I would also, while conceding this point, would suggest that such a crew pairing IS NOT THE NORM IN THE AVIATION WORLD.

You're avoiding the question and attempting to sidestep the issue so again, for the MAJORITY of Corporate operators, how is it somehow OK for 61.51 PIC logging to be an acceptable practice if you are hired as an F/O and someone who was hired as or upgraded to Captain is in the same plane with you?

 

[ultrarunner]

Ok, sorry about the dickhead comment. But I take offense. I feel that I run a very safe flight department and hire the most experienced and best fitting persons I can.

I could have EASILY gone out and hired a gear-puller, NOT typed them, and then, as in your example, there would have been absolutely NO question as to who is the supreme commander. My ego isn't that big and I have no problem sitting next to someone as qualified as me if not more so.

So, you claim I'm not that bright for making the PF the decision maker. Well, I hired accordingly so they have that responsibility. And I sleep well and night knowing that.

But, I will concede that many companies love to hire SIC/FO only. I know these same companies love to give their Captain's titles...like SENIOR Captain, SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CAPTAIN, and all those other chest-thumping titles. IMO, this serves no purpose other than to make sure the FO's know their place. I'm not into that. And if folks claim that my dept. is less safe, well, then so be it.

thanks for listening.

 

[COOPERVANE]

I knew some 91 guys would chime in. "But, But, we have ALWAYS logged it that way and we haven'd had a crash yet!" you will say.

I applaud the fact that you havn't hired 500 hour "gear pullers" and your safety level has been enhanced because of that. Congratulations! your passengers' safety is important to you. It's a shame more flight departments don't practice this.

But I have seen part 91 ops that encourage their 500 hour wonders to log PIC if they have a type. Not a good practice

I don't have a problem with Co-captains, but ONE pilot should sit in the left seat and log PIC, the other in the right as SIC. Every leg. Switch if you want, but you BOTH CAN'T LEGALLY log PIC.

I can log every hour I have as 777 time if I want to. I'd just better be able to back it up. There is the problem

 

[hotwing]

Most large fortune 10 companies have captain - captain flight depts. They switch legs if they want and they are equal... Then there are those that are stuck in the 50s... See XOM, Chevron, etc...

 

[Corona]

Ummm, no. The lax rules regarding pilots self-certifying their logbooks remain because pilots are not all guilty of forging entries. Most resent the accusation. If you commit fraud in your logbook, you are in a lonely and vile minority. There is no rationalization, no glorification, no sympathy, and no tolerance for that in aviation.

Whatever the reward, it becomes hollow when one knows it is not true.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

What he said.

C

 

[Tyro]

Comments/arguments boil down into two fundamental schools of thought:

• What are the odds of getting caught/consequences (perhaps in a hypothetical),

• Who cares if you get caught or not, - you yourself will know, and that is punishment enough.

Wonder which would make a better doc. I reckon, hypothetically, a doctor could find an easy shortcut way through all that schooling and training, with crib-notes and test-answers and plagiarizing and such. Not sure I’d wanna go to one.

Could such a doc be trusted?

Yah I know, I know – big difference between pilots and docs. No comparison. Or logging a couple extra points vs. getting the med exam answers ahead of time.

Right?

 

[QXpeon]

I remember an inspector at RAL FSDO tell a class of CFI's about an ATP applicant that shows up with nearly 500 hrs of Seneca time.
Inspector knew this Seneca was a mud queen at Corona Airport, and knew it rarely flew.
He called the owner and asked how many hrs it had on it and then called in the pilot.
FAA revoked his certificates.
This can and does happen.

That guy was an idiot and he deserved it for being so damm careless. If you're going to do $hit like that do it right.

 

[Lear70]

That guy was an idiot and he deserved it for being so damm careless. If you're going to do $hit like that do it right.

Oh God... here we go.

 

[DeucesWild]

Originally Posted by Lear70

Incidentally, NO ONE has EVER validated my logbooks, and I've interviewed at:

Turboprop Part 135 operator - never opened them
Lear 135 operator - never opened them
Flexjet - never opened them
Express One (727's) - never opened them
United - looked at them for 30 seconds
Pinnacle - looked at them for 30 seconds as well
Southwest - looked at them for 30 seconds and verified three times they needed.
A couple 727 operators hiring direct-entry Captains and some corporate operators - never opened them

Southwest just looked for the specific times they needed, but when you have 6,000 hours and 5 previous flying jobs, it would be a lot more difficult to pick out errors than if you're a 1,500 hour pilot with one or two jobs instructing or flying cxld checks.

Oh, and p.s. 10% IFR and Night is about right for people who haven't flown Part 121 yet. Those times go up to 20% if you're based in the Northeast as a 121 operator. I have about 7,000 total, 1,200 IFR, 1,500 Night, but I flew a lot of night freight, too.

Maybe 30 seconds was all it took to validate your logbooks. Your IFR time is way too high for the amount of total time you have. Were you logging Actual Instrument time when you were the non-flying pilot? I fly for a major and have also been based in the northeast before and my IFR time is less than 10% of my total.

Did you get a job offer from United or Southwest? Maybe they had already decided they weren't going to offer you the job, and spending alot of time in your logbooks was a waste of their time.

 

[aerobaticspilot]

I know some feds who do some check outs who could pick out some false flight time with out even going into it to deep. You get caught lieing about your flight time you might wanna look for a differnt career. How can you feel good about yourself knowing the only way you got that job or certifacte by lieing.

 

[Sim Sweat]

I fly for a major and have also been based in the northeast before and my IFR time is less than 10% of my total.

Not to pick nits here, but keep in mind that there are, or were, 121 jobs especially in the northeast where you never got above 10,000. I flew for a regional and we spent a whole buttload of time in the goo ... the guys in other company aircraft types were always above it in the clear.

Mine shakes out to almost 20% too.

 

[DeucesWild]

Originally posted by Lear70

Incidentally, NO ONE has EVER validated my logbooks, and I've interviewed at:

Turboprop Part 135 operator - never opened them
Lear 135 operator - never opened them
Flexjet - never opened them
Express One (727's) - never opened them
United - looked at them for 30 seconds
Pinnacle - looked at them for 30 seconds as well
Southwest - looked at them for 30 seconds and verified three times they needed.
A couple 727 operators hiring direct-entry Captains and some corporate operators - never opened them

Southwest just looked for the specific times they needed, but when you have 6,000 hours and 5 previous flying jobs, it would be a lot more difficult to pick out errors than if you're a 1,500 hour pilot with one or two jobs instructing or flying cxld checks.

Oh, and p.s. 10% IFR and Night is about right for people who haven't flown Part 121 yet. Those times go up to 20% if you're based in the Northeast as a 121 operator. I have about 7,000 total, 1,200 IFR, 1,500 Night, but I flew a lot of night freight, too.

Part 121 flying is multiple crewmembers. Only the pilot flying (sole manipulator of the controls) can log Actual Instrument. Thus, Actual Instrument time can only be logged every other leg, while Total Time is obviously logged for both legs. Thus, the percentage of Actual Instument time logged in relation to TT should go DOWN when doing 121 flying.

You say you flew alot of night freight. Why didn't you log it???