Legacy Bashfest - Bring it on!

[JetBlast2000]

Or maybe I misunderstood the thread… and its really LegacyDRIVER bashfest….?

 

[JetPilot500]

I guess you can fly INTERNATIONAL in a WSCoD.....

http://www.avcrew.com/jobs/pilots/jobs.htm#0103

Legacy Captain (China) 1/03

Macau-based (China) flight department is seeking a EMB-145BJ (Legacy) Captain to operate worldwide. Ideal candidate will have an FAA ATP, First Class medical certificate, EMB-145 type rating, 5000 hours total time, 100 hours in type, extensive corporate and international experience, and a willingness to relocate overseas. We offer an attractive compensation package and the opportunity to work with other high-caliber professionals in one of Asia's top flight departments. If you meet the above qualifications and would like to join our team of professionals, please email your complete resume to [email protected]. Don't forget to mention AvCrew.com when applying.

 

[JetPilot500]

The average Corporate Jet leg (according to at least SOME surveys any way--I am sure GV has a different set of them) is 1200-1500 NM. So, we'll double that for the G-String and add some. The Legacy does the same thing. You know, most US Corporate jets do the bulk of their flying here in the States, Canada, and Mexico. The Legacy will do all of them just fine.

Last time I looked at our Falcon 900EX numbers, I think our average leg is like 2.3 hours. However, we use the aircraft to go to Asia, Europe, South America and South Africa MANY times per year. So you could say that our average leg is 1,000 miles. But we also need an airplane that can do 4000+ miles on a regular basis.

And if one wants to go to Tokyo from LA like my boss does from time to time, he goes FIRST CLASS on a 747. It's cheaper than a G-V can ever be....

Yes, but they why do you have a corporate aircraft? Another thing to consider is this. You may need to make other stops in the region you are in. We don't usually go to Bejing and then back to the US. Many times, we go to Beijing, then to Kuala Lumpur, Hong Kong, Tokyo and Seoul. Just try and fly the airlines. I suppose if you don't mind sitting next to a crate of chickens on China Eastern Airlines, then it's not so bad. Plus, even if you did do it on the airlines, you might not like your schedule options, forcing you to spend several more days in Asia than you need.

In fact, there was one recent trip that we didn't have a 900EX available. The passengers flew UAL to Beijing. We dead-headed a Falcon 50EX up there to meet the passengers in Beijing. Then we flew to approximately 10 other places in Asia, finally dropping off the passengers in Beijing to pick up their UAL flight. The 50EX dead-headed back to the US. All this was done because the passengers didn't want to make 2 fuel stops (in an aircraft with 3100 Miles range), and they ALSO didn't want to ride on any of the Asian airlines for safety and security reasons.

Just another take.

JetPilot500

 

[GVFlyer]

WSCoD

Well, no. (responding to a question asking if the Legacy compared directly to the Gulfstream)

But it does come close… It also costs almost half as much and operates at a substantial savings per hour…

The IAI G200 is the jet in the Gulfstream lineup that would be the logical choice to compare to the Legacy. It cost $21.43 million to acquire, has an Mmo of M 0.85 and flys 3,050 nm at M 0.80 or 3,400 at M 0.75. DOC for the Galaxy is $1,348 hr as opposed to $1,615 hr for the WSCoD.

If you insist on a comparison with a large cabin Gulfstream, you don't have to go to the top of the line to pick a fight. The G350 will humble the Legacy without breaking a sweat.

G350 Specifications v. Legacy - 8 passengers, ISA, NBAA IFR Fuel Reserves

Price: $27.5 million (or $6.35 m more than than the Legacy's $21.15m)

Mmo: M 0.88 (Legacy M 0.80)

Range: LRC - 3,800 nm @ Mach 0.80 or 459 kts.( Legacy - 3,220 nm @ M 0.74 or 425 kts.)

Range, High Speed Cruise - 3,200 nm @ m 0.85 or 488 kts.(Legacy - 2,950 @M 0.78 or 448 kts.)

Thrust: Rolls-Royce Tay Mark 611-8C - 13,850 lbs (Legacy - AE 3007 A1E- 7,953 lbs)

TBO: 12,000 hours (Legacy -Unk.)

Initial Altitude: FL410 (Legacy FL370)

T/O Dist. MGTOW: 5,050 ft. (Legacy - 5,770 ft.)

Ldg Dist. MLW: 3,260 ft @ 66,000lbs (Legacy - 2,683 ft.)

Maximum Altitude: FL450 (Legacy FL390, currently in developmental test for FL410)

Cabin Altitude: 6,000 ft @ FL450 (Legacy - 8,800 ft @ FL410)

Max Ramp WT: 71,300 lbs (Legacy - 49,758 lbs)

Max Payload: 6,300 lbs (Legacy - 5,291 lbs)

Max Payload Full Fuel: 2,600 lbs (Legacy - 1,605)

Fuel 26,000 lbs. (Legacy - 18,170lbs)

Cabin Dimensions:45'1" X 6'2" X 7'4" (Legacy 43 X 5'10" 6'11")

DOC $1,731 / hr (Legacy $1,615)

Although the Legacy is 8% per hour less expensive to operate than the Gulfstream, the G350 is 15% faster than the WSCoD on a 3200 nm trip, thereby making the G350 7% more efficient than the Legacy: G350 trip cost $11358.00 - Legacy trip cost:$12,172.17. An added plus is that you will arrive at your destination at least 58 minutes sooner.

You can also count on the G350 to retain 85-90% of it's original value at resale; how is the Legacy doing on the used market?

GV

 

[mmmdonut]

.....please......let.....this.....thread.....die........

 

[SkyGirl]

.....please......let.....this.....thread.....die........

Obviously, there are some pilots who enjoy reading and participating in this thread or it would not be so long lived. Why not just ignore it if you don't like it?

-SkyGirl-

 

[banned username 2]

The IAI G200 is the jet in the Gulfstream lineup that would be the logical choice to compare to the Legacy. It cost $21.43 million to acquire, has an Mmo of M 0.85 and flys 3,050 nm at M 0.80 or 3,400 at M 0.75. DOC for the Galaxy is $1,348 hr as opposed to $1,615 hr for the WSCoD.

If you insist on a comparison with a large cabin Gulfstream, you don't have to go to the top of the line to pick a fight. The G350 will humble the Legacy without breaking a sweat.

G350 Specifications v. Legacy - 8 passengers, ISA, NBAA IFR Fuel Reserves

Price: $27.5 million (or $6.35 m more than than the Legacy's $21.15m)

Mmo: M 0.88 (Legacy M 0.80)

Range: LRC - 3,800 nm @ Mach 0.80 or 459 kts.( Legacy - 3,220 nm @ M 0.74 or 425 kts.)

Range, High Speed Cruise - 3,200 nm @ m 0.85 or 488 kts.(Legacy - 2,950 @M 0.78 or 448 kts.)

Thrust: Rolls-Royce Tay Mark 611-8C - 13,850 lbs (Legacy - AE 3007 A1E- 7,953 lbs)

TBO: 12,000 hours (Legacy -Unk.)

Initial Altitude: FL410 (Legacy FL370)

T/O Dist. MGTOW: 5,050 ft. (Legacy - 5,770 ft.)

Ldg Dist. MLW: 3,260 ft @ 66,000lbs (Legacy - 2,683 ft.)

Maximum Altitude: FL450 (Legacy FL390, currently in developmental test for FL410)

Cabin Altitude: 6,000 ft @ FL450 (Legacy - 8,800 ft @ FL410)

Max Ramp WT: 71,300 lbs (Legacy - 49,758 lbs)

Max Payload: 6,300 lbs (Legacy - 5,291 lbs)

Max Payload Full Fuel: 2,600 lbs (Legacy - 1,605)

Fuel 26,000 lbs. (Legacy - 18,170lbs)

Cabin Dimensions:45'1" X 6'2" X 7'4" (Legacy 43 X 5'10" X 6'11")

DOC $1,731 / hr (Legacy $1,615)

Although the Legacy is 8% per hour less expensive to operate than the Gulfstream, the G350 is 15% faster than the WSCoD on a 3200 nm trip, thereby making the G350 7% more efficient than the Legacy: G350 trip cost $11358.00 - Legacy trip cost:$12,172.17. An added plus is that you will arrive at your destination at least 58 minutes sooner.

You can also count on the G350 to retain 85-90% of it's original value at resale; how is the Legacy doing on the used market?

GV

Well that pretty much sums it up... The Gulfstream is a real contender in the International Corporate Aircraft market and the Legacy is still a WSofD...

I took the liberty of highlighting in RED (for WSofDDriver a.k.a. Skull-One) some of the finer, more interesting points of GVFlyer's post...

WSofD achieves it's max range at a measly M0.74
WSofD "High Speed Cruise" is a measly M0.78
WSofD can only go up to FL390 (yeah, yeah, new software... we know)
WSofD needs nearly 6,000 ft of runway for max range (over 700 ft more than G-350)
WSofD has an 8,800 ft cabin at FL410, have you ever spent 8 hours at an 8,800 ft cabin? Talk about fatigue! The New Global Express is offering a 4,500ft cabin at FL450... Why??? Because it makes a serious difference...
WSofD has a max payload (with full fuel) of 1,000 lbs (5 passengers) LESS than the G-350... That "Big" cabin but yet you can't take everyone with!
WSofD actually has a SMALLER cabin than the G-350...
WSofD has a higher trip cost than the G-350...

I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to see you are comparing apples to oranges... With your flawed logic, everyone should buy a CitationJet and make as many fuel stops as needed, because they are far cheaper than the WSofD and much cheaper to operate...

 

[mmmdonut]

Obviously, there are some pilots who enjoy reading and participating in this thread or it would not be so long lived. Why not just ignore it if you don't like it?

-SkyGirl-

stfu.... get back into the kitchen and leave the plane talk to men

 

[banned username 2]

stfu.... get back into the kitchen and leave the plane talk to men

Ah Yes... This lovely post gets Mr. Donut Hole into the box for 5 days...

Totally uncalled for...

 

[fokkerjet]

I don't want to see this thread die, but....... responding with FACTS to this guy is pointless, in all of his responses he will never address anything with fact, only his personal opinion or some lame excuse like he left the keys to the jet at home and he can't get to the AFM....Personally, this WSofD is a Junglejet Gulfstream knockoff with a cheap Falcon interior. It does its intended mission pretty well, I assume; confusing people with a little bit of money and a huge ego into thinking that they will impress people by showing up in one of these barbie jets, but in reality, all you're really getting from people is "what the fuk is that thing? Dude I thought you were doing so much better than that!"

 

[JetBlast2000]

G350 Specifications v. Legacy - 8 passengers, ISA, NBAA IFR Fuel Reserves
GV

While I don’t doubt most of your numbers, a previous post I made (#368) has trip numbers that don’t seem to add up. Any comment?
I’ve not been able to find where it says the Legacy cannot climb to FL390 direct.

The fuel load is actually 18328lbs after s/n 625

The A1E engine produces 8810lbs

Also, based on the numbers in your post, the G350 is 8% faster and the 3200nm trip would be completed about 32 min faster…

I took the liberty of highlighting in RED (for WSofDDriver a.k.a. Skull-One) some of the finer, more interesting points of GVFlyer's post...

You guys are relentless… Not that he doesn’t deserve it…


Can we stop, choose sides again and start over?




.

 

[FracCapt]

WSofD achieves it's max range at a measly M0.74
WSofD "High Speed Cruise" is a measly M0.78
WSofD can only go up to FL390 (yeah, yeah, new software... we know)
WSofD needs nearly 6,000 ft of runway for max range (over 700 ft more than G-350)
WSofD has an 8,800 ft cabin at FL410, have you ever spent 8 hours at an 8,800 ft cabin? Talk about fatigue! The New Global Express is offering a 4,500ft cabin at FL450... Why??? Because it makes a serious difference...
WSofD has a max payload (with full fuel) of 1,000 lbs (5 passengers) LESS than the G-350... That "Big" cabin but yet you can't take everyone with!
WSofD actually has a SMALLER cabin than the G-350...
WSofD has a higher trip cost than the G-350...

But....but....but....the NEW Legacy OUTPERFORMS the book numbers in every regard!

 

[suen1843]

The Subaru Legacy is a crossbreed car that's been designed to meet the needs and desires of today's buyers. It was created to appeal to those people who want the ruggedness and AWD abilities of a Sport-Ute but who do not want the poor ride, bad gas mileage, and large step-up of a normal Sport-Ute. The car features AWD (type varies with transmission), aggressive looks, more ground clearance than a normal passenger car, and a large interior space. It also gets over 25 MPG on the highway and rides more like a sport sedan than anything else. It can also outperform a Sport-Ute in many accident-avoidance and bad-weather manouvers, and independent testing by IMSA has shown that it is even better on bad terrain than other compact Sport-Utes.

I think all the Mercedes and Rolls owners will be switching to the Legacy pretty soon.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I guess you can fly INTERNATIONAL in a WSCoD.....

http://www.avcrew.com/jobs/pilots/jobs.htm#0103

Legacy Captain (China) 1/03

Macau-based (China) flight department is seeking a EMB-145BJ (Legacy) Captain to operate worldwide. Ideal candidate will have an FAA ATP, First Class medical certificate, EMB-145 type rating, 5000 hours total time, 100 hours in type, extensive corporate and international experience, and a willingness to relocate overseas. We offer an attractive compensation package and the opportunity to work with other high-caliber professionals in one of Asia's top flight departments. If you meet the above qualifications and would like to join our team of professionals, please email your complete resume to [email protected]. Don't forget to mention AvCrew.com when applying.

NO WAY JP500...

they folded up that planes wings and shipped the whole POS via FED-EX in a big crate in an MD11.

If it tried to fly from $hithole, Brazil to Macau at .43 mach (long range cruise) it would still be enroute after 3.5 years (at FL 390 - software) and heading for its 23rd fuel stop somewhere near Guam!!!

Legacy baby....there IS no substitute.


...

 

[English]

OMG I can't stop laughing...WSCoD...

gulfstream 200, I think your post belongs on the top ten funniest posts on flightinfo.

 

[JetBlast2000]

GVFlyer[/b]] G350 Specifications v. Legacy - 8 passengers, ISA, NBAA IFR Fuel Reserves
GV

I also come up with max cruise of M.76 at 234 Kts FL390...

Do you have a computer program you run the numbers in?

 

[banned username 2]

NO WAY JP500...

they folded up that planes wings and shipped the whole POS via FED-EX in a big crate in an MD11.

If you tried to fly the WSofD on any real International missions you would most certainly be "Doomed"...

You know, there is a much cheaper way to get to your international destinations (since WSofDDriver, i.e. Skull-One) is so concerned about cost... Perhaps you could jam your boss into a FedEx box and put a lable on it... Watch out so he doesn't get a nasty papercut!

http://www.fedex.com/us/about/advertising/tvads/dramawm.html?link=4

 

[Gulfstream 200]

If you tried to fly the WSofD on any real International missions you would most certainly be "Doomed"...

You know, there is a much cheaper way to get to your international destinations (since WSofDDriver, i.e. Skull-One) is so concerned about cost... Perhaps you could jam your boss into a FedEx box and put a lable on it... Watch out so he doesn't get a nasty papercut!

http://www.fedex.com/us/about/advertising/tvads/dramawm.html?link=4

Awwwww, thanks Capt...

now instead of flying G212 in a comfy bizjet we will be drop shipping all our CEO's to China - and you and I will be unemployed - knocking on the door at XYZ regional hoping to fly a WSofD for $9/hr...

thanks a lot...

say it with me Capt....."Newark-Cleveland-Newark-Cleveland-Newark-Cleveland-Newark...."

.

 

[banned username 2]

Awwwww, thanks Capt...

now instead of flying G212 we will be drop shipping all our CEO's to China - and you and I will be knocking on the door at XYZ regional hoping to fly a WSofD for $9/hr...

thanks a lot...

say it with me....."Newark-Cleveland-Newark-Cleveland-Newark-Cleveland-Newark...."

.

Then we could be just like Skull-One... uh, I mean WSofDDriver... uh, I mean LagacyDriver... uh... oh forget it... Is Truckmasters hiring???

 

[GVFlyer]

While I don’t doubt most of your numbers, a previous post I made (#368) has trip numbers that don’t seem to add up. Any comment?

Yes, in post #368 which you quoted, FokkerJet accurately quoted performance numbers for the $43 million GV's which his company operates. My performance numbers were for the $27.5 million G350.

I’ve not been able to find where it says the Legacy cannot climb to FL390 direct.

Because Gulfstream does not consider the Legacy to be a corporate jet, Performance Engineering has not done a competitive analysis on it. Subsequently, the performance I quoted is from Conklin & DeDecker Fall 2004. If you go to the Legacy web site their performance tab shows the Legacy going directly to FL390 then stepping up to FL410 after slightly more than 2 hours. As this is not yet a reality, I chose to go with proven data.

The fuel load is actually 18328lbs after s/n 625

Noted, the Legacy carries 158 lbs more fuel than recorded by C&D. The process for adding additional fuel, however, is questionable. Embraer has been squirreling away fuel in every available nook and cranny of the fuselage. All Gulfstream fuel is located in the wings, requires no fuel management and does not offer the risks associated with multiple fuselage fuel tanks.

The A1E engine produces 8810lbs

Again the data I quoted was from the most current edition of Conklin & DeDecker. I can find references giving the A1E as little as 7105 lbs of thrust; the Embraer Legacy website shows the identical 7,953 lbs of thrust that I quoted:

http://www.legacybyembraer.com/english/content/executive/engine.asp

Also, based on the numbers in your post, the G350 is 8% faster and the 3200nm trip would be completed about 32 min faster…

If the Legacy could fly 3200 nm at M 0.78 the G350 would be only 35 minutes quicker. But, it can't; in order to fly 3,200 nm the Legacy must do it at M 0.74. The G350 can fly 3,200 nm at M 0.85. Thus, M 0.74 X 1.15 (15%)= M 0.851, the G350's High Speed Cruise . Try it yourself.

To simplify: Legacy - 3200 nm / 424.575 kts (M 0.74) = 7 hours 32.2 minutes
G350 - 3200 nm / 487.695 kts (M 0.85) = 6 hours 33.7 minutes
The difference is 58.5 minutes.

If you were going West the difference would be greater as the G350 would be above the winds at FL450.

Regards,

GV

 

[CatYaaak]

[/font]

If you were going West the difference would be greater as the G350 would be above the winds at FL450.

Regards,

GV

WSCoDDriver doesn't know about this "above the winds" thing that one can enjoy operating up in the 40's. Or for that matter, the "above the turbulence" thing. Or the "above the weather" thing. You see, in his vast experience as a regional puke doing the "Newark the Cleveland thing", he's never been up there.

And since he's never been there (and oh shall we count all the other ways too?), he can't see how this could POSSIBLY be important, nor thinks his boss or (once again drawing upon his vast corporate experience)......indeed anyone's boss or Board, should factor this type of Flexibility/Comfort/Efficiency "tomfoolery into their aircraft procurement decisions.

Yes indeed, undoubtedly he can "enlighten" us, because the years he spent in the airline womb behind that locked cockpit door (where "Pax Comfort and Convenience" falls somewhere about #10 on the priority list and Mexico is considered "international) has leapfrogged him ahead in the arena of corporate aircraft knowledge.

Why, he's complely unfettered by an even fair-to-middlin' background of actual corporate flying experience that chains the rest of us down, and his utter lack of knowledge about aircraft already fulfilling the role that his woodie-producing WSCoD does keeps his viewpoint fresh and untainted! Best of all, his airline mentality brings to us not only the novel idea that "lower and slower is better", but also the piercing insight that you can best serve the company that pays your salary by having your fellow employees-pax arrive at their destination later....and more fatigued!

Dammnation! If only I'd learned long ago that there's no difference between revenue-flying bargain-hunting flip-flopped strangers... where you can tell them to sit down, shut up and "just be happy we're getting you there as cheaply as possible"... and the execs, corportations, etc, who shell out millions to buy what essentially amounts to transportation flexibility and time savings! Jaysus WSCoD Driver, you oughta be a consultant!

Of course, nothing can do all this....and soooo much more....better than a Yak.

 

[JetPilot500]

If you tried to fly the WSofD on any real International missions you would most certainly be "Doomed"...

[heard in the distance behind you] Dooooomed!

 

[banned username 2]

To simplify: Legacy - 3200 nm / 424.575 kts (M 0.74) = 7 hours 32.2 minutes

Oh say it isn't so!!!

I took a Legacy for 9 hours just to see if it could be done. We had enough gas to tool around longer if we wanted.

WSofDDriver claims he (and his expert airmanship) can keep the WSofD aloft for over 9 hours and still have plenty of fuel to "tool around longer if we wanted"...

So you're a Test Pilot now too??? Since Embraer (yes, the guys who built the WSofD, who would know it best) claims the WSofD has about 7+32 range (3,200 NM at Mach 0.74 mind you) you decided to see if you could keep "The Can" aloft for 9+ hours??? Hey folks, sounds like we have us a "cowboy" here...

The irony of this entire thread is the WSofD would have NEVER received this much negative attention had it not been for our friend LegacyDriver... uh... WSofDDriver... uh... Skull-One... or whatever he calls himself today... He came looking for a fight and has had his a$$ handed to him repeatedly with hard, cold facts... The only thing he comes back with are his personal opinions... Even the manufactures data on their marketing web site contradicts what WSofDDriver is claiming... But yet somehow, someway, he thinks he is right...

 

[LegacyDriver]

Falcon you are obviously infatuated with Skull-One. I think you need to see a shrink.

 

[banned username 2]

Falcon you are obviously infatuated with Skull-One. I think you need to see a shrink.

Check the e-mail address you registered with, I think you'll understand...

 

[suen1843]

Skull has been 'outed'

 

[JetBlast2000]

GV
The book number I have in front of me are slightly different than those you quoted from Conklin & DeDecker. And I’m not sure why Embraer’s web site is not updated. I suppose it’s just a low priority. If you’re serious about getting a Legacy, you’re probably going to talk to a sales rep anyway…But thanks for your replies.

Since I’m new to the a/c, I’ll have to get back to you with some real world number. However, as others have said the a/c is getting a bashing. From what I’ve seen so far, it’s a great a/c. I can only compare the Legacy to my mechanic days working on a Challenger 601 and Lears. I have spoken with some of the Flight Options guys who have some time in the a/c, and they have good things to say about the a/c.

But stay tuned; I’ll try to give you all an update in a few weeks or so…

 

[CatYaaak]

Since I’m new to the a/c, I’ll have to get back to you with some real world number. However, as others have said the a/c is getting a bashing. From what I’ve seen so far, it’s a great a/c. I can only compare the Legacy to my mechanic days working on a Challenger 601 and Lears. I have spoken with some of the Flight Options guys who have some time in the a/c, and they have good things to say about the a/c.

But stay toned; I’ll try to give you all an update in a few weeks or so…

Oh please don't be another guy who's lost his jet-virginity to a WSCoD and is now going to tell us how she's the best girl in the world to take for a ride. WSCoDDriver's beer-goggles on the subject are so thick he doesn't realize that his Beauty queen-of-airplanes is really more akin to a presenting mandrill.

"Friends don't let friends drive Legacys"

 

[JetBlast2000]

Oh please don't be another guy who's lost his jet-virginity to a WSCoD and is now going to tell us how she's the best girl in the world to take for a ride. WSCoDDriver's beer-goggles on the subject are so thick he doesn't realize that his Beauty queen-of-airplanes is really more akin to a presenting mandrill.

I don’t think I claimed it was the best ever… If you gotta get your cherry popped, it’s as good a plane as any.

"Friends don't let friends drive Legacys"

lol - You should have seen some of the a/c I’ve flown (135 Cargo). This WSCoD is ions better than the other WSCoD's I’ve flow…

 

[CatYaaak]

I don’t think I claimed it was the best ever… If you gotta get your cherry popped, it’s as good a plane as any.
QUOTE]

Indeed you didn't, and I suppose it is. Another good thing...as an A&P you won't be trying to tell us how an aircraft "never breaks" and that a short manufacturer's warranty is a reflection of this.