Latest at Flexjet?

[Praetorian]

So another hypothetical.

CAB (or whatever it's called now): We want more bases, and better first and last day rules.

I think it's so funny you think this "CAB" of yours is going to bargain on your behalf.:laugh:

Oh, and with a first contract it is all take, since you have nothing your management can't take away at the stroke of an email now.

 

[Nolife]

Nolife, I think we agree. But I am pointing out my belief that some guys think it WOULD BE all take and no give if there was a union. If mgmt and employees work together, with or without a union, the company is better off. Right now, there seems to be sentiment that Flex mgmt is not working with the employees. If that sentiment grows, perhaps a union drive will be successful in the future and the seat at the table will be forced upon management.

In my opinion, Management would be wise to give the employees a real voice at the table - to strengthen the company, expand the business, and perhaps bring back some of the 85 sooner rather than later.

I agree with you however I do want more bases so lets form a union.:beer:

 

[netjetwife]

You miss the point of unionizing. It not," I want more bases so lets form a union." The point is to have a seat at the table that management has to respect. I took the liberty of highlighting that because it's spot on! Of course it's a give and take but right now its all take and no give with respect to a few details of the working conditions. And isn't likely too change without the pilots taking the initiative, unfortunately.

BTW... I talked to an options guys last week and he said since the contract was signed management/labor relations have been good.

NJA folks saw the same thing start happening in 2005, with steady progress after the contract was signed. It all goes back to RESPECT, but I don't think it's a matter of having to. It is just a natural by-product of standing up for your rights, showing that you have other skills (such as negotiating) aside from flying the planes, and demonstrating your talent at organizing big projects like a card drive. And that's just the beginning. If you end up with contract directed joint committees then your pilotgroup's abilities can really shine! You can have the reward of directly participating in the projects, programs, decisions etc that affect your career and family life. And enjoy the respect that comes from working with the company as partners.

Regardless of the path you guys choose, I wish you and your families well.
NJW

 

[Dooker]

NJA folks saw the same thing start happening in 2005, with steady progress after the contract was signed. It all goes back to RESPECT, but I don't think it's a matter of having to. It is just a natural by-product of standing up for your rights, showing that you have other skills (such as negotiating) aside from flying the planes, and demonstrating your talent at organizing big projects like a card drive. And that's just the beginning. If you end up with contract directed joint committees then your pilotgroup's abilities can really shine! You can have the reward of directly participating in the projects, programs, decisions etc that affect your career and family life. And enjoy the respect that comes from working with the company as partners.

Regardless of the path you guys choose, I wish you and your families well.
NJW

That all sounds great, but so much work. Is there like a website or an app or something where we can just fill in all the junk we want and then just submit it and then it forms a union for us? Maybe something like Turbotax, except for unions?

If there isn't something like that then somebody should make one. That'd be killer.

 

[netjetwife]

Well unfortunately it's not that easy... But rest assured there are pilots w/leadership skills who will answer when the call goes out. After all we're talking about a group of professionals who are widely viewed as problem solvers with a well-deserved reputation for facing challenges head-on. That further explains why management comes to respect an organized pilotgroup and finds that it is, indeed, not only entirely possible to form a good working relationship with the pilots---but more advantageous to all involved in the long run.

 

[ArtVandalay]

This is a dead pig. Until the top-feeders are gone, there will be no union at flex. The only thing the union would do for us is job protection because I wouldn't see us getting anything better than what we have now as far as other compensations goes. Job protection is huge but, I just don't see it happening. I think if the union had sent us to a vote the last time it was hot and heavy, I think it would have passed but, the union refused to accept a vote until there was a certain percentage. I think that was our last chance of getting one in; however, flexjet has what 650 employees? and the pilot group is roughly 400 of that! That is a LOT of power we could have.

 

[netjetwife]

The reason for the percentage requirement in the past is that a % of the pilotgroup had to vote as a threshold...and all those he did not vote were automatically counted as NO votes. If there was no chance of it passing then funds and man hours weren't spent to send it out. That meant the deck was stacked against the organizing pilots.

That law was recently changed to the much fairer, democratic method---majority rules. And the only NO votes counted now are those that are cast that way. This means that it will now be much easier to vote in a union.

 

[Hung Start]

The reason for the percentage requirement in the past is that a % of the pilotgroup had to vote as a threshold...and all those he did not vote were automatically counted as NO votes. If there was no chance of it passing then funds and man hours weren't spent to send it out. That meant the deck was stacked against the organizing pilots.

That law was recently changed to the much fairer, democratic method---majority rules. And the only NO votes counted now are those that are cast that way. This means that it will now be much easier to vote in a union.

NJW, I firmly disagree.

Before I was furloughed from Flex, I had sent in the card to the union. I sent it in hoping to get this brought to a head and let the pilots decide if they want a union or not. Enough of my fellow pilots did not submit a card, and that tells me that the majority of Flex pilots are not interested in a union. Period. NOT INTERESTED.
I think the rules were correct before. If you are not interested, or too lazy to fill out a simple card, then your vote should be considered no. All you are doing is trying to jam down the throats of the Flex pilots what has been proven over 13 years that they do not want. What do you not understand about that????
And yes, I understand the need for unions, I was a shop steward in both the Teamsters and Machinists in my younger days. And yes, I personally would like to see a few things change at Flex (most notably the ability to change things on a moments notice, things such as furlough agreements) but the company has not shown to do that in the past. As for bases, rules and such, that would all need to be negotiated anyway, with absolutely no promises that any of that would happen, union or not.
Not sure those few things are worth the contentious enviroment that would be around for the next few years.

Hung

 

[netjetwife]

Hung, me too...

Life can get hectic for a family w/a normal lifestyle. It's doubly so for frac families, so there could be perfectly legit reasons that a pilot didn't get a card in on time-- that had meant to vote yes. Thus, the only fair thing to do is make it neutral. The penalty comes in losing out on your vote. Turning it into a NO vote is excessive punishment.

We don't conduct our Country's voting like that. To me, that says it all. I bet lots of us have missed voting in a local election before. The thought of those votes getting counted as NO or YES votes would start a riot at City Hall. Whose to say how people intended to vote? So let's just turn them into YES votes... Now you can see why such presumptions are wrong --either way. I was amazed when I learned that organizing drive votes were so undemocratic.

Neutrality also passes your lazy rule. No card, no count... that motivates those who want to vote. Fair and square...

As to negotiations, when you first start out having nothing--no contract-- then you have lots to gain, little to lose. There's many things in a CBA beyond pay if you didn't think that would change. There's value just in getting a legally binding set of rules in place that can't be changed on you.

It seems that there are definitely some possibilities you could explore. With a majority rule no one forces anything on anyone...

 

[wacoflyr]

With a majority rule no one forces anything on anyone...

Huh? Did you really mean to say that? And if you are in the minority? I don't know what to say! I got a good laugh before bedtime. Thanks!

 

[Hung Start]

Hung, me too...

Life can get hectic for a family w/a normal lifestyle. It's doubly so for frac families, so there could be perfectly legit reasons that a pilot didn't get a card in on time-- that had meant to vote yes. .

Please,,,,,stop making excuses for the lazy, or not interested. Those cards were around for MONTHS and MONTHS. There simply was no excuse for not doing it

We don't conduct our Country's voting like that. Whose to say how people intended to vote?

Yes we do. If you don't vote, maybe the person you hate gets put in. Same thing here. If you don't vote, you don't care. If you don't vote, you're not interested. And that is what my fellow pilots said about the union at Flex. Not interested.

Neutrality also passes your lazy rule. No card, no count... that motivates those who want to vote. Fair and square...

And that's what we got. No card, no count, no union.

As to negotiations, when you first start out having nothing--no contract-- then you have lots to gain, little to lose. There's many things in a CBA beyond pay if you didn't think that would change. There's value just in getting a legally binding set of rules in place that can't be changed on you.

I agree with you there, although tell me how much in back pay, etc. the Flight Option guys lost in the years it took them to negotiate. What was it,,, over 3 years worth? Flex has increased salaries all that time.

It seems that there are definitely some possibilities you could explore. With a majority rule no one forces anything on anyone...

LOL, Isn't that an oxymoron?? Isn't the "majority" forcing the "minority"?? Somebody is not going to be happy!

I'm not interested in debating the pros or cons of a union at Flex. All I know is there was not enough interest to make it happen. So please, NJW, stop telling us we need it. Obviously, the MAJORITY thought differently.
Hung

 

[Flyingdog1]

Church,

Please be praying for the family of Sgt. Zachary J. Walters. His grandmother, Lore Miner, attends our church and his mother Gina lives with her. Sgt. Zachary J. Walters was killed in Marjah, Afghanistan after disembarking from a vehicle with another Marine and detonating a pressure plate bomb at 5:55 AM Afghan time. Today the family is flying to Dover AFB in Maryland to attend a ceremony tomorrow as he is returned to US soil. He had just completed 5 years of service and signed up for an additional 4 years. He turned 24 on May 24th. He arrived in Marjah on the May 22nd, trained for two weeks and on patrol just a few days before this tragic incident.

After Memorial Day this hits me hard. I am truly grieved for this family and ask you to join me in prayer for them. On one hand I am proud to know that he has given his life protecting us and on the other, I am deeply grieved that he had to give his life to protect us. Please join with me in praying for Lore, Gina, and Patrick as well as for the rest of Sgt. Walters family.

Sgt. Zachary J. Walters is now looking into the eyes of Jesus and enjoying the pleasures of heaven where there is no more tears and no more pain. The day is coming when we can thank him for his service as we join him and others who have given their lives to Jesus Christ and trusted in Him alone to forgive our sins.

Phil 1:20-21,

To put some perspective on our argument. I got this news ealier today.

We are all so petty.

God bless the United States!

 

[EatSleepFly]

-----

 

[Dooker]

Church,

Please be praying for the family of Sgt. Zachary J. Walters. His grandmother, Lore Miner, attends our church and his mother Gina lives with her. Sgt. Zachary J. Walters was killed in Marjah, Afghanistan after disembarking from a vehicle with another Marine and detonating a pressure plate bomb at 5:55 AM Afghan time. Today the family is flying to Dover AFB in Maryland to attend a ceremony tomorrow as he is returned to US soil. He had just completed 5 years of service and signed up for an additional 4 years. He turned 24 on May 24th. He arrived in Marjah on the May 22nd, trained for two weeks and on patrol just a few days before this tragic incident.

After Memorial Day this hits me hard. I am truly grieved for this family and ask you to join me in prayer for them. On one hand I am proud to know that he has given his life protecting us and on the other, I am deeply grieved that he had to give his life to protect us. Please join with me in praying for Lore, Gina, and Patrick as well as for the rest of Sgt. Walters family.

Sgt. Zachary J. Walters is now looking into the eyes of Jesus and enjoying the pleasures of heaven where there is no more tears and no more pain. The day is coming when we can thank him for his service as we join him and others who have given their lives to Jesus Christ and trusted in Him alone to forgive our sins.

Phil 1:20-21,

To put some perspective on our argument. I got this news ealier today.

We are all so petty.

God bless the United States!

Stories like this remind me of why we need to bring back the draft.

 

[Hung Start]

Stories like this remind me of why we need to bring back the draft.

Really.

Is it TOO much to ask, for you to give 2 years of your life to support the country that us going to support your fanny for the next 70 or so years??

Hung

 

[glasspilot]

A draft would screw up our military. By having a voulanter force you can invest resources into training. Plus, you end up with a more educated force by not drafting. Sure, some people in high school are not interested and would rather smoke pot. I say let 'em. Smoke your pot and stay out of the armed forces. Those who have the motivation and patriotism can and do make the US Armed Forces what they are.

Force a draft and all those who don't want to be there are there and the QOL for those who DO want to be there goes down the tubes as they are now in the same boat and get treated the same...as a pot head who doesn't want to be there and needs "re-education".


Nothing against pot head high school drop outs, but maybe the military is not the answer.

 

[pers-headwall]

Open up more bases after the furloughees are recalled and you will attract better pilots when growth comes down the road. There are plenty of highly-qualified pilots living on the West Coast who don't want to commute to Denver.

Do you guys have any new aircraft (or replacement aircraft) arriving this year or next?

Have we ever had any trouble attracting "qualified" pilots? Attracting pilots with good attitudes may be a problem, but basic qualifications have never been a problem. In the current industry slump we're awash in qualified pilots. When we can't find pilots with at least 2500 hrs Total and jet experience then we'll have a shortage. I can't imagine that will be any year soon. I support more bases, but using a "shortage" of qualified pilots available is the flimsiest excuse I've ever heard to open more bases! You have to show how it will save money. That's the way business works, Duh!

 

[pers-headwall]

The reason for the percentage requirement in the past is that a % of the pilotgroup had to vote as a threshold...and all those he did not vote were automatically counted as NO votes. If there was no chance of it passing then funds and man hours weren't spent to send it out. That meant the deck was stacked against the organizing pilots.

That law was recently changed to the much fairer, democratic method---majority rules. And the only NO votes counted now are those that are cast that way. This means that it will now be much easier to vote in a union.

Yes, and if the Nobama administration has its way we will have a highly undemocratic "Card Check". Meaning a yes or no union vote will no longer be a secret ballot. When in the hell in the history of this country have we ever had non-secret ballots!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!!!!!!....!!!! With the "Chicago Style Politics" of the current administration, and that of the Teamsters, it's a wonder us "no" voters abstain rather than vote no. It's out of fear the corrupt union will "leak" who voted no and the subsequent retaliation that comes with it. Unions are doing their best to run this country into the ground. I sight the UAW and SEIU as greedy examples.

Pure Democracy is 2 wolves and 1 sheep voting on what to have for lunch. Not exactly an unpredictable outcome. The same goes for counting only those that voted versus the entire pilot group. A lame excuse for fairness and my rights.

 

[ArtVandalay]

Lets get this bad boy to 12,000 views!

 

[Flex-ible]

Good to see Flexjet back on the first page at least.