LAS Picket huge success

[realityman]

Sorry Publishers, not buying it. Don't you think finding BOTH your pilots asleep at the controls is a very serious problem? Would you really wait TWO WEEKS before letting the company know about it?! If I found my flight crew asleep at the controls, rest assured I'd be on the phone the minute that plane landed! Heck, I might even pick up the flight phone and call before landing!

Secondly, please keep in mind that these crew memebers were dismissed BEFORE any facts of the situation were investigated (only going by what the owner said). Please reread my previous posts to find out what is slowly becoming known.

Third, in the past there have been many occasions where an owner didn't like something a pilot did, or even accused a crew of breaking rules. Those crews were not fired. It's only now that labor negotiations are becoming contentious that this sort of thing is happening. Sorry, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I can put 2 and 2 together.

Finally, we have (not including NJI and NJE) over 500 aircraft and 2100 pilots. It's highly unlikely that the company would have any problem scheduling a client around 2 pilots. It's already being done. In fact, they even have ways of not scheduling 2 pilots together if they don't get along. No biggy.

Yes, it very well could be that the crew DID fall asleep. But one would think an investigation would take place, maybe with the crew on unpaid leave, before the actual termination. Again, sorry, but this is definitely an intimidation tactic. We expect nothing less under the present circumstances of the negotiations, but that doesn't change what it is.

Dispatcher, you are entirely correct. It is ALWAYS up to the crew to determine if they're fit to fly, including a self-fatigue evaluation. However, that doesn't relieve the company of a certain responsibility to at least attmept to schedule in such a way to help minimize the necessity of fatigue calls. If my flight doesn't leave until 0700, then why am I being brought out to the airport at 0300? This kind of thing MUST stop or the efficiency of this operation will continue to erode, especially in light of the fact that we will have to start shutting things down earlier because of these new consequences of fatigue and how the company has now chosen to deal with pilots and discipline.

 

[Publishers]

Something happened-- I do not know what--- do not know when-- and am only assuming that the owner complained. My point was that you are a crew services organization and if an owner says never send that crew again, that crew has a problem, not the owner.

Unlike an airline, you guys live on owner satisfaction. Passenger complaints really do not mean much on an airline, they have little pilot interface. At Netjets it is the main business. Let me assure you that Netjets is not going to tell an owner he has to take a particular crew.

I do not know or claim to know what information who had or what justified termination etc. My point was to indicate the thinking that I think leads to this management battle when I do not even think you all understand sometimes what business this is. Netjets could do this business without pilots ----albeit a difficult task -- and make a similar return. The pilots would be like EJM aircraft or Delta Air Elite and have crews by aircraft.

 

[FAcFriend]

Don't you think finding BOTH your pilots asleep at the controls is a very serious problem? Would you really wait TWO WEEKS before letting the company know about it?!

Like publishers, I dont know all the details- timing etc. But i think you are off base when you think it is odd that they waited two weeks before it was reported unless you have more information.

Things that are very important to you - are incidental to others.
Would it matter if they had reported it immediately? Maybe they had more important things to attend to and this was one of many on their list.

 

[FredGarvin]

Did you know... they have fired pilots for calling in fatigued.

May have, I was not aware of that. Proabably before my time. I know if they fired everybody who called in fatigued these days, they would loose a dozen guys a day.

If anybody gets fired it should be whoever is responsible for the horrible abuse of circadian rythms and the Supervisory error of upper management.

What part of 91k covers circadian rythms and what are the rules regarding?

 

[realityman]

Publishers, that has got to be one of the most misinformed posts I've ever read on this forum. I've been flying for NJA for almost 8.5 years now, and you think I don't understand the busines? Not the financial side of it, the customer service side of it. It's obvious that you don't really understand our clients. One of the most common things attempted by our clients is to complain about something, the plane, flightcrew, catering, whatever, in an attempt to either get that flight free, or at a reduced rate. It happens many times. So anytime there's a complaint from a client, it's the crew's problem?!

"My point was that you are a crew services organization and if an owner says never send that crew again, that crew has a problem, not the owner. "

Wrong! If an owner says that, it's the COMPANY'S problem. The company has an obligation to investigate the complaint and then take appropriate action. Many times it turns out to be a scenario like what I described in my first paragraph. Heck, I remember a certain flightcrew that was accused by an owner of making racial epithets. That's a pretty serious allegation, and could have resulted in lawsuits from the owner and the pilot's dismissal had they proven to be true. Fortunately, back then the company did things the proper way and investigated. It turned out to be totally false and the owner was, in fact, just trying to get the flight for free.

So why on earth should a crew be fired just from an allegation?! Maybe they were sleeping, maybe they weren't. At any rate, Netjets really doesn't have a problem keeping one or two pilots away from a certain owner without resorting to termination of the pilots. We are a very large company. I stick by my stance that this is merely an intimidation tactic that's going to backfire in their faces as we proceed with far more caution than normal from fear of wrongful terminations. Delays and canceled flights. But at least we won't be fired for not following the rules.

Not a good management tactic.
Oh, and I guess I'm a little slow today. How would Netjets run the operation without the pilots? Would they be selling shares in those unmanned planes the air force uses? The Raptor I think.

 

[El Chupacabra]

What is the company doing to prevent Fatigued Pilots from flying aircraft?

Are they negotiating shorter crewdays for the next CBA? Are they negotiating longer rest periods?

What are they doing?

 

[realityman]

Oops! I think that air force plane is The Predator.

 

[dsptchrnja]

>>>
Dispatcher, you are entirely correct. It is ALWAYS up to the crew to determine if they're fit to fly, including a self-fatigue evaluation. However, that doesn't relieve the company of a certain responsibility to at least attmept to schedule in such a way to help minimize the necessity of fatigue calls. If my flight doesn't leave until 0700, then why am I being brought out to the airport at 0300? This kind of thing MUST stop or the efficiency of this operation will continue to erode, especially in light of the fact that we will have to start shutting things down earlier because of these new consequences of fatigue and how the company has now chosen to deal with pilots and discipline.

I agree, it sucks, it really does. Welcome to 91K. That has nothing to do with NetJets. I also agree that the company should do all it can to schedule crews in a way that does not inhibit your rest. A scheduler would best better able to describe the challenges associated with this, which I am not one.

 

[El Chupacabra]

welcome to 91k?

91K is a vast improvement from when they use to just call me at 0200 or 0300 for an ASAP. How could they possibly believe I was adequately rested?

What time did they think I went to sleep?

Also we are not under 91K rest rules... We use 135 rest rules which was available to the company for many years.

 

[dsptchrnja]

B.S! It happens and it's not a game. The most recent occurance I'm aware of was about two years ago. The pilot called in fatigued and was terminated on the spot. He was off the payroll for about a year. The union filed a grievance and he was reinstated following arbritation.

You are helping me make my point. There is a big difference between saying it happened and it happens. This is not a regular occurance which, if you read this board, is almost being suggested. Crews call in fatigued daily. Your example happened 2 years ago. And it sounds as though the company made a mistake, and if so, it is an unfortunate occurance which they probably learned a lesson. So who is now going to be more on edge about this issue because of that lesson... the company or the crews?

 

[Diesel]

who is ignorant of the facts? Dispatchr or transpac?

edited because i saw the page went on and on

 

[El Chupacabra]

who is ignorant of the facts? Dispatchr or transpac?

Dude, I know, that you know, who is ignorant of the facts.

 

[dsptchrnja]

91K is a vast improvement from when they use to just call me at 0200 or 0300 for an ASAP. How could they possibly believe I was adequately rested?

So now you realize why they have to SCHEDULE someone to come on at 0300 because they do not have the option to ASAP you at 0300. This answers realityman's question directly.

If my flight doesn't leave until 0700, then why am I being brought out to the airport at 0300?

Either way someone got to be there at 0300. So tell me what would you guys would do differently and still provide the same level of coverage and service? Maybe scheduling will pick up some pointers.

 

[x402]

who is ignorant of the facts? Dispatchr or transpac?

FACTS, we ain't gonna let no stinkin' FACTS get in our way.

 

[Starman]

The company and the owner in question are probably setting themselves up for a multi-million dollar lawsuit from two minority pilots fired because a white owner that's a friend of Santulli didn't like flying with them. I see a whole long line of lawyers wanting a piece of that action.

The stupidity of this company never ceases to amaze me.

 

[realityman]

Dispatcher, once again you have hit the nail on the head. The problem is that if I show at 0300, and the possibility of an ASAP never happens, and then I'm calling in fatigued after only 7 or 8 hours of duty, it's being called a "union work action" or "difficult pilots" or some other such nonsense.
Actually, let me rephrase that. Even if I do fly an ASAP that early, thus justifying my being there, I'm still going to be too tired to fly after a relatively short duty day. And then the name-calling starts (maybe not to my face, but I know what gets said about pilots these days).
The question then becomes, do I give the pilots the 0300 show and end up dropping trips at the end of a relatively short duty because of a fatigue call, or do I have them show at 0530 for the 0700 trip, get a longer duty day out of them, and find something else to do with the early ASAP?

Truly, I don't envy scheduling, but it still seems like no one is doing anything proactive about rest cycles.

Sigh. I remember when this job used to be fun. I'm pretty much fed up with management-types AND unions.

 

[El Chupacabra]

Either way someone got to be there at 0300. So tell me what would you guys would do differently and still provide the same level of coverage and service? Maybe scheduling will pick up some pointers.

Its not scheduling.

Its upper management. They are the one's that sell too many shares for too few airplanes and crews.


Scheduling just has a jigsaw puzzle to put together. The size and shape of the pieces are determined at a higher level.

The solution is to have adequate crews available such that long hours are not necessary and those who will fly the backside of the clock know in advance and the circadain rhythms are not flipped back and forth.

There is no need to have people flying 5 6 7 or 8 legs in a day. 2 or 3 legs.... you are done. No legs T/O after you been on duty 9 hrs already.

just some ideas. The 135 ARC has a duty and rest proposal that would preserve circadian rhythms. Rest times protected every day/night.

 

[Hogprint]

This thread is turning into total B.S.

Bottom line... if you are really fatigued, it is your responsibility to tell the company. NJA does not reprimand fatigued pilots nor any other employees who have not broken a rule. They don't want fatigued pilots flying a/c and they aren't trying to figure out if you're telling the truth or not.

No pilot has ever been fired only because he called in fatigued. Everyone knows your little game here... the victim card is not working. You know when your too tired to fly - no one else is going to figure it out for you.

Not so fast dsptchr...

The company says it will support fatiqued calls with a memo from just gary. Then, wink wink nod nod, the acps try to coerce you into not calling in fatiqued, and worse, lots, I repeat, LOTS of pilots have done a bridgeway 1 arrival over fatique calls.

They can't have it both ways. Either they support us or they don't.

To answer you last statement. There have been pilots released for calling in fatiqued. Go back and check with your sources. I know you don't want to believe the company would do it, but they have proven they are very capable of this sort of intimidation.

 

[El Chupacabra]

IMO,

Someone who falls asleep due to being pushed all week by scheduling, does not merit being terminated.

Maybe a short suspension and "retraining" on fatigue.

Falling asleep due to fatigue is involuntary. Can happen to anyone.

But this is your reward for pushing your body to the limits for the company.

 

[JustInfo]

Well Put Realityman...

"Sigh. I remember when this job used to be fun. I'm pretty much fed up with management-types AND unions."

My feelings exactly. Just read through this and the union board and this place is getting downright embarrasing.

 

[dsptchrnja]

Not so fast dsptchr...

The company says it will support fatiqued calls with a memo from just gary. Then, wink wink nod nod, the acps try to coerce you into not calling in fatiqued, and worse, lots, I repeat, LOTS of pilots have done a bridgeway 1 arrival over fatique calls.

They can't have it both ways. Either they support us or they don't.

To answer you last statement. There have been pilots released for calling in fatiqued. Go back and check with your sources. I know you don't want to believe the company would do it, but they have proven they are very capable of this sort of intimidation.

My best advice, for what it's worth, is for crews to not give anyone a reason to suspect they are lying. In light of the current labor situation some are possibly taking a legitimate rule and manipulating it to fit their agenda. If you guys want to play that game, don't get surprised by a sudden BWY1 arrival. Everyone knows I am not talking about legitimate fatigue issues here. Trust me, ACP's have better things to do than take more time during their busy day to "counsel" bad boys. ACP's are not stupid, they can figure out who's playing by the real rules if you make it obvious.

 

[FLYLOW22]

My best advice, for what it's worth, is for crews to not give anyone a reason to suspect they are lying.

You talk to professional crewmembers like we are summer camp. Your expert advise goes under the "No sh!t Sherlock" category. Thanks for that earthshattering newsflash. NJA pilots around the world will never be the same now that we have you as our advisor. Anything else while you're at it oh Oracle of CMH?

 

[El Chupacabra]

My advice to people receiving my calls concerning fatigue, sick, maintenance writeups is to realize I am in the aircraft with the APU and avionics turned on and sitting right next to the cockpit voice recorder mic while talking on my cellphone with the speakerphone turned on.

 

[dsptchrnja]

You talk to professional crewmembers like we are summer camp. Your expert advise goes under the "No sh!t Sherlock" category. Thanks for that earthshattering newsflash. NJA pilots around the world will never be the same now that we have you as our advisor. Anything else while you're at it oh Oracle of CMH?

You want to push the envelope like a high school class clown... be prepared to be treated like one. My comments are only to those who are not playing by the rules in order to pursue a personal agenda. If you do not fit in this catagory than you have no reason to get defensive.

I think most of the "professional crewmembers" are staying clear of this board.

 

[Hogprint]

dsptchrNJA said:

My best advice, for what it's worth, is for crews to not give anyone a reason to suspect they are lying. In light of the current labor situation some are possibly taking a legitimate rule and manipulating it to fit their agenda. If you guys want to play that game, don't get surprised by a sudden BWY1 arrival. Everyone knows I am not talking about legitimate fatigue issues here. Trust me, ACP's have better things to do than take more time during their busy day to "counsel" bad boys. ACP's are not stupid, they can figure out who's playing by the real rules if you make it obvious.

I'll say it again dspchr, the company can't have it both ways. They are either going to support fatique issues or they're not. It is their policy after all.

I agree ACPs are too busy for this. When a crew calls in fatiqued, then they are done. No questions asked. There should be no grey areas or second guessing.

How can you say a crew is lying about fatique anyway? If I'm tired. I'm tired.

Maybe, just maybe, if a scheduler were held accountable for some of these calls, then we could get to the root of the problem.

Do you see that happening anytime soon?

 

[CMHTroll]

Some pilots do lie about fatigue

If you are tired, you are tired. But if you are not tired and using it for your Union political gain, then you are trying to have it both ways. How about when you claim being tired 30 min before you know when? Or if you find that you are being extended and then you claim you are tired. You need not worry because the company will always err of the side of safety, especially if you call fatigue and grant your wish. We wouldn’t want you falling asleep on the job.

 

[dsptchrnja]

I'll say it again dspchr, the company can't have it both ways. They are either going to support fatique issues or they're not. It is their policy after all.

I agree ACPs are too busy for this. When a crew calls in fatiqued, then they are done. No questions asked. There should be no grey areas or second guessing.

How can you say a crew is lying about fatique anyway? If I'm tired. I'm tired.

Maybe, just maybe, if a scheduler were held accountable for some of these calls, then we could get to the root of the problem.

Do you see that happening anytime soon?

The company has never had it both ways. They've always supported fatigue issues and you know it. Why do you guys even try to pretend you don't have ulterior motives? The rules haven't changed... so what has? Did some crewmembers just decide recently they were going to follow the rules all of sudden?

Why didn't as many crews call in before? That would be the real crux of the safety issue. But everyone reading these threads knows we are not talking about a safety issue, we are talking about a union agenda. This has already been made clear by a crewmember earlier in this post, quite voluntarily. No one has to wonder why the sudden increase.

When a crew calls in "I'm too tired", then yes there are no questions asked given all other things equal. I'm thinking any crew getting called to CMH didn't fit this category. If I'm wrong then I would be forced to agree with you there is a problem. I have yet to see any evidence of that.

I'm guessing crewmembers that are flying the same lines now as they did 2 or 6 years ago who didn't call in tired then, and now are suddenly tired a few times every tour... they are the ones raising yellow flags on themselves. I'm also guessing when the contract is passed the same crewmember will be delighted to fly the same lines he's calling in tired for now.

This is a personal integrity issue. Even if you are "tired" but not too tired to safely fly your passengers... and you call in fatigued anyway saying you're too tired... then you get bent out of shape with the company because you are being called into question... well, I guess that's just how the game is played. Maybe it would just be easier on everyone not to play those games.

The bottom line is you brought this on yourselves. Don't expect them to just roll over and not deal with crews who aren't going to play by the rules. Like I said they raise the yellow flag on themselves.

If so many crewmembers were flying too tired before, well, that's another issue. Just glad we didn't suffer the consequences.

 

[El Chupacabra]

NewsFlash Dispatcher and troll We have been flying fatigued and not complaining for years. After the recent firing of two fatigued pilots... don't think we can take this chance anymore.

What is the company doing to proactively prevent fatigued crews from flying airplanes?

A proposal is already out on the table to have a permanant Protected Rest time period.... A crew may be assigned 2200 to 0600E. This crew will then know that between those hours all tour long They will be in a hotel... not at the FBO not in a plane. Every day the whole tour long. No matter what. This is designed to protect circadian cycle. This is the proposal of the 135 ARC... The company is aware of it because they are on the ARC.

How about 12 hrs min rest periods? Shorter duty period limits.

How about FEWER work days... NOT MORE!

 

[CMHTroll]

It sounds reasonable that a crew have the same 8 hurs protected resst for their entire tour. Be it 2200 – 0600 or 1800 – 0200. It makes sense. It just requires more pilots to cover the demand. Less work = less pay. I thought you wanted to increase your wages all that you could. So work fewer days and get paid less? That sounds opposite from what you have stated in the past. Why would you want to get paid less?

 

[FAcFriend]

Someone who falls asleep due to being pushed all week by scheduling, does not merit being terminated.

El, anyone who falls asleep on the job - any job- for any reason would be fired.

think about it - firefighters work weird hours, if one falls asleep at a fire, he is fired. He can sleep while waiting for a call - but he better not fall asleep at 4 am while sitting in the truck at a fire even if his circadium rhythms are all screwed up.

Police officer works double duty- falls asleep in his car while parked at the side of the road - fired.

What job can I have that if I fall asleep I will not get fired?

If you come up with one, let us all know- I want THAT job!!