Larger aircraft for Eagle?

[General Lee]

Surplus1,

I can understand that you may want to fly a larger airplane to gain extra pay, but those planes do belong on mainline since they would be replacing mainline aircraft. AA will be parking their 100 seater--the F100---and this would be a replacement. Taking these would be a direct attempt and taking away higher paying jobs that the Eagle guys could be entitled to someday.....Going to mainline equals a boost in benefits and salary---and taking those jobs down to the regionals takes away part of those better benefits. The only reason I have been talking about the 70 seaters is because I would like to address the problem of over 1000 furloughs at Delta. AA no doubt has the same problem. Let's get these guys/gals back into the cockpits....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[InclusiveScope]

Surplus1,

I can understand that you may want to fly a larger airplane to gain extra pay, but those planes do belong on mainline since they would be replacing mainline aircraft. AA will be parking their 100 seater--the F100---and this would be a replacement. Taking these would be a direct attempt and taking away higher paying jobs that the Eagle guys could be entitled to someday.....Going to mainline equals a boost in benefits and salary---and taking those jobs down to the regionals takes away part of those better benefits. The only reason I have been talking about the 70 seaters is because I would like to address the problem of over 1000 furloughs at Delta. AA no doubt has the same problem. Let's get these guys/gals back into the cockpits....

Bye Bye--General Lee

General,
You say that "taking these jobs would be a direct attempt and taking away higher paying jobs that the Eagle guys COULD be entitled to SOMEDAY" That is your quote. Two problems with that quote:

1. Mainline pilots have had no problem TAKING things from regional pilots thru "jetsforjobs" type scams.

2. Keeping #1 in mind, why should I give a dam* about you considering that you are willing to take from me and that my reward "COULD" result in something for me "SOMEDAY".

If you want to work with me, then give me a WRITTEN guarantee signed by our union that tells me what I will gain. If not, you can pound sand and suffer the consequences. If we are together, then we need to be on the same list. If we are separate, then I will do what is best for ME.

Surplus,
Well said as usual. I admire your patience, and thank you for your service.

Inclusivescope

 

[General Lee]

Inclusivescope,

Is this coming from someone who doesn't think he/she will ever make it to a major? That could easily cloud your vision and give you the "give me it---it should be mine" attitude. I can't believe that you guys can't see that the 100 seater should be mainline--since it will be repalacing a mainline aircraft directly--the 737-200. We have well over 1000 pilots on the street, and you guys want to expand more at their expense. Amazing. If the aircraft were not a 737, the rates would probably be a lot lower anyways, and the economics could be worked out. Management is trying to take advantage of this down time by seeing how low everyone can get---and I bet you guys have already given offers. Dalpa will not give that up.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[727RedTails]

Boo who Boo who Boo who Boo who Boo who Boo who Boo who

We should all feel so sorry for that select group of Comair guys, I get so tired of hearing that RJDC crap on the ALPA board now we have to listen to it here. Look Surplus1, I understand you work for a decent regional, but for most of us the goal is the majors for pay, schedules and retirement.

SO AS LONG AS THERE ARE MORE AIRCRAFT AT THE MAJORS THE MORE OF US HAVE A CHANCE TO REACH THAT GOAL.

Doesn't American already have 100 seaters in the F100's. Just because Eagle flys EMB a/c doesn't mean all EMB flying should be done by Eagle. It has historically been mainline flying and for the good of our profession we should keep it that way. If I didn't know any better I would think all the RJDC people were working for management. You guys are like a plague, please stay away.

 

[jetexas]

EGL ALPA is merely making a grab for postitions they know they would likely never see otherwise.

The problem with the Eagle/AA relationship is that Eagle has historically been given a dismal shot at AA jobs when times are good. The flow through was a joke. AA showed they would much rather hire "non-Eagle" pilots. Eagle pilots were left with realisitic alternatives which were to work for another regional or fly for a competitor of AA.

APA squandered chances to merge Eagle over the years. Now Eagle is slowly growing. Its a sad catch 22. The pilots of regionals should want to slow their own progression in favor of prosperity to the majors. However, if this is done, it has been shown that they would not reap the benefits. The only thing left to do is the natural thing, which is to try and better ones current position.

The will of the regional pilot to see themselves grow could be far less if, in good times, the pilots of majors would be far more active in helping to get regional pilots across the fence.

 

[InclusiveScope]

Inclusivescope,

Is this coming from someone who doesn't think he/she will ever make it to a major? That could easily cloud your vision and give you the "give me it---it should be mine" attitude. I can't believe that you guys can't see that the 100 seater should be mainline--since it will be repalacing a mainline aircraft directly--the 737-200. We have well over 1000 pilots on the street, and you guys want to expand more at their expense. Amazing. If the aircraft were not a 737, the rates would probably be a lot lower anyways, and the economics could be worked out. Management is trying to take advantage of this down time by seeing how low everyone can get---and I bet you guys have already given offers. Dalpa will not give that up.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Is this coming from someone who doesn't think he/she will ever make it to a major?

No this is coming from someone who ALREADY works for a major. ASA, CMR, EXJ, and EGL are already majors because they have over 1 billion dollars in revenue.

I can't believe that you guys can't see that the 100 seater should be mainline--since it will be repalacing a mainline aircraft directly--the 737-200.

I can't believe that you can't see that it shouldn't matter how many seats an aircraft has. The E110s and Metros should have been "mainline". Why should there be a dividing line? Why should there be a difference?

We have well over 1000 pilots on the street, and you guys want to expand more at their expense.

Yes you do General. If your MEC had insisted on a single list, those pilots would have jobs. They didn't , so take it up with your MEC, not with me!

Inclusivescope

 

[InclusiveScope]

Boo who Boo who Boo who Boo who Boo who Boo who Boo who

We should all feel so sorry for that select group of Comair guys, I get so tired of hearing that RJDC crap on the ALPA board now we have to listen to it here. Look Surplus1, I understand you work for a decent regional, but for most of us the goal is the majors for pay, schedules and retirement.

SO AS LONG AS THERE ARE MORE AIRCRAFT AT THE MAJORS THE MORE OF US HAVE A CHANCE TO REACH THAT GOAL.

Doesn't American already have 100 seaters in the F100's. Just because Eagle flys EMB a/c doesn't mean all EMB flying should be done by Eagle. It has historically been mainline flying and for the good of our profession we should keep it that way. If I didn't know any better I would think all the RJDC people were working for management. You guys are like a plague, please stay away.

We should all feel so sorry for that select group of Comair guys, I get so tired of hearing that RJDC crap on the ALPA board now we have to listen to it here.

Redtail,
You don't have to listen to anything - you are free to ignore anything and stick your head back in the sand where it has been along with ALPAs.

Look Surplus1, I understand you work for a decent regional, but for most of us the goal is the majors for pay, schedules and retirement.

Redtail, shouldn't the goal be for "pay, schedules and retirement" PERIOD, regardless of the size of aircraft? Why just for those at the "mainline"?

SO AS LONG AS THERE ARE MORE AIRCRAFT AT THE MAJORS THE MORE OF US HAVE A CHANCE TO REACH THAT GOAL.

Redtail, how about we start acting like a UNION and bring that GOAL to ALL, not just those that are anointed as "mainline" pilots!

If I didn't know any better I would think all the RJDC people were working for management.

If I didn't know any better, I would think that ALPA works for management. Who in their right mind would give management the option of allowing different pilot groups, represented by the same union, the option of bidding on flying. ALPA did.

Inclusivescope

 

[General Lee]

Inclusivescope,

ALPA's definition of a Major on their website does state that a "Major" carrier makes over $1 billion, and has aircraft with 100 seats or more. You did make the first one, though. The one list idea was a good one too---but the senior Comair and ASA pilots wanted DOH or a certain ratio---which would NEVER happen. They just didn't want to be FO's---that is the truth. Can you see Dan Ford being my FO someday? That would be great. He would have to "drip stick the gas tanks" on every leg. Oh, let me guess? That is why he wouldn't want to be a Delta FO-----it wouldn't have been like that if he hadn't made such a fuss. And about the 1000 furloughs, you just like to continue to push that problem away---blame it on our MEC. Those guys aren't going anywhere---and they should be going back to cockpits sooner than later. But, you want ASA/Comair to take over the World---and take away higher paying jobs for good. That is what would happen. If you had your way----Mainline would have 200 777 pilots and that would be it, with every other Delta pilot your FO now on the RJ---or new 100 seater. Wrong. I would have it the other way---you guys getting hired at Delta and gaining better benefits, and better pay---moving up, not down when it comes to pay and benefits. You just can't seem to understand that.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[InclusiveScope]

General,
Where on the ALPA website is that definition of Major? The DOT uses only revenue, not size of aircraft. Does that mean that a Northwest DC9-10 is not a major? After all, it only has 78 seats.

Inclusivescope

 

[wil]

I would think that a 121 Airline Pilot would be enough. Dividing our pilot group based on aircraft size does nothing but enpower management. Can it be any clearer?
When ASA/Comair was bought we should have been integrated into one list. Allowing "Wholly Owned" subsidiaries has hurt us all and there are 1000 Delta furloughs while Chitauqua and Skywest grow in our hub. General, I want the furloughs back in the cockpit as well. I want Delta, ASA and Comair to band together and remember that we are in this together! If there was no contract flying there would be no furloughs! All the best- Wil (I hope there is a double-breasted jacket in my future!)

 

[General Lee]

Wil,

I hope there is one in your future too. You have the right attitude, and you are not selling out. You can see through his B.S. And, you can see that the senior guys are grabbing for things they should have gotten when they interviewed at a Major. Now, since they don't want to "play the game" and "go the traditional way" to larger aircraft, they instead want to take it away from people that went through the whole process, but were unfortunately furloughed and are on the street. They don't give a rat's a$$, and they forget that some of these furloughs probably came from Comair/ASA, and some probably paid some money (like everyone else) to help support the Comair guys in their TIME OF NEED. Now they are down on their luck, and some DCI pilots want to expand at their expense, even though those planes would be REPLACING CURRENT MAINLINE aircraft. Not everybody here is a cocky military pilot who doesn't care about regional pilots. Most of the furloughs were guys/gals that worked hard in the regionals and took a paycut with first year pay to fly at Delta, and now most are watching from the sidelines. A lot of those senior guys just don't get it. It sounds like you do, and I hope you do succeed in getting what you want. It really is a great job.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[canadflyau]

I don't want to join the pissing contest but have observations...

First the flowthrough at AMR. If it was such a joke why the heck did it get signed by both sides, it wasn't a unilateral deal. The problem from what I undertand is the execution (correct me if I am wrong) as perscribed in the contact, b/c everyone thought... who would pass up an opportunity to fly for AA. The flowthough was not a joke, but as times have changed more mainline pilots have used it than Eagle pilots. When times were good they (AA) started right at the top of the list and sent down letters as perscribed in the agreement which they had X# of months to accept. Until such time as they accepted or turned it down they could not be passed over. The top of the Eagle list didn't want to take a pay cut and go back to the right seat... so they didn't respond and kept the "senior dog" schedule they were obviously enjoying. Again from what I understand the slots for the Eagle pilots were there and handed out to the letter of the law, but the top of the seniority list was uninterested and clogged up the flowthrough b/c AA had to wait the time perscribed before the could offer it to the next person. When I interviewed there, and talked with other pilots there everyone clearly understood the problem with the agreement wasn't the agreement but that it was going to be a "slow-through" for them to get to folks on the seniority list who wanted to partake..

Surplus, from your posts I bet you must hate paying your Union dues, and you did not accept the money that came in the mail... being a senior pilot and not having ever gained more of a focus than beyond yourself. Leaving a legacy in this profession is something I aim to do. I hope to leave this profession in a way so that if one of my one children were to choose this path I will feel I helped progress the profession and not aid in its demise. I hope where I fly for never proposes flying a jet.. I am just fine being prop trash with my first airline. Maybe the idea of instant gratification is carrying over to our work.. I may not be too off base, but I think my time to fly jets will come. Surplus, I couldn't agree with you more about ALPA:

those advocating that I yield for the good of the profession do not even acknoweldge that I am a member, and an equal member, of the profession.

that is a fair summary. I have been on the other end of the stick as U ended my career at a wholly owned. Yet I do not join your point of view. I feel the RJ must have snuck up on folks, or when discussed was laughed at as they cajoled "it will never work/last." So ALPA dropped the ball then. If they hadn't we could have enjoyed the massive hiring at the majors in the late 90's. We would be seeing AA making a massive recall, b/c all those fine folks would already be on that list. Yes, I agree with General Lee, a line has to be drawn by ALPA as painful as that may be for us. Hopefully they will start attacking the problem by only allowing the raising of the bar. If a "regional" is gonna fly big iron, they will pay and treat employees accordingly, only a unselfrespecting (if the word exists) person would disagree.. I do not want to watch the mainline jobs dry up. I want all those above me to start making those career moves, then I can move up one day and start driving for DAL, SWA, FEDEX.

 

[180ToTheMarker]

About 20 years ago, this guy named Lorenzo decimated the industry by tranferring aircraft (TXI-NY air), pitting pilots against pilots, and busting unions. Back then it was us against them, now some of our own are not only advocating this but are propositioning management to do it! Unbevielvable!!!

 

[B6Busdriver]

Guys like surplus will never get it. How much do you think the EMB190 will pay first,second or third year if flown at Eagle? Surplus doesn't care because he's at the top of the scale most likely so it only affects him in a positive manner. One hundred seat airplanes need to be flown on the mainline, period! Surplus looks at like this, a few more bucks an hour and I get to fly a bigger airplane. I've been on both sides of the fence on this issue and the grass is greener! Don't be bitter Surplus just send out those apps.

 

[FLB717]

Im starting to think pilots are all members of the incest club. Always trying to scr*w each other, even if thier in the same family. Mr. Lorenzo and Ichan would be proud. If only they had RJs back in the day. Ive said it once, twice one million times...one list for all flying done at a company.