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Kerry Purple Heart Doc Speaks Out
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MarineGrunt
Will kill for peace.
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2002
- Posts
- 1,854
The story of Kerry firing mortars at a shoreline and being hit with fragments is EXTREMELY unlikely. The fragmentation range is well short of the minimum range of mortars (at least the 60 and 81mm, which if on a boat, he probably had 60's). To get the rounds that close, he would pretty much have to fire the mortar without the baseplate on and the tube pointed straight up (which would most likely get his ass kicked by everyone around him).
I wasn't a mortarman, but I think this story smells funny. I find it in uncalled for to sit back and pick apart someone's military career in their own quest for political gain. If you can show me convincing evidence that Kerry did not serve with honor (BEFORE he came back, mind you) then shut up and color. Unless you can show me convincing evidence that Dubya was AWOL, which no one has, then shut up.
I'm not saying I like Kerry, in fact, I think he is an outrageous douchebag, but that's besides the point. I know plenty of a$$holes that have demonstrated incredible amounts of courage and heroisim under fire. The unfortunate truth is that even if someone is a hero, it doesn't necessarilly make them a great person when the steel stops flying. I wish that werent' the truth, but it is. Just lay off attacking them for what they did while fighting for our country. We at least owe them that.
I wasn't a mortarman, but I think this story smells funny. I find it in uncalled for to sit back and pick apart someone's military career in their own quest for political gain. If you can show me convincing evidence that Kerry did not serve with honor (BEFORE he came back, mind you) then shut up and color. Unless you can show me convincing evidence that Dubya was AWOL, which no one has, then shut up.
I'm not saying I like Kerry, in fact, I think he is an outrageous douchebag, but that's besides the point. I know plenty of a$$holes that have demonstrated incredible amounts of courage and heroisim under fire. The unfortunate truth is that even if someone is a hero, it doesn't necessarilly make them a great person when the steel stops flying. I wish that werent' the truth, but it is. Just lay off attacking them for what they did while fighting for our country. We at least owe them that.
3
350DRIVER
This does get funny...
http://www.kings.edu/twsawyer/awol/docs/doc24.gif
It is well documented that George W. Bush never showed up for National Guard duty for a period of approximately one year, possibly more, in 1972-1973. Despite all the talk about "honor and dignity," Bush seems to have a problem meeting his commitments.
This man is nothing short of a complete and total disgrace to the office that he currently holds.
Gaps Remain In Bush Guard Service
WASHINGTON, May 4, 2004
Candidate Reality Check
George W. Bush is shown during his time in the Texas Air National Guard, 1968-73, in this undated photo. (Photo: AP)
Sen. John F. Kerry, D-Mass., seen in this 1960s photo, receives a military decoration during the Vietnam War. (Photo: AP)
THE FILE:
1ST LT. G. W. BUSH
(CBS) By Beth Lester,
CBS News Political Unit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As the back and forth over military service continues, the Bush and Kerry campaigns are engaged in an increasingly personal battle over who served and how. The continuing questions have prompted a new CBS News investigation into the first military records shakedown of this presidential campaign: the drawn-out battle for the records of President George W. Bush.
The missing military records include a bevy of forms, logs, pay stubs and evaluations from Mr. Bush's time in the Texas Air National Guard. CBS News' evaluation of all the documents released by the White House confirms that the records have several holes.
One important question concerns a required physical that President Bush missed in 1972. Because of his absence, Mr. Bush lost his flying wings. Air National Guard regulations require that "the local commander who has authority to convene a Flying Evaluation Board will direct an investigation as to why the individual failed to accomplish the medical examination." But there are no records of an investigation or of any requests to complete one.
There are various possible explanations. Perhaps the investigation was never concluded or never forwarded up the chain of command. The regulation says the commander "will" direct an investigation but it does not require the completed report to be forwarded up the chain of command. The commander "may" do so, but it is not required. The report could have been lost at lower levels.
Or perhaps, as journalist James C. Moore suggests in the liberal online magazine Salon, Mr. Bush thought the grounding would end his obligation to the Guard and was happy to let the matter drop. Or maybe, also a Moore speculation, there was a drug or alcohol induced reason for Mr. Bush's absence that he and his superiors wanted to avoid publicizing.
In 2000, Mr. Bush said he missed the physical because his family doctor was in Texas. But, as Time magazine reports, Air Force surgeons must perform the physicals and there was no surgeon shortage in Alabama. In March 2004, the White House said Mr. Bush did not need the physical because he was not flying. Regardless of these speculations, there is no record of any investigation in Mr. Bush's file. As Moore concludes, "A pilot simply did not walk away from all of that training with two years remaining on his tour of duty without a formal explanation as to what happened and why."
As for the highest profile issue, the available files do not clear up the "missing" section of the president's National Guard service. From May 1972 through May 1973 there are highly irregular records for his attendance at required drills, reports Walter Robinson in the Boston Globe. During that time, Mr. Bush had been given permission to move from his home base in Houston to Montgomery, Ala., to work on a Congressional campaign.
Until February of this year, no documents existed to suggest that Mr. Bush performed any duty in either Texas or Alabama during those months. Pay stubs released in February show that he was paid for enough days in Alabama to be judged "satisfactory," but that he did not do any duty between April 16 and October 28, 1972, and that he failed to show up for training in December 1972, February 1973 and March 1973.
There is nothing in the records from that key period beyond those pay stubs – no evaluations from either Mr. Bush's Alabama supervisors or his Texas ones. In fact, Mr. Bush's Texas evaluators wrote on May 2, 1973 that, "Lt. Bush has not been observed at this unit during the period of report. A civilian occupation made it necessary for him to move to Montgomery, Alabama. He cleared this base on 15 May 1972 and has been performing equivalent training in a non-flying status with the 187th Tac Recon Gp, Dannelly ANG Base, Alabama." But no Alabama records exist. And Mr. Bush's official discharge papers include no evidence of any duty between May 1972 and October 1973, when he left the Guard.
Beyond those two issues, there are several others unaddressed by Mr. Bush's files. At the same time, the president is not alone in having some holes in his military records. A CBS News investigation shows evaluations are missing for the periods of 11 March 1967 to 21 March 1967 and 15 April 1967 to 7 June 1967. The first gap is probably explained by traveling time as Kerry switched bases, but the second is unaccounted for at this point. The Kerry campaign said repeatedly that it has made public all of its records.
CBS News military analyst Mitch Mitchell says there is no way to know what is missing or if there is anything missing in the first place. According to Mitchell, there is no uniform or standard filing form and most observers agree that National Guard records from that period are a mess. The only expectation, says Mitchell, is that evaluations should be continuous and have no breaks.
The Kerry campaign thinks it has a winner with this issue. Kerry himself broke his silence last week and said, "I think a lot of veterans are going to be very angry at a president who can't account for his own service in the National Guard." And the Kerry camp sent out a press release entitled "KEY UNANSWERED QUESTIONS: Bush's Record In The National Guard." As spokesman Chad Clanton said, "Voters are going to have to decide: someone who volunteered to service their country when their country needed them or someone else who, you know, it speaks for itself. It is a contrast, it is a difference. … There is no better test than whether someone is committed to defending their country than whether they've put their life on the line on the battlefield."
For its part, the Bush-Cheney campaign is unmoved, directing reporters to a statement made last Tuesday by communications director Nicolle Devenish that said, in part, "Instead of explaining his record, John Kerry has turned to political attacks on the President. John Kerry is doing exactly what he said he would never do, 'divide America over who served and how.'" Devenish is referring to a statement made by Kerry in 1992 when Bill Clinton was a candidate for the presidency.
One way to resolve all of these questions is for both candidates to sign a "release authorization form," which would allow the National Personnel Records in St. Louis to provide any interested party with their complete documents. Mr. Bush has not signed one so far and the White House says he has no plans to do so. Sen. Kerry has not signed the form either, although no one contacted for this article suggested that documents are missing from Kerry's record. The Kerry campaign would not say whether the senator had any plans to sign a release authorization in the future.
It seems unlikely that either campaign will end the military records debate anytime soon. Both campaigns see national security credentials as important in this election year and letting the other off the hook would be a monumental concession. Stay tuned for more controversy instead.
By Beth Lester
©MMIV, CBS Broadcasting Inc. All Rights Reserved.
3 5 0
http://www.awolbush.com/
http://www.kings.edu/twsawyer/awol/docs/doc24.gif
It is well documented that George W. Bush never showed up for National Guard duty for a period of approximately one year, possibly more, in 1972-1973. Despite all the talk about "honor and dignity," Bush seems to have a problem meeting his commitments.
This man is nothing short of a complete and total disgrace to the office that he currently holds.
Gaps Remain In Bush Guard Service
WASHINGTON, May 4, 2004
Candidate Reality Check
George W. Bush is shown during his time in the Texas Air National Guard, 1968-73, in this undated photo. (Photo: AP)
Sen. John F. Kerry, D-Mass., seen in this 1960s photo, receives a military decoration during the Vietnam War. (Photo: AP)
THE FILE:
1ST LT. G. W. BUSH
(CBS) By Beth Lester,
CBS News Political Unit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As the back and forth over military service continues, the Bush and Kerry campaigns are engaged in an increasingly personal battle over who served and how. The continuing questions have prompted a new CBS News investigation into the first military records shakedown of this presidential campaign: the drawn-out battle for the records of President George W. Bush.
The missing military records include a bevy of forms, logs, pay stubs and evaluations from Mr. Bush's time in the Texas Air National Guard. CBS News' evaluation of all the documents released by the White House confirms that the records have several holes.
One important question concerns a required physical that President Bush missed in 1972. Because of his absence, Mr. Bush lost his flying wings. Air National Guard regulations require that "the local commander who has authority to convene a Flying Evaluation Board will direct an investigation as to why the individual failed to accomplish the medical examination." But there are no records of an investigation or of any requests to complete one.
There are various possible explanations. Perhaps the investigation was never concluded or never forwarded up the chain of command. The regulation says the commander "will" direct an investigation but it does not require the completed report to be forwarded up the chain of command. The commander "may" do so, but it is not required. The report could have been lost at lower levels.
Or perhaps, as journalist James C. Moore suggests in the liberal online magazine Salon, Mr. Bush thought the grounding would end his obligation to the Guard and was happy to let the matter drop. Or maybe, also a Moore speculation, there was a drug or alcohol induced reason for Mr. Bush's absence that he and his superiors wanted to avoid publicizing.
In 2000, Mr. Bush said he missed the physical because his family doctor was in Texas. But, as Time magazine reports, Air Force surgeons must perform the physicals and there was no surgeon shortage in Alabama. In March 2004, the White House said Mr. Bush did not need the physical because he was not flying. Regardless of these speculations, there is no record of any investigation in Mr. Bush's file. As Moore concludes, "A pilot simply did not walk away from all of that training with two years remaining on his tour of duty without a formal explanation as to what happened and why."
As for the highest profile issue, the available files do not clear up the "missing" section of the president's National Guard service. From May 1972 through May 1973 there are highly irregular records for his attendance at required drills, reports Walter Robinson in the Boston Globe. During that time, Mr. Bush had been given permission to move from his home base in Houston to Montgomery, Ala., to work on a Congressional campaign.
Until February of this year, no documents existed to suggest that Mr. Bush performed any duty in either Texas or Alabama during those months. Pay stubs released in February show that he was paid for enough days in Alabama to be judged "satisfactory," but that he did not do any duty between April 16 and October 28, 1972, and that he failed to show up for training in December 1972, February 1973 and March 1973.
There is nothing in the records from that key period beyond those pay stubs – no evaluations from either Mr. Bush's Alabama supervisors or his Texas ones. In fact, Mr. Bush's Texas evaluators wrote on May 2, 1973 that, "Lt. Bush has not been observed at this unit during the period of report. A civilian occupation made it necessary for him to move to Montgomery, Alabama. He cleared this base on 15 May 1972 and has been performing equivalent training in a non-flying status with the 187th Tac Recon Gp, Dannelly ANG Base, Alabama." But no Alabama records exist. And Mr. Bush's official discharge papers include no evidence of any duty between May 1972 and October 1973, when he left the Guard.
Beyond those two issues, there are several others unaddressed by Mr. Bush's files. At the same time, the president is not alone in having some holes in his military records. A CBS News investigation shows evaluations are missing for the periods of 11 March 1967 to 21 March 1967 and 15 April 1967 to 7 June 1967. The first gap is probably explained by traveling time as Kerry switched bases, but the second is unaccounted for at this point. The Kerry campaign said repeatedly that it has made public all of its records.
CBS News military analyst Mitch Mitchell says there is no way to know what is missing or if there is anything missing in the first place. According to Mitchell, there is no uniform or standard filing form and most observers agree that National Guard records from that period are a mess. The only expectation, says Mitchell, is that evaluations should be continuous and have no breaks.
The Kerry campaign thinks it has a winner with this issue. Kerry himself broke his silence last week and said, "I think a lot of veterans are going to be very angry at a president who can't account for his own service in the National Guard." And the Kerry camp sent out a press release entitled "KEY UNANSWERED QUESTIONS: Bush's Record In The National Guard." As spokesman Chad Clanton said, "Voters are going to have to decide: someone who volunteered to service their country when their country needed them or someone else who, you know, it speaks for itself. It is a contrast, it is a difference. … There is no better test than whether someone is committed to defending their country than whether they've put their life on the line on the battlefield."
For its part, the Bush-Cheney campaign is unmoved, directing reporters to a statement made last Tuesday by communications director Nicolle Devenish that said, in part, "Instead of explaining his record, John Kerry has turned to political attacks on the President. John Kerry is doing exactly what he said he would never do, 'divide America over who served and how.'" Devenish is referring to a statement made by Kerry in 1992 when Bill Clinton was a candidate for the presidency.
One way to resolve all of these questions is for both candidates to sign a "release authorization form," which would allow the National Personnel Records in St. Louis to provide any interested party with their complete documents. Mr. Bush has not signed one so far and the White House says he has no plans to do so. Sen. Kerry has not signed the form either, although no one contacted for this article suggested that documents are missing from Kerry's record. The Kerry campaign would not say whether the senator had any plans to sign a release authorization in the future.
It seems unlikely that either campaign will end the military records debate anytime soon. Both campaigns see national security credentials as important in this election year and letting the other off the hook would be a monumental concession. Stay tuned for more controversy instead.
By Beth Lester
©MMIV, CBS Broadcasting Inc. All Rights Reserved.
3 5 0
http://www.awolbush.com/
3
350DRIVER
Can it get much more comical?
http://www.awolbush.com/kerry-vs-bush.asp
3 5 0
Still missing are:
Bush's DD-214
Any pages from Bush's flight log
Records from the Flight Inquiry Board convened after Bush was suspended as a pilot
Any evidence of Bush's reclassification into another AFSC after suspension as a pilot
Anything at all from any Alabama unit with Bush's name on it
Anything proving service by Bush between May 1972 and May 1973
http://www.awolbush.com/kerry-vs-bush.asp
3 5 0
Still missing are:
Bush's DD-214
Any pages from Bush's flight log
Records from the Flight Inquiry Board convened after Bush was suspended as a pilot
Any evidence of Bush's reclassification into another AFSC after suspension as a pilot
Anything at all from any Alabama unit with Bush's name on it
Anything proving service by Bush between May 1972 and May 1973
Mr. Irrelevant
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 562
I don't really know if Kerry is a war hero. Really doubt it. He didn't do anything else I'd assume that was anything different from any other soldier/sailor who served in Vietnam.
However, Bush's entry into the guard was with a unit that had 7 Dallas Cowboys and the sons of 2 U.S. Senators. Big difference from someone who volunteers, whatever the reason behind it.
Let's not forget Cheney and his 5 student deferments. What a tough guy!!! Sadly they'll do whatever it takes to make Kerry look like a p-u-s-s-y and themselves like real stand-up guys instead of admitting it was a controversial war they wanted no part in.
If there really is a politician out there that could be called a hero, it would be McCain for never giving in to his Vietnamese captors. I've seen a video of him in captivity where they tried to get him to say he was being treated humanely, and I believe he did just the opposite, went a little nuts, gave the camera the finger, etc. Could have gotten himself killed and probably took some beatings for it.
The conservative nuts on this board would probably say in the same situation that Kerry would have given in and Bush and Cheney would have been real men and taken a McCain like stand!! Blah, Blah, Blah, BS!!!
When it comes down to it, Kerry has killed other human beings in service of his country. Big difference from the guys in office now.
Mr. I.
However, Bush's entry into the guard was with a unit that had 7 Dallas Cowboys and the sons of 2 U.S. Senators. Big difference from someone who volunteers, whatever the reason behind it.
Let's not forget Cheney and his 5 student deferments. What a tough guy!!! Sadly they'll do whatever it takes to make Kerry look like a p-u-s-s-y and themselves like real stand-up guys instead of admitting it was a controversial war they wanted no part in.
If there really is a politician out there that could be called a hero, it would be McCain for never giving in to his Vietnamese captors. I've seen a video of him in captivity where they tried to get him to say he was being treated humanely, and I believe he did just the opposite, went a little nuts, gave the camera the finger, etc. Could have gotten himself killed and probably took some beatings for it.
The conservative nuts on this board would probably say in the same situation that Kerry would have given in and Bush and Cheney would have been real men and taken a McCain like stand!! Blah, Blah, Blah, BS!!!
When it comes down to it, Kerry has killed other human beings in service of his country. Big difference from the guys in office now.
Mr. I.
MarineGrunt
Will kill for peace.
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2002
- Posts
- 1,854
Not uncommon if you ask me. I got out of the Marines 10 months ago and none of these dumbasses know where ANY of my records are. I'm new to the guard thing, but from what I am aware, it is possible for a guardsman to "drill out the year" in several weeks and then have no obligation for the rest of the Fiscal Year, thus having a "Sat" year. You CANNOT have a sat year without meeting the minimum amount of drills. If this were the case, and Bush's physical expired during that time, then yes, he would be off flying status. And no, they would probably not bother training him on another AFSC. (Do you know what that means by the way?)
It is also likely for reservists/guardsman to not "show-up" for training. Guardsman have civillian lives too and some circumstances do not allow them to attend a months training. This is normal and there are procedures for it.
But I suppose you were witness to all this and knew he had ill intentions..... or at least you read it on the internet or something....
It is also likely for reservists/guardsman to not "show-up" for training. Guardsman have civillian lives too and some circumstances do not allow them to attend a months training. This is normal and there are procedures for it.
But I suppose you were witness to all this and knew he had ill intentions..... or at least you read it on the internet or something....
MarineGrunt
Will kill for peace.
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2002
- Posts
- 1,854
MarineGrunt
Will kill for peace.
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2002
- Posts
- 1,854
Mr. Irrelevant
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 562
I'll bite Marine. I wish I had done military service at a much younger age. I don't believe they'd even take me at my age now. Not an excuse but at least I'd have the sack to say I don't want to serve right now as opposed to opting for student deferments or call my father and get into a guard slot as a "volunteer"! It was a cushy slot Marine and you and everyone else on the Repub side knows it. It doesn't mean he isn't a good or bad president. I'm just tired of seeing the GOP blow smoke up our asses about Kerry being such a p-u-s-s-y when their guy "volunteered" for a unit that was clearly set up to give special priveleges to those with connections.
Maybe we should think of the reason behind the lack of volunteers for the services. I doubt anyone here would hold back on volunteering if the world were faced with a WWII situation again. This war on terror is not the same and deserves to be in Afganistan and Pakistan until Osama is toast! It is there obviously but not with the force it could have. Why?? Because we went to Iraq on some BS WMD scare. That's a whole other political quagmire now that I really don't believe Bush nor Kerry has the faintest clue how to handle. And neither do I.
Mr. I.
Maybe we should think of the reason behind the lack of volunteers for the services. I doubt anyone here would hold back on volunteering if the world were faced with a WWII situation again. This war on terror is not the same and deserves to be in Afganistan and Pakistan until Osama is toast! It is there obviously but not with the force it could have. Why?? Because we went to Iraq on some BS WMD scare. That's a whole other political quagmire now that I really don't believe Bush nor Kerry has the faintest clue how to handle. And neither do I.
Mr. I.
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