Just got this e-mail.

[Hulk Hogan]

For a second I almost thought it was from that certain "state school aviation program". They just installed one of those CRJ FTD's.

I wouldn't be shocked if they tried to sell soemthing like this.

............. Ha Ha, I just heard about that one. As always (that certain flight school) is a day behind everyone else. As much luck as they had keeping that other moving FTD working I can't imagine this program will be much different or more successful.

 

[avrorj-85]

Minimum wage

The problem here isn't just that airlines are hiring people with very few hours, it is just that WHEN they hire pilots , they pay like dirt. I have no problem with people getting hired at an airline with less than the number of hours I had when I was hired. The problem is that as a general rule these low time pilots are the ones that are the most willing to work for peanuts and yes even pay to get their job. The problem is with the airlines and the whole system, not necessarily the pilots getting hired. Avro Jockey made a very good point that in the long run a "minumum wage" would help everyone, INCLUDING those low time pilots now suffering from Shiny Jet Syndrome. Where will all you guys be 5, 10, 15 years from now? Do you want to be making the same wages that you are making now? If a nationwide seniority list or minumum pay for airlines were put into effect you would stand to gain far more down the road than you every would lose in the short term. So what if you have to instruct or fly freight for a year or two to actually earn your flight time and experience. I went that road, I enjoyed it, and I am a better pilot for it. Skilled trades such as plumbers and electricians have used this system for years. The unions set the wages in a certain area and if another licensed person comes in and tries to undercut those wages, well they do not work in that area again because they basically get blacklisted by the union. Their system is not perfect but it beats the heck out of the one we have in place in our industry where regionals (mostly from the SAME union) bid against each other to lower the wage bar and swipe flying from one another. It may be painful for EVERYONE (including some senior people)for a couple of years but as I said, we would all be better off for it.

Just my .02 worth.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

IMHO ALPA should be installing hiring minimums in collective bargaining agreements. If there were minimums of say, 2000TT/800ME, it would decrease the supply of qualifiied pilots, and raise the median wage rate. It would aslo make PFT programs cost prohibitive, candidates would be forced to earn it the "old fashioned way," and therefore gain the proper experience to effectively manage as a airline pilot.

The way ALPA would install mins is raising new hire pay. The problem is the majority of the pilots are not on first year pay. So why would they give up negotioating capital for new hires? Air Line Pilots don't control management. How are you going to get management to agree to mins as you suggests? The big question: HOW?

Right now UAL pays $31/hour first year pay. Regionals $19. FedEx $50. Does FedEx have a problem attracting qualified pilots? ALPA can't set hiring mins but they can negotiate first year pay.

the answer is a single seniority list, with ALPA setting the bar as far as who is qualified to fly airliners! ALPA should be setting the hiring minimums, and setting the training standards! In fact, one could go as far as ALPA doing the hiring and the training of airline pilots and then supplying them to the airlines. They would totally control the supply!

Single seniority list don't work. Look at it this way. If it were such a great idea... then why isn't it real?

How can ALPA control training standards? At the company? HOW? At the FAA? How? ALPA can influence an AQP program, but that is not control...

HOW will ALPA control the supply? How would ALPA gain control?

The later senario is a little unrealistic, but ALPA could certainly have a single senoirity list and set the hiring minimum though CBA's! I know the single senoirity list might provide short term road bumps for some, but it would certainly be worth it in the long run!

The single sen. list is a great idea during these poor economic times we are in. But as soon as the growth starts the single or National Sen. list will be a problem. We can't have it both ways.

How would it be worth it in the long run? Can you detail how a single seniorty list would be good? Provide scanarios and examples...

 

[Joe Schmo]

My friend, the subject matter is all about resenting the money other people have that you never had and the relatively easier path (time/effort, etc.) these graduates took to the airline industry than you.

Thats my exact point, you just said it.

It has nothing to do with total flight time, but the willinginess to work for slave wages. Whats the next step working for free because someone was born into a wealthy family. This is the attitude that airline management strives on.

 

[AvroJockey]

The way ALPA would install mins is raising new hire pay. The problem is the majority of the pilots are not on first year pay. So why would they give up negotioating capital for new hires? Air Line Pilots don't control management. How are you going to get management to agree to mins as you suggests? The big question: HOW?

Right now UAL pays $31/hour first year pay. Regionals $19. FedEx $50. Does FedEx have a problem attracting qualified pilots? ALPA can't set hiring mins but they can negotiate first year pay.

I don't think you understand my point on this...I do care about the experience level of new hire pilots for safety reasons, but more importantly the economics. Let me paint the picture for you:
Let's say all airlines had minimums of just 500TT, and were actively hiring pilots with this low time. That makes becoming an airline pilot relatively easy, and increases the supply of qualified pilots. Using basic economics, one can predict, that in time, the median labor price (wages) will fall. This is virtually fact, and the airlines, especially regionals, know it. Jonathan Orenstein is a master at this...even created his own puppy mill to supply his slave labor!!!

The hiring minimums are set through negotiations (the CBA)...I would make it a strike item!!! The goal is not to set higher wages to attract qualified pilots, but define what's a qualified pilot and attract higher wages. Economically speaking, if you decrease the supply of labor by setting higher minimums, you naturally end up with higher wages. Instead of ALPA setting the wages (which is a proven failure, just look at our wages relative to inflation over the years...pathetic!!!!!!!!!), the company has to raise wages on their own to attract pilots who meet the minimums.

Single seniority list don't work. Look at it this way. If it were such a great idea... then why isn't it real?

That's not a valid argument! The reason lies with the instant gratification that all American's must have! Merging seniority lists will certainly cause growing pains for some, but the long term gains would be worth it.

Tell me...what are the advantages of separate seniority lists over single?

How would it be worth it in the long run? Can you detail how a single seniorty list would be good? Provide scanarios and examples...

A single seniority list would have at least the following benefits:

• Eliminates pilot group competition, everyone is doing what benefits everyone.
• Negotiating leverage, because it includes ALL airline pilots.
• Pilots can move from airline to airline and not loose seniority, which would require airlines to make their pilots happy to prevent attrition and higher costs associated with such movement.
• The most important of all, when times get tuff airlines can't point to the lower cost of pilot labor at competing airlines. If all airline pilots are paid the same, it eliminates the pilot labor cost variable from the equation. It would simply parallel airfare taxes, landing fees, and PFCs, where the cost is just passed to the consumer. Industry downturns are the main reason why our wages haven't kept up with inflation...we just give everything back!

How can ALPA control training standards? At the company? HOW? At the FAA? How? ALPA can influence an AQP program, but that is not control...

Just as other unions and other professional associations! For example, the American Medical Association. They set the standard for who can be a doctor, and because that standard is high, not everyone can do it. This keeps the supply of doctors low, and the wages high. They even have a council that constantly evaluates education and certification requirements.

Another example, home appraisers. If you were a freelance home appraiser you could make $300 for about 1 hours worth of work! Guess what...it's not easy becoming an appraiser. You can't just go to appraisal school, get certified, and get a job. The Appraisal Foundation, as authorized by Congress, sets the educational standard for appraisers, which includes apprentice time. They can indirectly control the supply of appraisers!!! Here is a link to their website, which shows the standards. Take a look at experience requirement...kinda funny that you need 250hrs to become a commercial pilot, and 2000hrs to become a licensed appraiser!

 

[The_Russian]

That makes becoming an airline pilot relatively easy, and increases the supply of qualified pilots.

The supply of pilots happens to be a constant. If someone wants to be a pilot, they will go the fastest was neccessary to their career path. If it involves 500, hours or 2000 hours, it is all the same. The FAA is to blame for making it "easy" to become a pilot.

The regionals are at low pay because the pilots allowed the low pay to be established in the first place. They knew that they would only be at the regional level for 2-3 years. Now everyone is stuck because America was attacked and there was an economic fallout.

 

[The_Russian]

Just as other unions and other professional associations! For example, the American Medical Association. They set the standard for who can be a doctor, and because that standard is high, not everyone can do it. This keeps the supply of doctors low, and the wages high. They even have a council that constantly evaluates education and certification requirements.

I believe that this can actually work. An aviation organization that makes it difficult to become a career pilot by raising standard. If you do it, I will support it! First, we have to take out the AOPA.

 

[ReportCanoa]

No, your future has no bearing on mine, and mine has no bearing on yours. It's a simple case of dislike for those who have had a relatively easy 'path' to airline industry than you and I did.

Those who could afford to go UND/ERAU/Purdue, can apply to regionals with as little as 300TT and 50 ME...now, to you, that's UNACCEPTABLE, isn't it?

They are not any different than these 'would-be' Jet University graduates.

As for as 'pay for training', anyone EVER, who didn't come through the military, PAID FOR TRAINING. When you've paid so much to get the CAX ME, CFI, etc., why not pay little more, if you could afford, and 'get in' quicker?

How many of you on this board bought ME time? I know 100s of airline pilots who have bought ME time and flew mindless X-countries, but were able to cut the line to the interview room based simply on the fact that they could afford to BUY the ME time, when others couldn't. Not ANY different than ‘paying for training’.

I have one person flying with me right now who did exactly that...went to Ari Ben (I think that's what the outfits name is) and bought 100 hours.

Would you buy 100 ME if it guarantees you A320 flying?

I WOULD IN A HEART BEAT!

This post demonstrates your lack of credibility. When you spend years flying with the low time goofballs, regardless of where they "graduated", you'll understand that some of these guys do not belong around airplanes. Go fly your Barron. Whatever that is.

 

[AvroJockey]

The supply of pilots happens to be a constant. If someone wants to be a pilot, they will go the fastest was neccessary to their career path. If it involves 500, hours or 2000 hours, it is all the same. The FAA is to blame for making it "easy" to become a pilot.

The regionals are at low pay because the pilots allowed the low pay to be established in the first place. They knew that they would only be at the regional level for 2-3 years. Now everyone is stuck because America was attacked and there was an economic fallout.

There is a huge difference between 500 and 2000...400% to be exact! It would be cost prohibitive to PFT to get 2000TT.

Read a Microeconomics textbook, the Chapter on labor costs/wages, and the economic role of unions...then see if hold the same opinion. ALPA is failing us on this front.

 

[The_Russian]

It would be cost prohibitive to PFT to get 2000TT.

People would build time or even use the P-51, then PFT at 2000 hours to get in front of you. I think your idea would help. It would absolutely help, but it wouldn't stop the rich fellows from getting there.

 

[avrorj-85]

...

Mr. Avrojockey your well thought out ideas are a breath of fresh air to the normal stupidity on these boards. Why are you wasting your time talking to the pilot wannabees here when you should be running against DW for the ALPA prez job.

It is amazing what a little bit of logic will do. Too bad ALPA national hasn't thought of that yet...

 

[mac36]

The core of the this PFT/SJS debate is not whether 500 pilots can fly a CRJ, any monkey can be trained to fly an airplane. The problem is hiring pilots with low time increases the supply of pilots, or "qualified" candidates! These people are suppressing the career progression of the pilot group as a whole, at least pay wise, and shooting themselves in the foot. Don't you ever wonder why these programs are sponsored by airlines! Managements want this to happen, because economically, it increases the supply of airline pilots, and therefore decreases the labor price (wage rate). That's why people are pissed off!!! Especially because ALPA is not doing anything about it, and that is part of their job as a union...controlling supply, to get the highest wages! Read any microeconomics text and it will tell you this.

BTW, as I said previously, anyone can learn how to fly a CRJ, physical flying isn't hard! It's the management of airline flying that is tasking. Effective management if based on mainly on judgement, not skill. One can learn judgement through training but mostly through practical experience, and PFT's don't have practical experience. One might content that FO's will gain said experience in the right seat! This is complete BS! Though we all learn things every day, Regular Line Captain's are not there to teach you how to fly a CRJ. If this is what is going on, you are a liability, and threat to aviation safety.

quote]

You seem to be saying contradictory things here. Is it easy to fly or not? If it's easy, a month or two in the right seat should bring most semi intelligent people up to speed on performing the tasks required of a second in command.

Another thing the majority of folks who bitch about low timers seem to miss, is the fact that "street captains" get hired at many of the regional carriers. This happens solely because there are large numbers of first officers out there who don't have the experience to upgrade. Increase the average experience level of the junior pilot in the workforce and you job hoppers can kiss the "street captain" concept goodbye.

 

[8HourPilot]

I was going to call your 17,000 hours BS, but after reading your post, and seeing your ability to quote paprgraphs.....I believe it to be true. Welcome to the 21st century gramps.

 

[AvroJockey]

You seem to be saying contradictory things here. Is it easy to fly or not? If it's easy, a month or two in the right seat should bring most semi intelligent people up to speed on performing the tasks required of a second in command.

Another thing the majority of folks who bitch about low timers seem to miss, is the fact that "street captains" get hired at many of the regional carriers. This happens solely because there are large numbers of first officers out there who don't have the experience to upgrade. Increase the average experience level of the junior pilot in the workforce and you job hoppers can kiss the "street captain" concept goodbye.

It is easy to physically fly any of todays advanced airliners. It is not easy to manage the other aspects of the job, especially when the stuff hit the fans...that's where experience kicks in!

If ALPA were to implement a single seniority list, on could go from one airline to the other and keep their seniority. Voala(sp?)...street Captains!

 

[Stifler's Mom]

We have just installed a new state of the art $3 Million Dollar CRJ 200 Flight Training Device (with stunning graphics comparable to any Level D Simulator!) in our Jet University Campus facility here at FXE airport, where you will receive 52 hours of flight training.



Feel free to call with any questions that you may have!

I gave them a call about their FTD, and received this link from them.

Flight Training Device Photo.