Just got this e-mail.

[hockeypilot44]

The core of the this PFT/SJS debate is not whether 500 pilots can fly a CRJ, any monkey can be trained to fly an airplane. The problem is hiring pilots with low time increases the supply of pilots, or "qualified" candidates! These people are suppressing the career progression of the pilot group as a whole, at least pay wise, and shooting themselves in the foot. Don't you ever wonder why these programs are sponsored by airlines! Managements want this to happen, because economically, it increases the supply of airline pilots, and therefore decreases the labor price (wage rate). That's why people are pissed off!!! Especially because ALPA is not doing anything about it, and that is part of their job as a union...controlling supply, to get the highest wages! Read any microeconomics text and it will tell you this.

Excellent point!!! I totally agree with this view. Airlines, especially regionals, love pilot factories. It keeps their supply of fresh meat fresh. Which in turn allows them to keep the course to the bottom. Their idialogy during these times is that if you don't like it, don't let the door hit you in back cause they got a thousad juniors waiting in line salivating for your spot. Supply and demand is not on the pilot's side yet.Too many kids with unlimited bank accounts that want to be just like top gun.

That is probably one of the best ideas I have ever seen on this board. It would not help mainline, but it would be a start to driving up regional wages.

 

[Joe Schmo]

So, are we jealous of those people who might be able to put finances together which you couldn't?

And your reference of 'old fashion', does that mean you should be given a priority over those who could didn't have to make $8/hour as CFIs? Huh.

Bunny

Maybe you should resist shooting off your mouth until either one of two things happen:

1.) You exceed the 1200 hour mark and actually work in the airline industry

2.) Develop the slightest clue of what the subject matter is

Not to put you down, but pay for training programs is what lower the standards of this industry.

 

[hopalong]

The core of the this PFT/SJS debate is not whether 500 pilots can fly a CRJ, any monkey can be trained to fly an airplane. The problem is hiring pilots with low time increases the supply of pilots, or "qualified" candidates! These people are suppressing the career progression of the pilot group as a whole, at least pay wise, and shooting themselves in the foot. Don't you ever wonder why these programs are sponsored by airlines! Managements want this to happen, because economically, it increases the supply of airline pilots, and therefore decreases the labor price (wage rate). That's why people are pissed off!!! Especially because ALPA is not doing anything about it, and that is part of their job as a union...controlling supply, to get the highest wages! Read any microeconomics text and it will tell you this.

BTW, as I said previously, anyone can learn how to fly a CRJ, physical flying isn't hard! It's the management of airline flying that is tasking. Effective management if based on mainly on judgement, not skill. One can learn judgement through training but mostly through practical experience, and PFT's don't have practical experience. One might content that FO's will gain said experience in the right seat! This is complete BS! Though we all learn things every day, Regular Line Captain's are not there to teach you how to fly a CRJ. If this is what is going on, you are a liability, and threat to aviation safety.

IMHO ALPA should be installing hiring minimums in collective bargaining agreements. If there were minimums of say, 2000TT/800ME, it would decrease the supply of qualifiied pilots, and raise the median wage rate. It would aslo make PFT programs cost prohibitive, candidates would be forced to earn it the "old fashioned way," and therefore gain the proper experience to effectively manage as a airline pilot.

AMEN!!!!

 

[ballsdeep123]

The core of the this PFT/SJS debate is not whether 500 pilots can fly a CRJ, any monkey can be trained to fly an airplane. The problem is hiring pilots with low time increases the supply of pilots, or "qualified" candidates! These people are suppressing the career progression of the pilot group as a whole, at least pay wise, and shooting themselves in the foot. Don't you ever wonder why these programs are sponsored by airlines! Managements want this to happen, because economically, it increases the supply of airline pilots, and therefore decreases the labor price (wage rate). That's why people are pissed off!!! Especially because ALPA is not doing anything about it, and that is part of their job as a union...controlling supply, to get the highest wages! Read any microeconomics text and it will tell you this.

BTW, as I said previously, anyone can learn how to fly a CRJ, physical flying isn't hard! It's the management of airline flying that is tasking. Effective management if based on mainly on judgement, not skill. One can learn judgement through training but mostly through practical experience, and PFT's don't have practical experience. One might content that FO's will gain said experience in the right seat! This is complete BS! Though we all learn things every day, Regular Line Captain's are not there to teach you how to fly a CRJ. If this is what is going on, you are a liability, and threat to aviation safety.

IMHO ALPA should be installing hiring minimums in collective bargaining agreements. If there were minimums of say, 2000TT/800ME, it would decrease the supply of qualifiied pilots, and raise the median wage rate. It would aslo make PFT programs cost prohibitive, candidates would be forced to earn it the "old fashioned way," and therefore gain the proper experience to effectively manage as a airline pilot.

AvroJockey,

That is the best anaylisis of anything I've ever read on here. I hope the people who do programs like this, or who think it's pilots being jealous about not being able to have the "finances" to do programs like this will get the point. Unfortunately, people who support these types of things probably won't learn until they've got the sinny jet syndrome out of their systems and have been screwed by managment at an airline.

At the airline I work for, I have heard an alarming amount of complaints from captains about the new F/O's who lack basic flying skills. I'm sure they did great in the sim and in training, but there is a certain amout of decision making and basic skills that are learned from "doing it the old fashion way". Captains shouldn't have to be flight instructors.

 

[BuzzSaw]

Nothing!!

There will be saps willing to do it..... because it is cool....

BuzzSaw

 

[FlyBunny]

I think the BIG question is how did you end up on their email list? The rest of us didn't get that email.

Good point.

I didn't get that email either.

 

[FlyBunny]

The core of the this PFT/SJS debate is not whether 500 pilots can fly a CRJ, any monkey can be trained to fly an airplane. The problem is hiring pilots with low time increases the supply of pilots, or "qualified" candidates! These people are suppressing the career progression of the pilot group as a whole, at least pay wise, and shooting themselves in the foot. Don't you ever wonder why these programs are sponsored by airlines! Managements want this to happen, because economically, it increases the supply of airline pilots, and therefore decreases the labor price (wage rate). That's why people are pissed off!!! Especially because ALPA is not doing anything about it, and that is part of their job as a union...controlling supply, to get the highest wages! Read any microeconomics text and it will tell you this.

BTW, as I said previously, anyone can learn how to fly a CRJ, physical flying isn't hard! It's the management of airline flying that is tasking. Effective management if based on mainly on judgement, not skill. One can learn judgement through training but mostly through practical experience, and PFT's don't have practical experience. One might content that FO's will gain said experience in the right seat! This is complete BS! Though we all learn things every day, Regular Line Captain's are not there to teach you how to fly a CRJ. If this is what is going on, you are a liability, and threat to aviation safety.

IMHO ALPA should be installing hiring minimums in collective bargaining agreements. If there were minimums of say, 2000TT/800ME, it would decrease the supply of qualifiied pilots, and raise the median wage rate. It would aslo make PFT programs cost prohibitive, candidates would be forced to earn it the "old fashioned way," and therefore gain the proper experience to effectively manage as a airline pilot.

I must say if there’s a ‘height’ of selfishness, I see that in any pilot group. It’s all about ‘ME, MY PROGRESS, MY CAREER BUT I DON’T’ CARE ABOUT YOU, I DON’T KNOW YOU, YOU DON’T KNOW ME, BUT I WANT YOU TO CARE ABOUT ME’.

Wow…why on this earth should I – in that case Jet University enrollees care about you or your future. They have to see what’s in it for them. If the program is good, and get them what they ‘want’ at the end, then my friend, more power to them. As per your theory, UND/ERAU/many other four-year schools, should be banned from establishing internship programs with regional/major airlines, because, it’d would surprise you to find out, that most of those who interned are hired with lot less hours than those who have ‘paid’ their dues.

You know…I have NEVER seen the level of ‘selfishness’ and this kind of view for the new hires or the system itself in any other field (Medical/Engineering/Law, etc.). It’s only in flying (regional/major airlines) that it’s so prevalent to assume that you should have every thing and if there was a degree of physical, financial, logistical difficulty or the time period it took you to get the job, then no one else should be allowed to reach this point without suffering the way you did (what you call ‘paid my dues).

I have no problem with anything like that. In Europe we have pilots flying A320s, even 747s with less than 1000 hours. It’s different for everyone. Live and Let Live!

Get over it!

 

[FlyBunny]

Maybe you should resist shooting off your mouth until either one of two things happen:

1.) You exceed the 1200 hour mark and actually work in the airline industry

2.) Develop the slightest clue of what the subject matter is

Not to put you down, but pay for training programs is what lower the standards of this industry.

How do I know you work in the airline industry?

How do I verify your logged time? (Must say that 1,500 hours is quite impressive, I don’t know if I’d ever reach that benchmark)

My friend, the subject matter is all about resenting the money other people have that you never had and the relatively easier path (time/effort, etc.) these graduates took to the airline industry than you.

What is the ‘Standard’ of this industry? I’m sure that with 1,500 TT (will I ever reach that?), you’ve developed and absolute expertise in what the standards are and what they should be…so, why not enlighten us.

I don’t know how long you’ve been on this board, but I’m stuck on 1,200 for many years now. What can I do to exceed that?

 

[ReverseSensing]

Wow…why on this earth should I – in that case Jet University enrollees care about you or your future.

I'm not surprised you don't get it, but it's really quite simple: they should care because our future is their future.

 

[FlyBunny]

No, your future has no bearing on mine, and mine has no bearing on yours. It's a simple case of dislike for those who have had a relatively easy 'path' to airline industry than you and I did.

Those who could afford to go UND/ERAU/Purdue, can apply to regionals with as little as 300TT and 50 ME...now, to you, that's UNACCEPTABLE, isn't it?

They are not any different than these 'would-be' Jet University graduates.

As for as 'pay for training', anyone EVER, who didn't come through the military, PAID FOR TRAINING. When you've paid so much to get the CAX ME, CFI, etc., why not pay little more, if you could afford, and 'get in' quicker?

How many of you on this board bought ME time? I know 100s of airline pilots who have bought ME time and flew mindless X-countries, but were able to cut the line to the interview room based simply on the fact that they could afford to BUY the ME time, when others couldn't. Not ANY different than ‘paying for training’.

I have one person flying with me right now who did exactly that...went to Ari Ben (I think that's what the outfits name is) and bought 100 hours.

Would you buy 100 ME if it guarantees you A320 flying?

I WOULD IN A HEART BEAT!

 

[ReverseSensing]

No, your future has no bearing on mine, and mine has no bearing on yours. It's a simple case of dislike for those who have had a relatively easy 'path' to airline industry than you and I did.

I'm pretty sure you don't know me, so I don't think you have any idea what it's a case of. I assure you it has nothing to do with dislike.

Those who could afford to go UND/ERAU/Purdue, can apply to regionals with as little as 300TT and 50 ME...now, to you, that's UNACCEPTABLE, isn't it?

Since I'm not in a position to hire other pilots, I'm in no position to determine what is and isn't acceptable. No one has asked my opinion on the subject recently, nor have I offered it.

As for as 'pay for training', anyone EVER, who didn't come through the military, PAID FOR TRAINING. When you've paid so much to get the CAX ME, CFI, etc., why not pay little more, if you could afford, and 'get in' quicker?

How many of you on this board bought ME time? I know 100s of airline pilots who have bought ME time and flew mindless X-countries, but were able to cut the line to the interview room based simply on the fact that they could afford to BUY the ME time, when others couldn't. Not ANY different than ‘paying for training’.

I have one person flying with me right now who did exactly that...went to Ari Ben (I think that's what the outfits name is) and bought 100 hours.

Would you buy 100 ME if it guarantees you A320 flying?

I WOULD IN A HEART BEAT!

As has been pointed out in this thread, if it were possible to make it so expensive to buy the entry-level times to be a 121 pilot that virtually no one could do so, we'd all be better off. Pilots would have to find ways to reach a higher threshold of hiring mins other than a fat bank account, such as working at entry-level flying jobs (and I don't consider a jet FO an entry-level job). This would have the desired effect of decreasing the supply of pilots, increasing the demand, and raising all of our standards of living.

Fast-trackers should care about the impact their actions are having on the profession because they will have to live with that impact. Low entry costs equal low demand/high supply equal low wages. Simple as that.

I know folks are always looking for ways to game the system. And the airline industry and FAA are their best accomplices.

 

[bizzum]

No, your future has no bearing on mine, and mine has no bearing on yours. It's a simple case of dislike for those who have had a relatively easy 'path' to airline industry than you and I did.

Those who could afford to go UND/ERAU/Purdue, can apply to regionals with as little as 300TT and 50 ME...now, to you, that's UNACCEPTABLE, isn't it?

They are not any different than these 'would-be' Jet University graduates.

As for as 'pay for training', anyone EVER, who didn't come through the military, PAID FOR TRAINING. When you've paid so much to get the CAX ME, CFI, etc., why not pay little more, if you could afford, and 'get in' quicker?

How many of you on this board bought ME time? I know 100s of airline pilots who have bought ME time and flew mindless X-countries, but were able to cut the line to the interview room based simply on the fact that they could afford to BUY the ME time, when others couldn't. Not ANY different than ‘paying for training’.

I have one person flying with me right now who did exactly that...went to Ari Ben (I think that's what the outfits name is) and bought 100 hours.

Would you buy 100 ME if it guarantees you A320 flying?

I WOULD IN A HEART BEAT!

Buying a block of multi time, or paying for your certificates is not the big issure here, the big PFT issue is PAYING for a job that someone should be PAID to do, such as any airline that makes your PAY to sit in the right seat when someone should be PAID to fly in that right seat. The thing that is unreal to me about this 20 grand "CRJ course" is that if you really had an extra 20 grand laying around, and you really want to spend it on something that could help you beyond going to pinnacle, you could get your MEI, and still have 18,000 in your pocket. Go get a job instructing, get some experience, and use the remaining money to help you live on for a year or two, THEN go to the regionals and fly a CRJ for a company you want to work for.

 

[ChoadSnazz]

Would you buy 100 ME if it guarantees you A320 flying?

I WOULD IN A HEART BEAT!

FlyBunny,

Okay - great. What would you be willing to fly that A320 for - $20/hr? $30/hr?
$40/hr?

If the answer to any of these is yes, you are part of the problem.

 

[AvroJockey]

I must say if there’s a ‘height’ of selfishness, I see that in any pilot group. It’s all about ‘ME, MY PROGRESS, MY CAREER BUT I DON’T’ CARE ABOUT YOU, I DON’T KNOW YOU, YOU DON’T KNOW ME, BUT I WANT YOU TO CARE ABOUT ME’.

Wow…why on this earth should I – in that case Jet University enrollees care about you or your future. They have to see what’s in it for them. If the program is good, and get them what they ‘want’ at the end, then my friend, more power to them. As per your theory, UND/ERAU/many other four-year schools, should be banned from establishing internship programs with regional/major airlines, because, it’d would surprise you to find out, that most of those who interned are hired with lot less hours than those who have ‘paid’ their dues.

You know…I have NEVER seen the level of ‘selfishness’ and this kind of view for the new hires or the system itself in any other field (Medical/Engineering/Law, etc.). It’s only in flying (regional/major airlines) that it’s so prevalent to assume that you should have every thing and if there was a degree of physical, financial, logistical difficulty or the time period it took you to get the job, then no one else should be allowed to reach this point without suffering the way you did (what you call ‘paid my dues).

Your missing my point! Re-read my post, and you'll find I'm indeed looking out for the future of those pilots, as should ALPA!!! Our wage rates have not kept up with inflation, and this one of the reasons why. Yet ALPA is still resorting to archaic, pre-deregulation tactics. There are pleanty of unions and professional associations that have used economics to increase wages (the trades, doctors, etc.).

You can also read ReverseSensing's post's, he gets it!

I have no problem with anything like that. In Europe we have pilots flying A320s, even 747s with less than 1000 hours. It’s different for everyone. Live and Let Live!

And why don't you let everyone know how long those FO's fly with instructors/check airmen when they get out of training...and let everyone know how long they stay in the right seat before upgrading.

FO's in the States have only 20-25 hours (depending what group aircraft it is) of initial line operating experience with an instructor, before they fly with regular line Captains, and those "regular" Captains may only have 6 months of 121 experience with the bare ATP minimums (1500 hrs). This is a deadly combination! These pilots may have Chuck Yeager and Bud Anderson skills, but they are a threat to avaition safety because of their inexperience

 

[AvroJockey]

Well.. lot's of observations here about how jacked up this is....

Question is what are or can you do about it?







Anyone?

the answer is a single seniority list, with ALPA setting the bar as far as who is qualified to fly airliners! ALPA should be setting the hiring minimums, and setting the training standards! In fact, one could go as far as ALPA doing the hiring and the training of airline pilots and then supplying them to the airlines. They would totally control the supply!

The later senario is a little unrealistic, but ALPA could certainly have a single senoirity list and set the hiring minimum though CBA's! I know the single senoirity list might provide short term road bumps for some, but it would certainly be worth it in the long run!