Joe the Plummer says, "Bring back the -9's"

[clippyrip]

A 70 seat jet is not a 70 seat turboprop. I personally would like to see both at mainline, but they are not the same.

I AGREE. If they brought Q400s to mainline, that is all I would ever fly and bid. What a great airplane. Honestly.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Wait a second...

I wasn't trying to start a pissing contest about regional versus mainline. That has been done ad naseum. I was troubled that CL65 seemed to be taking a stance of irritation with the same group of pilots that he came from. That was all. So long as he doesn't forget how he got where he is, I have no issues.

Back on point...

Some of the NWA DC-9 (-10's I think) were the same size as the "regional" jets that operate today at regional carriers. Same equipment, same routes...different pilots.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Like I said my drunk Irish buddy, it has nothing to do with the pilots. You and I worked at that level and have moved on. There is nothing wrong with the pilots.

Point is that, we both watched 1000's of mainline jobs go bye bye after 9-11 to the regionals. Pilots had nothing to do with it. It had to do with scope and management knowing when to strike.
Putting flying back on mainline is a huge priority. I am glad to see it shift the other way.

As you say the classic 9's were the size of present day RJ's. Does that not bother you a little bit? The new CRJ 1000 is the length of an 88. Those 170's and 175's are great jets. Why should we let those jobs out the back door of mainline flying? We should not. We allow enough of those, and the next thing you will see is no small gage flying for mainline.

 

[jetflier]

NWA post CH11 contract has pay scales in the contract that now have become part of the new Delta contract.

The problem is the rate of pay. If a large RJ replaces the DC-9 the affected pilots are given a 40% pay cut for the same job. Not good.

NWA ALPA let the fox in the hen-house when the company insisted that the large rj was not a DC-9 replacement. For doing so they would have to have had established the replacement pay rate, which was the current DC-9 payrate.

Either NWA ALPA negotiators were blind sighted or stupid.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I think that the whole problem resulted from ego.

 

[~~~^~~~]

NWA ALPA let the fox in the hen-house when the company insisted that the large rj was not a DC-9 replacement. For doing so they would have to have had established the replacement pay rate, which was the current DC-9 payrate.

Either NWA ALPA negotiators were blind sighted or stupid.

I follow your logic, but Steenland was always pretty outspoken about the RJ's replacing DC9's. ALPA was not stupid, they thought they knew what they were doing and they were selling the junior guys down the river to try to protect legacy pay for senior pilots on big equipment. They sold our flying.

NWA ALPA's testimony in the SLI hearing was the DC9's replacement would pay RJ rates and your MEC is not alone in getting RJ rates on your contract for this sized airplane. The Delta contract has CRJ900 rates that are average for the equipment. Our joint contract carries these forward.

Our union never intended to fight to keep DC9's / 737-200's on the property. At the most senior levels, they WANT these airplanes outsourced in the belief that it will preserve their legacy pay rates on big equipment. During bankruptcy negotiations at Delta, there was a six hundred million dollar credit given for negotiating scope and pay rates on airplanes Delta mainline did not even fly.

The negotiation of RJ rates at Delta were (again my opinion) negotiated to cap the salary demands at ASA and Comair, who were in negotiations at the time.

This failed, divided, logic has resulted in all of our pay rates coming down as our flying has been outsourced to the lowest bidders who we must now compete with.

We have good people in office now. Although ALPA is responsible for this mess, they are our best hope for fixing it. With both our pilot groups together, I am hopeful we can turn the direction of the tide on outsourcing our flying.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Fair enough fin. Take away a negotiation base for future contracts, or ego, the result is the same. We now have to not only worry about management giving us lower pay rates, but farming out our flying.

 

[~~~^~~~]

ACL, I edited my post.

One of the largest questions has always been, "why did you guys outsource RJ flying?" The answer really surprised me. To some it is logical to outsource any airplane smaller than the one you currently fly - IF - you can exchange that flying for better pay rates on your larger equipment.

IE the 777 guys think it is OK to outsource the 757 to preserve the standards of legacy pay and international flying. The 757 guys think the MD88 can be outsourced. The MD88 guys think - WHOA!

It's B scale, but really it is a whole lot worse. How much was 76 seat scope worth? Some can tell you $600,000,000.00, was it about the ego, or the money?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Well quite true, money decides all. If you talk to people that were around during that time, it was money, but also the fact that mainline pilots did not fly airplanes that small.
Kind of funny when you see what a small airplane does these days....

 

[~~~^~~~]

Well quite true, money decides all. If you talk to people that were around during that time, it was money, but also the fact that mainline pilots did not fly airplanes that small.

Sadly, mainline pilots DID fly airplanes that small. You know the history of the DC9 and 737.

Some flew with us at ASA, Comair and other airlines while they were on furlough. They were excellent pilots with good attitudes, despite the lousy circumstances that had them our right seats making nothing for their work.

In my book, the attitudes and perseverance of those pilots makes them awfully good guys. I know you feel the same.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Agreed. I was talking about in the early 90's

The people from the majors we flew with while they were on furlough were first rate. Some of the best individuals I have ever met.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Like I said my drunk Irish buddy, it has nothing to do with the pilots. You and I worked at that level and have moved on. There is nothing wrong with the pilots.

Point is that, we both watched 1000's of mainline jobs go bye bye after 9-11 to the regionals. Pilots had nothing to do with it. It had to do with scope and management knowing when to strike.
Putting flying back on mainline is a huge priority. I am glad to see it shift the other way.

As you say the classic 9's were the size of present day RJ's. Does that not bother you a little bit? The new CRJ 1000 is the length of an 88. Those 170's and 175's are great jets. Why should we let those jobs out the back door of mainline flying? We should not. We allow enough of those, and the next thing you will see is no small gage flying for mainline.

Yes it does bother me. In the 90's, I was perfectly content to fly my little Beech 1900 and my little Embraer T-prop until I gained enough experience to be considered for a job at the legacy carriers. Then rj's came and 9-11 came. I had little choice but to find a new job flying one of the barbie jets because it was the only way I could be competitive for a job at those legacies. It was a sh$t sandwich that we were all forced to take a bite out of; otherwise, we wouldn't get anywhere else. I blame ALPA National for this and I always have.

I advocate one brand, one pilot group. Any pilot that thinks they are too good to fly a B-1900 is just feeding the problem. If you don't want to fly it, don't bid it! If that is all your seniority holds, then tough sh$t...resign if you don't want to fly it.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Totally agree. As I was finally "qualified" and hire-able at the majors all of the RJ's showed up. The t-props went away and guess what. The "qualifications" changed.

I agree we need one brand and one group. We should not have to give anything up for it, but I was not born yesterday. I know I am willing to fight for it.

 

[PuffDriver]

Yes it does bother me. In the 90's, I was perfectly content to fly my little Beech 1900 and my little Embraer T-prop until I gained enough experience to be considered for a job at the legacy carriers. Then rj's came and 9-11 came. I had little choice but to find a new job flying one of the barbie jets because it was the only way I could be competitive for a job at those legacies. It was a sh$t sandwich that we were all forced to take a bite out of; otherwise, we wouldn't get anywhere else. I blame ALPA National for this and I always have.

I advocate one brand, one pilot group. Any pilot that thinks they are too good to fly a B-1900 is just feeding the problem. If you don't want to fly it, don't bid it! If that is all your seniority holds, then tough sh$t...resign if you don't want to fly it.

You are not the only person whose career was set back by disasters, war, etc. As you accuse the majors of forgetting their roots, one can pretty much surmise that regional pilots get to the point where they think somebody owes them something. I remember meeting a friend who was a newly minted cfi while I was commuting someday. of course, he was giddy to be sitting next to a 20-something Delta captain and was full of questions. How could he best gain experience, what was the best direction to take, etc. I told him to be wary of the pitfalls of the profession, and specifically not to forget the feeling of wanting to move on to a major. Sure enough, 2 years later he was a freshly minted captain at a fast growing regional. A year after that, he is pissed off at his major partner because they are not letting his regional have larger jets. I reminded him of our conversation, and he had some excuse for needing the money, blah, blah, blah. He had the audacity to try and lecure me about scope, and how majors needed to relinquish it, blah, blah, blah.

Bottom line, scope is where it is because of money. The majority of major pilots were not too good to fly rjs. Rjs were not even in their eyes when they snuck under the radar as 50 seat aircraft. All aircraft under 70 seats or less were allowed when Comair started flying the rjs. Jet or turboprop didn't matter. Once the contract came around again, Delta was knocking on BKs door, pilots were on furlough, and the majority were convinced to trade jobs for money. The trend then took off. By the time C2k came around, RJs were huge and in great numbers. ALPA had marching orders to stop the bleeding, but had other problems as well with regard to a C scale operation in MCO with 737-200s, not to mention a group who alienated themselves at the worst possible time within Deltas two wholly owneds. Thence, more money, a LOT more, was thrown the Delta pilots' way. Which lands us to pretty much where we are today.

While you insist that it is ego, you are wrong. If so, then the Comair pilots have the same ego, for their contract allows outsourcing of small aircraft as well, or did. Fact is that money talks, ego stops at the door.

While you believe that all flying should be done by one group of pilots, it is not your judgement to make. Accusing guys of forgetting their roots is two fold. just as many forget where they were headed as forget where they've been. Likewise, you have another dynamic in the way of the military pilot who has a whole different perspective. Turboprop drivers in the service are generally the ones who finished lower in class. Less skilled, if you will. Military pilots ARE a force to be reckoned with at this level, and money talks to them more than smaller aircraft as entry level aircraft at Delta. They are a large voting block at Delta, and most are beginning to see the light. Try putting yourself into 150K and up salary range and worrying about a 50K aircraft on the list. Simply put,until you've been there, you can't--so don't even bother trying

Scope battle is indeed coming to the forefront at Delta, especially as more and more civilians get hired. It will NOT come about to the satisfaction of Comair and ASA drivers. It will be slowly incorporated into the mix via flow through AND flow back, much to the chagrin of the RJDC crowd. Civilian pilots don't forget their roots, neither do military pilots. Suggesting that they have, as you have, is a slap in the face. Likewise, being insensitive to military pilots' beliefs--as most regional pilots are--is a recipe for continued frustration, and failure with respect to achieving cooperation.

That's the way it is. You don't have to like it, but it is what it is.

 

[MJ42]

You are not the only person whose career was set back by disasters, war, etc. As you accuse the majors of forgetting their roots, one can pretty much surmise that regional pilots get to the point where they think somebody owes them something. I remember meeting a friend who was a newly minted cfi while I was commuting someday. of course, he was giddy to be sitting next to a 20-something Delta captain and was full of questions. How could he best gain experience, what was the best direction to take, etc. I told him to be wary of the pitfalls of the profession, and specifically not to forget the feeling of wanting to move on to a major. Sure enough, 2 years later he was a freshly minted captain at a fast growing regional. A year after that, he is pissed off at his major partner because they are not letting his regional have larger jets. I reminded him of our conversation, and he had some excuse for needing the money, blah, blah, blah. He had the audacity to try and lecure me about scope, and how majors needed to relinquish it, blah, blah, blah.

Bottom line, scope is where it is because of money. The majority of major pilots were not too good to fly rjs. Rjs were not even in their eyes when they snuck under the radar as 50 seat aircraft. All aircraft under 70 seats or less were allowed when Comair started flying the rjs. Jet or turboprop didn't matter. Once the contract came around again, Delta was knocking on BKs door, pilots were on furlough, and the majority were convinced to trade jobs for money. The trend then took off. By the time C2k came around, RJs were huge and in great numbers. ALPA had marching orders to stop the bleeding, but had other problems as well with regard to a C scale operation in MCO with 737-200s, not to mention a group who alienated themselves at the worst possible time within Deltas two wholly owneds. Thence, more money, a LOT more, was thrown the Delta pilots' way. Which lands us to pretty much where we are today.

While you insist that it is ego, you are wrong. If so, then the Comair pilots have the same ego, for their contract allows outsourcing of small aircraft as well, or did. Fact is that money talks, ego stops at the door.

While you believe that all flying should be done by one group of pilots, it is not your judgement to make. Accusing guys of forgetting their roots is two fold. just as many forget where they were headed as forget where they've been. Likewise, you have another dynamic in the way of the military pilot who has a whole different perspective. Turboprop drivers in the service are generally the ones who finished lower in class. Less skilled, if you will(Except for those ANG C-130 guys who wanted to be in a unit close to home!!!):beer: . Military pilots ARE a force to be reckoned with at this level, and money talks to them more than smaller aircraft as entry level aircraft at Delta. They are a large voting block at Delta, and most are beginning to see the light. Try putting yourself into 150K and up salary range and worrying about a 50K aircraft on the list. Simply put,until you've been there, you can't--so don't even bother trying

Scope battle is indeed coming to the forefront at Delta, especially as more and more civilians get hired. It will NOT come about to the satisfaction of Comair and ASA drivers. It will be slowly incorporated into the mix via flow through AND flow back, much to the chagrin of the RJDC crowd. Civilian pilots don't forget their roots, neither do military pilots. Suggesting that they have, as you have, is a slap in the face. Likewise, being insensitive to military pilots' beliefs--as most regional pilots are--is a recipe for continued frustration, and failure with respect to achieving cooperation.

That's the way it is. You don't have to like it, but it is what it is.

Very well said(except for my correction in red).

 

[PuffDriver]

Very well said(except for my correction in red).

Correct. Hence the word generally.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

What does military have to do with this? I was dealing with one person that I know from our last job at ASA. Nothing personal to you, just him.

I do have a right to have an opinion just as you have the same right. My opinion comes from the roots of the airline pilot profession. As the saying goes, if a kite flies, will it be a Pan Am pilot at the end of it.

What is it you are saying about flying a T-prop? Is there something wrong with that? Last time I checked, Delta Airlines is not the USAF no matter how many guys that fly there are from the AF.

Are you saying that I shouldn't have an opinion because I am not entitled to one based on my past experience at regional carriers?

*confused*

 

[PuffDriver]

What does military have to do with this? I was dealing with one person that I know from our last job at ASA. Nothing personal to you, just him.

Then PM him. You post was public, and an insult to all of us who remember our roots quite well.

I do have a right to have an opinion just as you have the same right. My opinion comes from the roots of the airline pilot profession. As the saying goes, if a kite flies, will it be a Pan Am pilot at the end of it.

As do I, and I think that your opinion is wrong, and insulting on top of it. Besides, I am just looking out for my regional brethren, who are now my Delta homies. You should be proud.

What is it you are saying about flying a T-prop? Is there something wrong with that? Last time I checked, Delta Airlines is not the USAF no matter how many guys that fly there are from the AF.

You are getting all up in arms about outsourcing, remembering roots, too good to fly small aircraft. I explained, I thought very clearly, the history of how all of this evolved-from my perspective of actually being here as it was evolving. As an insight, Delta is more of a Navy airline, although we do occasionally let a guard baby or zoomie slip through.

Are you saying that I shouldn't have an opinion because I am not entitled to one based on my past experience at regional carriers?

No, I am saying that your opinion is wrong. My utopia is the same as yours, all brand flying done by the brand pilots. Show me one airline that is global who does it. ACL, fins and I agree--we just differ on how to go about it.

Again, it's not about being too good to fly a turboprop. It's not about ego. It's about money, and no pilot out there is immune.

 

[General Lee]

I expect the DAL SLI proposal will have the DC-9 pilots stapled to the top of the list now. Their proposal logic is based on "what you bring to the merger" and the -9s are now the most profitable aircraft for Delta.

If they are truly staying, then great. They are still the lowest paying equipment, and the word is still out on whether or not the 742s will stay. Ed Bastain may have stated one thing at the NWA line check meeting, and another on the flight home. We can only hope they all stay and we grow both the DC9 flying and keep the 742 cargo ops. You never know...


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Hazen]

You are right. Money does talk to the military guys. We take a big enough pay cut for quite a few years leaving the military. Flying a small regional type jet or Beach 1900 as previously mentioned for even less money is not attractive to us at all.