Joe the Plummer says, "Bring back the -9's"

[clippyrip]

A 70 seat jet is not a 70 seat turboprop. I personally would like to see both at mainline, but they are not the same.

I AGREE. If they brought Q400s to mainline, that is all I would ever fly and bid. What a great airplane. Honestly.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Wait a second...

I wasn't trying to start a pissing contest about regional versus mainline. That has been done ad naseum. I was troubled that CL65 seemed to be taking a stance of irritation with the same group of pilots that he came from. That was all. So long as he doesn't forget how he got where he is, I have no issues.

Back on point...

Some of the NWA DC-9 (-10's I think) were the same size as the "regional" jets that operate today at regional carriers. Same equipment, same routes...different pilots.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Like I said my drunk Irish buddy, it has nothing to do with the pilots. You and I worked at that level and have moved on. There is nothing wrong with the pilots.

Point is that, we both watched 1000's of mainline jobs go bye bye after 9-11 to the regionals. Pilots had nothing to do with it. It had to do with scope and management knowing when to strike.
Putting flying back on mainline is a huge priority. I am glad to see it shift the other way.

As you say the classic 9's were the size of present day RJ's. Does that not bother you a little bit? The new CRJ 1000 is the length of an 88. Those 170's and 175's are great jets. Why should we let those jobs out the back door of mainline flying? We should not. We allow enough of those, and the next thing you will see is no small gage flying for mainline.

 

[jetflier]

NWA post CH11 contract has pay scales in the contract that now have become part of the new Delta contract.

The problem is the rate of pay. If a large RJ replaces the DC-9 the affected pilots are given a 40% pay cut for the same job. Not good.

NWA ALPA let the fox in the hen-house when the company insisted that the large rj was not a DC-9 replacement. For doing so they would have to have had established the replacement pay rate, which was the current DC-9 payrate.

Either NWA ALPA negotiators were blind sighted or stupid.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I think that the whole problem resulted from ego.

 

[~~~^~~~]

NWA ALPA let the fox in the hen-house when the company insisted that the large rj was not a DC-9 replacement. For doing so they would have to have had established the replacement pay rate, which was the current DC-9 payrate.

Either NWA ALPA negotiators were blind sighted or stupid.

I follow your logic, but Steenland was always pretty outspoken about the RJ's replacing DC9's. ALPA was not stupid, they thought they knew what they were doing and they were selling the junior guys down the river to try to protect legacy pay for senior pilots on big equipment. They sold our flying.

NWA ALPA's testimony in the SLI hearing was the DC9's replacement would pay RJ rates and your MEC is not alone in getting RJ rates on your contract for this sized airplane. The Delta contract has CRJ900 rates that are average for the equipment. Our joint contract carries these forward.

Our union never intended to fight to keep DC9's / 737-200's on the property. At the most senior levels, they WANT these airplanes outsourced in the belief that it will preserve their legacy pay rates on big equipment. During bankruptcy negotiations at Delta, there was a six hundred million dollar credit given for negotiating scope and pay rates on airplanes Delta mainline did not even fly.

The negotiation of RJ rates at Delta were (again my opinion) negotiated to cap the salary demands at ASA and Comair, who were in negotiations at the time.

This failed, divided, logic has resulted in all of our pay rates coming down as our flying has been outsourced to the lowest bidders who we must now compete with.

We have good people in office now. Although ALPA is responsible for this mess, they are our best hope for fixing it. With both our pilot groups together, I am hopeful we can turn the direction of the tide on outsourcing our flying.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Fair enough fin. Take away a negotiation base for future contracts, or ego, the result is the same. We now have to not only worry about management giving us lower pay rates, but farming out our flying.

 

[~~~^~~~]

ACL, I edited my post.

One of the largest questions has always been, "why did you guys outsource RJ flying?" The answer really surprised me. To some it is logical to outsource any airplane smaller than the one you currently fly - IF - you can exchange that flying for better pay rates on your larger equipment.

IE the 777 guys think it is OK to outsource the 757 to preserve the standards of legacy pay and international flying. The 757 guys think the MD88 can be outsourced. The MD88 guys think - WHOA!

It's B scale, but really it is a whole lot worse. How much was 76 seat scope worth? Some can tell you $600,000,000.00, was it about the ego, or the money?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Well quite true, money decides all. If you talk to people that were around during that time, it was money, but also the fact that mainline pilots did not fly airplanes that small.
Kind of funny when you see what a small airplane does these days....

 

[~~~^~~~]

Well quite true, money decides all. If you talk to people that were around during that time, it was money, but also the fact that mainline pilots did not fly airplanes that small.

Sadly, mainline pilots DID fly airplanes that small. You know the history of the DC9 and 737.

Some flew with us at ASA, Comair and other airlines while they were on furlough. They were excellent pilots with good attitudes, despite the lousy circumstances that had them our right seats making nothing for their work.

In my book, the attitudes and perseverance of those pilots makes them awfully good guys. I know you feel the same.