JetBlue question.

[mejorgy]

Sounds like a good idea to me. I think there should be a separate elected merger committee that woud be in charge of using these funds if/when the moment came up.

Alright Guys......Let`s think about this!

1193 of our blue brothers and sisters dismissed a notion of committing 2% of their pay for the benefits of aero medical, legal and yes merger representation by way of a big fat NO VOTE to ALPA. BTW, my comment is not a plug for alpa or for any other representing body............. But c`mon! Do you think the mass of our cheap skate blue comrades would pony up a single nickel to fund a M&A war chest? JEEZ.........most captains won`t dig deep into their cash lined pockets to buy the first beer. Also: just like BPF (which I am blessed to contribute to) Do we set up a charter and by-laws to distribute the money in the "more than likley" event our contrarian company is purchased by the big bad AMR Corp.

All I am saying is this: Our company and specifically our ELT has pushed the Direct Relationship down our naive throats. If any Jet Blue Pilot believes in his/her heart that Dave and company are going to look out for our professional and personal intrests in the event of a transactional event.... I`ll see you all down in the unemployment line.

 

[BeachBummer]

Anybody think the JBPA will start up again?

Get on it.

 

[kellwolf]

If we were part of a union we would be taking care of these cost ourselves as well. ALPA merger policy does not allow national funds or regular dues to be used during a merger(that may only be an ALPA/ALPA merger).


We would all have to pay into a seperate merger fund. I realize we would be able to use these funds collectivley though.

I wonder if it would be possible to set up our own fund similar to the BPF, with the sole purpose of collective merger representation, wether through the PVC or separately.

The reality is that we would have to pay for it either way.



Anybody think the JBPA will start up again?

Not necessarily. No Pinnacle, Mesaba or Colgan pilots had to chip in or set up another fund during the merger for those companies. Not sure what was up with Comair essentially handing out the collection plate for a merger that may or may not ever come.

 

[xjt40]

Most of our pilots make more money than many Legacy carrier pilots. With Captains makeing over 200k a year and a lot of FO's makeing over 100k a year. True, most legacy FO's make 100k+, but they are also doing that at 50 years old with 15+ years at the company. Our guys are doing it with 3+ years at JB. Many guys also have a better QOL. Not exactly leading the race to the bottom. Unemployment line? Really? How many JB pilots have ever been furloghed? I can't remember. Oh ya. "0".

Yes, Things need to be improved upon. Yes, in a court of law our 5 docs. will be torn apart, and probably not worth the paper they are printed on. A CBA might have been better for the group, but a CBA would also get torn apart in a court of law. That has been proven over and over again, and 1100+ of our pilots here have witnessed that first hand. Every JB pilot is just hoping the cards all fall in our direction, myself included of course.

I understand your anger and dissapointment, but this bolded section of your quote is complete incorrect and false.

Ok so the Jetblue guys that sit on their computers 24 hours a day waiting for their FLICA ALERTs so they can run back to the airport and fill every little whole in their schedule with some more soft time, they make a decent w2. Its all good until they get sick,injured,or need retirement. All their sick and vacation time or PTO is converted into that big W2. Most fly sick and rarely go on vacation. But wow they sure make big money dont they?? Then add in that huge profit sharing check, mine was $23 on $115,000.

 

[RiddleEagle18]

Ok so the Jetblue guys that sit on their computers 24 hours a day waiting for their FLICA ALERTs so they can run back to the airport and fill every little whole in their schedule with some more soft time, they make a decent w2. Its all good until they get sick,injured,or need retirement. All their sick and vacation time or PTO is converted into that big W2. Most fly sick and rarely go on vacation. But wow they sure make big money dont they?? Then add in that huge profit sharing check, mine was $23 on $115,000.

Your keeping him honest so Ill do the same for you. Plus a little look at others.

It was $23 above the $5750(5%)($11500 assuming you put in your 5%) they deposited into your 401k.

JetBlue 5% 401k Match/ 5% Guaranteed Profit Share/ Additional anything above 5% profit share.

Delta gets 11%(Currently going up next year to 14% I believe)B fund and 2% 401k and profit sharing. (ALPA)

American Gets 1.25%A Fund/ 11% B Fund (APA)

Alaska 13.5% Direct 401k Contribution (ALPA)

Cont- 12.75% B Fund plus profit sharing (ALPA)

Hawaiian Kicking everyone's ass up to 19.4% 401k Match/ 2.4% A fund. (ALPA)

United 9% B fund/ Profit sharing/ "C Fund"? 7% (ALPA)

Airways 10% B Fund/ Profit Sharing (ALPA negotiated currently USAPA)

Air Tran 1% 401k Match/ 10.5% B Fund (ALPA)

Allegiant 3% 401k Match(Ouch)

Frontier 5% for every 10% pilot contribution/ 0-6% b Fund base on longevity (FAPA negotiated)

Spirit 8% 401k match/ profit sharing (ALPA)

Virgin up to 5% 401k Match

Southwest up to 9.3% 401k match/ profit sharing(averaged 10% over 10 years) (SWAPA)

 

[flydoc]

Your keeping him honest so Ill do the same for you. Plus a little look at others.

It was $23 above the $5750(5%)($11500 assuming you put in your 5%) they deposited into your 401k.

JetBlue 5% 401k Match/ 5% Guaranteed Profit Share/ Additional anything above 5% profit share.

Delta gets 11%(Currently going up next year to 14% I believe)B fund and 2% 401k and profit sharing. (ALPA)

American Gets 1.25%A Fund/ 11% B Fund (APA)

Alaska 13.5% Direct 401k Contribution (ALPA)

Cont- 12.75% B Fund plus profit sharing (ALPA)

Hawaiian Kicking everyone's ass up to 19.4% 401k Match/ 2.4% A fund. (ALPA)

United 9% B fund/ Profit sharing/ "C Fund"? 7% (ALPA)

Airways 10% B Fund/ Profit Sharing (ALPA negotiated currently USAPA)

Air Tran 1% 401k Match/ 10.5% B Fund (ALPA)

Allegiant 3% 401k Match(Ouch)

Frontier 5% for every 10% pilot contribution/ 0-6% b Fund base on longevity (FAPA negotiated)

Spirit 8% 401k match/ profit sharing (ALPA)

Virgin up to 5% 401k Match

Southwest up to 9.3% 401k match/ profit sharing(averaged 10% over 10 years) (SWAPA)

Nice try, RiddleEagle.

"Riddle" me this Batman:

Why do you insist on combining 401k match and profit sharing?

Maybe because management showed you that neat trick in some BS bluefact website?

You can call it 5% match. and 5% profit sharing.
-or-
You can call it a 10% contribution (with inclusive 5%match).

But YOU CANT CALL IT 10% contribution and profit sharing. It's one or the other. And if you call it a 10% match, then you have to say the company gets a 5% discount on any ACTUAL profit sharing.

FACT: Average retirement plan inputs (A fund/B fund) for major airlines is 13%. That puts Blue 8% points behind w/profit sharing, or 3% behind w/o profit sharing. You pick.

And before you say "Aw, shucks, it's just 3%," Not so fast, cowboy. That 3% is in comparison to 13%, not 100%. So when talking pure dollar percentage, Blue is actually 24% behind the -AVERAGE- contributions. And I am giving you the benefit of the doubt and counting our "guaranteed profit sharing" as part of the retirement plan. Which remember, is actually a 5% discount to JetBlue during the good years. Years that other companies would be paying ACTUAL profit sharing.

Now if you want to talk turkey, we are talking a difference of about $1,000,000.00 at retirement time. YMMV.

JetBlue pilots haven't even been asking for a leading contract. But JetBlue can't even see their way to average.

Sad.

 

[B6Busdriver]

Your keeping him honest so Ill do the same for you. Plus a little look at others.

It was $23 above the $5750(5%)($11500 assuming you put in your 5%) they deposited into your 401k.

JetBlue 5% 401k Match/ 5% Guaranteed Profit Share/ Additional anything above 5% profit share.

Delta gets 11%(Currently going up next year to 14% I believe)B fund and 2% 401k and profit sharing. (ALPA)

American Gets 1.25%A Fund/ 11% B Fund (APA)

Alaska 13.5% Direct 401k Contribution (ALPA)

Cont- 12.75% B Fund plus profit sharing (ALPA)

Hawaiian Kicking everyone's ass up to 19.4% 401k Match/ 2.4% A fund. (ALPA)

United 9% B fund/ Profit sharing/ "C Fund"? 7% (ALPA)

Airways 10% B Fund/ Profit Sharing (ALPA negotiated currently USAPA)

Air Tran 1% 401k Match/ 10.5% B Fund (ALPA)

Allegiant 3% 401k Match(Ouch)

Frontier 5% for every 10% pilot contribution/ 0-6% b Fund base on longevity (FAPA negotiated)

Spirit 8% 401k match/ profit sharing (ALPA)

Virgin up to 5% 401k Match

Southwest up to 9.3% 401k match/ profit sharing(averaged 10% over 10 years) (SWAPA)

Hey Sport,

Have you heard of the PCRB report? In 2008 a company sponsored document created by the pilots showed the average retirement at 13%. Yours is 10%. That 13% number has only gone higher while bluejet's pilots remain static. Take a look our skyrocketing health care premiums. With a CBA you can mandate what % you the pilot pays as well control yearly increases. You get to wear a blue shirt and a goatee. Woopeeee!

 

[RiddleEagle18]

Hey Sport,

Have you heard of the PCRB report? In 2008 a company sponsored document created by the pilots showed the average retirement at 13%. Yours is 10%. That 13% number has only gone higher while bluejet's pilots remain static. Take a look our skyrocketing health care premiums. With a CBA you can mandate what % you the pilot pays as well control yearly increases. You get to wear a blue shirt and a goatee. Woopeeee!

Calm down chief.

Sport really?

Where did I say I wasnt in favor of a CBA? I was just throwing out a comparison for everyone. I hate hearing about the $50 they got in profit sharing though. Its disingenuous, and not the whole truth. Its a bending of truths to fit their agenda.

What I did was give facts about everyones retirement packages. If anything you should have used those to support your case for a union. We are behind on retirement. It would have made you sound reasonable and worth listening to. Instead you attack me because Im new and you sound like the bitter union supporter all the no voters love to point to.

 

[Otto77]

Gotta love how DR has our own pilots in-fighting. Management is loving it I'm sure

 

[RiddleEagle18]

Nice try, RiddleEagle.

"Riddle" me this Batman:

Why do you insist on combining 401k match and profit sharing?

Maybe because management showed you that neat trick in some BS bluefact website?

You can call it 5% match. and 5% profit sharing.
-or-
You can call it a 10% contribution (with inclusive 5%match).

But YOU CANT CALL IT 10% contribution and profit sharing. It's one or the other. And if you call it a 10% match, then you have to say the company gets a 5% discount on any ACTUAL profit sharing.

You are right. I think it was lost in how I typed it.

I didnt call it 10% and profit sharing.

I called it "$23 above the $5750(5%)($11500 assuming you put in your 5%) they deposited into your 401k."

5750 = 5% 401k match
5750(deposited into 401k) +23 = 5773 profit share.

He made it sound as if his entire profit share was $23 when in fact it was $5773.

I broke it down into 3 to show where the $23 came from.

"JetBlue 5% 401k Match/ 5% Guaranteed Profit Share/ Additional anything above 5% profit share.(or as you called it a 5% discount or $23) "




You will notice in my comparison I noted the union carriers.

They all outpace us except for Frontier(near bankruptcy) and Airways(very old bankruptcy contract)/Airtran depending on their companies profit.

 

[flydoc]

Thank you for noting the difference. Just please remember that the 5% "guaranteed" profit sharing is a shell game. Also keep in mind that the company has to pay other employee groups EXTRA every year (basically overfund their retirement) so the pilot's don't default due to ERISA laws. Yes that is right. We are funding other "crewmembers" retirements that don't even care about a retirement.

How is that a good solution?

JetBlue tries to tell us how "we are all equal." That's BS. We aren't . Different people (and employee groups) have different wants and needs. But, hey, I can sleep better at night knowing that I am helping some 20 year old ramper get ahead on his retirement THAT HE ISN'T EVEN FUNDING. Awesome.

 

[Lake Alice]

Your keeping him honest so Ill do the same for you. Plus a little look at others.

It was $23 above the $5750(5%)($11500 assuming you put in your 5%) they deposited into your 401k.

JetBlue 5% 401k Match/ 5% Guaranteed Profit Share/ Additional anything above 5% profit share.

Delta gets 11%(Currently going up next year to 14% I believe)B fund and 2% 401k and profit sharing. (ALPA)

American Gets 1.25%A Fund/ 11% B Fund (APA)

Alaska 13.5% Direct 401k Contribution (ALPA)

Cont- 12.75% B Fund plus profit sharing (ALPA)

Hawaiian Kicking everyone's ass up to 19.4% 401k Match/ 2.4% A fund. (ALPA)

United 9% B fund/ Profit sharing/ "C Fund"? 7% (ALPA)

Airways 10% B Fund/ Profit Sharing (ALPA negotiated currently USAPA)

Air Tran 1% 401k Match/ 10.5% B Fund (ALPA)

Allegiant 3% 401k Match(Ouch)

Frontier 5% for every 10% pilot contribution/ 0-6% b Fund base on longevity (FAPA negotiated)

Spirit 8% 401k match/ profit sharing (ALPA)

Virgin up to 5% 401k Match

Southwest up to 9.3% 401k match/ profit sharing(averaged 10% over 10 years) (SWAPA)

We only receive a 5% 401K contribution and 5% profit sharing. This point needs to hammered home as your talking points above lean towards our retirement being somehow equal to that of real retirements. Look up compound interest and show me how we are equal. so to be perfectly clear we are between 8% and 13% behind on retirement. Keep in mind we also don't have a b-fund.
In the future double check Jetblue's talking points before posting them. They have of the mark for a number of years.

 

[$$$4nothin]

Ok so the Jetblue guys that sit on their computers 24 hours a day waiting for their FLICA ALERTs so they can run back to the airport and fill every little whole in their schedule with some more soft time, they make a decent w2. Its all good until they get sick,injured,or need retirement. All their sick and vacation time or PTO is converted into that big W2. Most fly sick and rarely go on vacation. But wow they sure make big money dont they?? Then add in that huge profit sharing check, mine was $23 on $115,000.

So if you want to work your A$$ off you can make a bunch of money, and if you don't want to work hard you make less but get a bunch of time at home. Man that sounds like a horrible deal.

 

[Lake Alice]

So if you want to work your A$$ off you can make a bunch of money, and if you don't want to work hard you make less but get a bunch of time at home. Man that sounds like a horrible deal.

This is only part of the issue. Historically if you look at bid awards over the past 5, 6 and 7 years the monthly awards have decreased. Jetblue is trying to lower the bid awards to 80 hours or less providing for 3 hours or less of premium time. This was not the assumption the majority of us signed on for. As you mentioned above we came onboard with the mentality of work hard and go home. This is less and less the case now. Add to this the lack of standard retirement and benefits is this is the issue. What Jetblue has told you is substantially different to what reality is. A look at the latest Delta MEC sponsored pay and benefits review shows Jetblue with a much more substandard package in the area of insurance, retirement and sick/vacation.

 

[RiddleEagle18]

Back to the original question in this thread A/C numbers. Here is the most recent update as of today.

Sold 12 E190 deliveries(previously announced)
Cnx 12 (announced today)
Moved 7 others to 2018. With option to cnx those before July 2012 with Cnx Payment.

That should pretty much take care of the E190 fleet at the previously announced number of 75ish.

My guess is the number never makes it to 75 as they will most likely use the later deliveries to replace some of the original ones.

Current Delivery Schedule

2012 - 11 Total 7 A320 4 E190
2013 - 9 Total 3 A320 4 A321 2 E190
2014 - 11 Total 9 A321 2 E190
2015 - 17 Total 10 A321 7 E190
2016 - 18 Total 3 A320 7 A321 8 E190
2017 - 13 Total 8 A320 5 E190
2018 - 17 Total 10 A320NEO 7* E190


* Subject to CNX

 

[B6Busdriver]

Calm down chief.

Sport really?

Where did I say I wasnt in favor of a CBA? I was just throwing out a comparison for everyone. I hate hearing about the $50 they got in profit sharing though. Its disingenuous, and not the whole truth. Its a bending of truths to fit their agenda.

What I did was give facts about everyones retirement packages. If anything you should have used those to support your case for a union. We are behind on retirement. It would have made you sound reasonable and worth listening to. Instead you attack me because Im new and you sound like the bitter union supporter all the no voters love to point to.

You say you want a CBA. Let me guess....you don't want ALPA? Right? That's what I thought. Keep having your in-house fantasy but it ain't gonna work. This place is no Southwest. How do we pay for said in-house union? Are you willing to pay big assessments for your cozy and cute little in-house? Are you willing to pay higher dues? Are you willing to pay more to get less? I've been ALPA twice before, I've seen good and bad. ALPA has the resources, your inhouse will not.

 

[B6Driver]

What ALPA offers and does not always deliver is the fantasy.
We ran that vote already and you may have missed it but ALPA lost.
Trading one problem for two was not the solution we were looking for.
This is an opinion board, just read the stuff and smile if you like.

 

[B6Busdriver]

What ALPA offers and does not always deliver is the fantasy.
We ran that vote already and you may have missed it but ALPA lost.
Trading one problem for two was not the solution we were looking for.
This is an opinion board, just read the stuff and smile if you like.

What is your solution then? Do nothing and wait for your recall to AA?

 

[OurMoney1]

What suprises me most about the JBLU pilot group is the M&A denial. I get the "vote against ALPA" and the anger some have surrounding the organization but reality is; your margins are shrinking, your CFO just quit, gas is going up, your return on capital is being critized by Wall Street, published maintenance costs are increasing, your CEO has publicly said he is aggresively going to spend to secure LGA and DCA slots at auction "dipping into the $1.24 billion purse of cash reserves", the sky over JFK is not as blue as it once was....how long do you guys think your BOD is going to continue down the path of going it alone? When I look at the industry as a whole right now your operation strikes me as the most vulnerable. How you could say no to the benefits of a CBA during a time that you may need it most is crazy. Do you really think you will be a stand alone operation in 2 to 3 years? This operation is significant to all of us because it is a break from the modern labor model. I have a lot of Blue pilots in my jumpseat monthly, all great people, but I wonder what fate has in store for this experiment.

 

[n757st]

Made a 9% operating margin last quarter and are paying off debt. It's interest expense killing us right now, but that will improve as free cash-flow is being used to buy our new planes. Not saying everything is peachy here, but its not exactly dire like you are suggesting. Still, we need a union to protect us.