JetBlue question.

[Flyby1206]

Aren't they getting 737-800's?

Yea I think so. Probably wouldn't make too much sense to have a 737 fleet and a Bus fleet, but we can dream!

 

[Lake Alice]

Supposedly there will be a "Corporate Transactions" permanent working committee. I'd like to see an account established and the money in it now rather than after the turmoil starts.



I don't see anything about using your own resources first in the docs. Maybe I have an old version. In any case, the docs need to be firmed up before I vote for them.

15 F
the Airline shall establish a fund for the sole benefit of the entire Airline pilot work group in an aggregate amount of not less than $2,000,000... , however that such fund shall be used for the sole purpose of supplementing any expenses Pilot may incur for legal representation during the seniority integration process.


Much like 3A any other airline acquiring Jetblue will force us to negotiate individually. Unlike 3A, a seniority integration does not yield a large dividend therefore pro-bono legal representation is highly unlikely.

Add to this trying to prove 15 A.(i) "manages or directs" under Control. Oh, and don't forget 15 C.(ii) "the total aggregate annual ASMs of such domestic carriers does not exceed 10% of the Airline’s annual ASMs at any time" which allows an alter ego airline with any aircraft.

I do not mean to insult you so forgive me but this is the problem with our pilot group. Most cannot read, don't care to read, trust management or PVC or whatever excuse you may think of. These documents are very bad for us. The potential benefits are greatly outweighed by the simple fact we cannot enforce any of it.

 

[mejorgy]

15 F
the Airline shall establish a fund for the sole benefit of the entire Airline pilot work group in an aggregate amount of not less than $2,000,000... , however that such fund shall be used for the sole purpose of supplementing any expenses Pilot may incur for legal representation during the seniority integration process.


Much like 3A any other airline acquiring Jetblue will force us to negotiate individually. Unlike 3A, a seniority integration does not yield a large dividend therefore pro-bono legal representation is highly unlikely.

Add to this trying to prove 15 A.(i) "manages or directs" under Control. Oh, and don't forget 15 C.(ii) "the total aggregate annual ASMs of such domestic carriers does not exceed 10% of the Airline’s annual ASMs at any time" which allows an alter ego airline with any aircraft.

I do not mean to insult you so forgive me but this is the problem with our pilot group. Most cannot read, don't care to read, trust management or PVC or whatever excuse you may think of. These documents are very bad for us. The potential benefits are greatly outweighed by the simple fact we cannot enforce any of it.

Lake...........Thank you for your post.... I am utterly dumb-founded to the fact any of my colleagues are willing to accept the language contained in 15F or the other doc's for that matter!

For god sakes guys (who are willing to accept this) Wake up and quit being so naive.

 

[BeachBummer]

Lake...........Thank you for your post.... I am utterly dumb-founded to the fact any of my colleagues are willing to accept the language contained in 15F or the other doc's for that matter!

For god sakes guys (who are willing to accept this) Wake up and quit being so naive.

or any of sec. 15 for that matter.

 

[Lake Alice]

Unfortunately the blue bayous and crains of the world continue to push a personal agenda and the rest of will be left with no job.

 

[Smarta$$]

That is pretty scary language. Where are the NO voters and koolaid drinkers to explain how this actually protects JB pilots? I think they hate unions more than they like their jobs/seniority.

 

[MikeSF340]

I'm not saying they are right or wrong, but since probably 75% of the pilots came from other unionized airlines it says something about how unions are perceived.

 

[Smarta$$]

I think it has more to do with the political winds (with some politicians and news outlets glorifying management and demonizing labor) and blaming the wrong entities for pilots degradation in earning potential.

 

[Lake Alice]

That is pretty scary language. Where are the NO voters and koolaid drinkers to explain how this actually protects JB pilots? I think they hate unions more than they like their jobs/seniority.

Whats interesting about this whole predicament is Jetblue is open about it's verbiage, desire to not protect the pilot group and the pilots group lack of interest. The majority of pilots at Jetblue will vote yes because Jetblue says the documents are industry leading and offer the protections we desire. After reading the documents nothing could be further from the truth. It's pathetic really.
I thought I was embarrassed to be associated with this pilot group after the ALPA vote but this is a whole new level.

Jetblue has told you are protected and then provided you with documents stating to the contrary.

These documents aren't even hard to read. A fifth grader could understand them.

Jetblue Airways pilot group...leading the race to the bottom and the unemployment line.

 

[1678]

I'm not saying they are right or wrong, but since probably 75% of the pilots came from other unionized airlines it says something about how unions are perceived.

This is just utterly cr#$.....

90% of the pilots I talk to about a Union, NEVER, yes never, went to a union meting or volunteered for anything to help improve their CBA at the regionals.
They just jump on the band wagon and say "The union never did anything for me."

Please bring me just one pilot who think that e.g. Pinnacle would have been better off without ALPA, and I mean NO UNION, when Mr. Trenary was trying to butcher their contract conditions. The same goes for Mesa, Eagle, Comair, Mesaba, etc. Do you really think that having no Union to represent the voice of the pilot group would have been better than at least having a seat at the table.......

For crying out loud people, WAKE UP........

A choice between ALPA, Teamsters and In-House I can accept.

But a choice between any of the above and NOTHING????????

 

[B6Busdriver]

This is just utterly cr#$.....

90% of the pilots I talk to about a Union, NEVER, yes never, went to a union meting or volunteered for anything to help improve their CBA at the regionals.
They just jump on the band wagon and say "The union never did anything for me."

Please bring me just one pilot who think that e.g. Pinnacle would have been better off without ALPA, and I mean NO UNION, when Mr. Trenary was trying to butcher their contract conditions. The same goes for Mesa, Eagle, Comair, Mesaba, etc. Do you really think that having no Union to represent the voice of the pilot group would have been better than at least having a seat at the table.......

For crying out loud people, WAKE UP........

A choice between ALPA, Teamsters and In-House I can accept.

But a choice between any of the above and NOTHING????????

Post of the day! The no voters have nothing to contribute. You above nothing! No voters, you own this process we live under.

 

[Smarta$$]

This is just utterly cr#$.....

90% of the pilots I talk to about a Union, NEVER, yes never, went to a union meting or volunteered for anything to help improve their CBA at the regionals.
They just jump on the band wagon and say "The union never did anything for me."

Please bring me just one pilot who think that e.g. Pinnacle would have been better off without ALPA, and I mean NO UNION, when Mr. Trenary was trying to butcher their contract conditions. The same goes for Mesa, Eagle, Comair, Mesaba, etc. Do you really think that having no Union to represent the voice of the pilot group would have been better than at least having a seat at the table.......

For crying out loud people, WAKE UP........

A choice between ALPA, Teamsters and In-House I can accept.

But a choice between any of the above and NOTHING????????

Very true words.

 

[$$$4nothin]

Whats interesting about this whole predicament is Jetblue is open about it's verbiage, desire to not protect the pilot group and the pilots group lack of interest. The majority of pilots at Jetblue will vote yes because Jetblue says the documents are industry leading and offer the protections we desire. After reading the documents nothing could be further from the truth. It's pathetic really.
I thought I was embarrassed to be associated with this pilot group after the ALPA vote but this is a whole new level.

Jetblue has told you are protected and then provided you with documents stating to the contrary.

These documents aren't even hard to read. A fifth grader could understand them.

Jetblue Airways pilot group...leading the race to the bottom and the unemployment line.

Most of our pilots make more money than many Legacy carrier pilots. With Captains makeing over 200k a year and a lot of FO's makeing over 100k a year. True, most legacy FO's make 100k+, but they are also doing that at 50 years old with 15+ years at the company. Our guys are doing it with 3+ years at JB. Many guys also have a better QOL. Not exactly leading the race to the bottom. Unemployment line? Really? How many JB pilots have ever been furloghed? I can't remember. Oh ya. "0".

Yes, Things need to be improved upon. Yes, in a court of law our 5 docs. will be torn apart, and probably not worth the paper they are printed on. A CBA might have been better for the group, but a CBA would also get torn apart in a court of law. That has been proven over and over again, and 1100+ of our pilots here have witnessed that first hand. Every JB pilot is just hoping the cards all fall in our direction, myself included of course.

I understand your anger and dissapointment, but this bolded section of your quote is complete incorrect and false.

 

[Fins Up]

Most of our pilots make more money than many Legacy carrier pilots. With Captains makeing over 200k a year and a lot of FO's makeing over 100k a year. True, most legacy FO's make 100k+, but they are also doing that at 50 years old with 15+ years at the company. Our guys are doing it with 3+ years at JB. Many guys also have a better QOL. Not exactly leading the race to the bottom. Unemployment line? Really? How many JB pilots have ever been furloghed? I can't remember. Oh ya. "0".

Yes, Things need to be improved upon. Yes, in a court of law our 5 docs. will be torn apart, and probably not worth the paper they are printed on. A CBA might have been better for the group, but a CBA would also get torn apart in a court of law. That has been proven over and over again, and 1100+ of our pilots here have witnessed that first hand. Every JB pilot is just hoping the cards all fall in our direction, myself included of course.

I understand your anger and dissapointment, but this bolded section of your quote is complete incorrect and false.

Good post. We have things to fix here, like everybody else does. I voted for a CBA, I did not vote in favor of the 5 docs, but the "race to the bottom" thing is a bit excessive in characterization.

 

[BeachBummer]

Most of our pilots make more money than many Legacy carrier pilots. With Captains makeing over 200k a year and a lot of FO's makeing over 100k a year. True, most legacy FO's make 100k+, but they are also doing that at 50 years old with 15+ years at the company. Our guys are doing it with 3+ years at JB. Many guys also have a better QOL. Not exactly leading the race to the bottom. Unemployment line? Really? How many JB pilots have ever been furloghed? I can't remember. Oh ya. "0".

Yes, Things need to be improved upon. Yes, in a court of law our 5 docs. will be torn apart, and probably not worth the paper they are printed on. A CBA might have been better for the group, but a CBA would also get torn apart in a court of law. That has been proven over and over again, and 1100+ of our pilots here have witnessed that first hand. Every JB pilot is just hoping the cards all fall in our direction, myself included of course.

I understand your anger and dissapointment, but this bolded section of your quote is complete incorrect and false.

Man, I don't know how many fo's are making 100k but i'm on my 7th month of 4thyr pay for the year and averaging 84.23hrs/month. I'm only gonna make 85ish. These capt and fo's you speak of are few ie: not the norm. They are also working extra hard for it. I'm not saying it's not possible because I know it is, but I (as most do) need more than 9-11 days home a month to stay married. I'm just not willing to go on the road 20+ days a month to say ooohhhooo I make 6 figures.

You could say that Jb pilots make 350K a year. Sure it's true. 3 of them did last year. This is far from the masses.

 

[$$$4nothin]

I am baseing my numbers on the guys in my crash pad, and friends of mine. Most 3-4 year JFK bus FO's are makeing $100k-$120k per year with 15-17 days off/mo. Yes this does include perdiem, night, international, selling back PTO hours etc. It seems like the norm. from what I hear, but everyones situation is different.

 

[BeachBummer]

Ah, I forgot, I fly for jetblue express. LOL! I gotta get out of the bubble...

Perdiem doesnt count, but all that other stuff does.

 

[145 Lawndart]

I am baseing my numbers on the guys in my crash pad, and friends of mine. Most 3-4 year JFK bus FO's are makeing $100k-$120k per year with 15-17 days off/mo. Yes this does include perdiem, night, international, selling back PTO hours etc. It seems like the norm. from what I hear, but everyones situation is different.

I'm in my 4th year also and there is no way MOST 3-4 year 320fo's are making that much with those days off.

I think some of your crashpad mate are exaggerating the pay and days off numbers.

You are going to be sorely disappointed when you get to 4th year and you are not making that kind of money without having only 12 days off.

I enjoy working here and don't regret the decision to come to jetblue but you are doing a disservice to potential applicants by giving them a false sense of what is achievable pay wise.

 

[flydoc]

I am baseing my numbers on the guys in my crash pad, and friends of mine. Most 3-4 year JFK bus FO's are makeing $100k-$120k per year with 15-17 days off/mo. Yes this does include perdiem, night, international, selling back PTO hours etc. It seems like the norm. from what I hear, but everyones situation is different.

That's about right...

6yr, 320 FO, on track for 130+; commuter, and spend about 15 days/mo at home. The pay is not bad. QOL sucks. I think we can make the most gains on QOL.

Much like 3A any other airline acquiring Jetblue will force us to negotiate individually. Unlike 3A, a seniority integration does not yield a large dividend therefore pro-bono legal representation is highly unlikely.

This needs correcting, no doubt

Add to this trying to prove 15 A.(i) "manages or directs" under Control. Oh, and don't forget 15 C.(ii) "the total aggregate annual ASMs of such domestic carriers does not exceed 10% of the Airline’s annual ASMs at any time" which allows an alter ego airline with any aircraft.

Not true. The wording allows for merger of the lists if either 50 seats or greater, or 10% ASMs. Doesn't have to be both. The real problem with this section lies in the "control" section, not the qualifiers for aircraft size or ASMs.

I do not mean to insult you so forgive me but this is the problem with our pilot group. Most cannot read, don't care to read, trust management or PVC or whatever excuse you may think of. These documents are very bad for us. The potential benefits are greatly outweighed by the simple fact we cannot enforce any of it.

I, like you, have read through these docs. The first ones presented and the latest ones. I, too, voted no. There are problems with them. I do think that the company is on the right track, but the docs aren't there yet. The biggest problem is the lack of faith between the pilot group and the company. I believe the documents can be corrected, but two questions remain: Is the company willing to do that? and are they dealing in good faith?

I am not willing to sign over a half-a$$ed piece of paper in the hopes of fixing it later. To the people that said "it's better than what we have," I say "BS." The company asks us to "trust them." If you "trust them," you don't need a half-a$$ed document to do it. All that document is a piece of paper to make you feel better about doing a job for a company that has already lined out how they are going to screw you by carving out exceptions. I'd rather not have that false conception. I'd rather know the screwing is coming. At least then I have a chance to tense up before they try to slip it in...

 

[Smarta$$]

FlyDoc, honest question. If you are spending 15 days a month at home, and making what you consider to be good money, what specifically makes the QOL poor?

What are the areas that need improvement in your view?