JetBlue question.

[B6Busdriver]

This is just utterly cr#$.....

90% of the pilots I talk to about a Union, NEVER, yes never, went to a union meting or volunteered for anything to help improve their CBA at the regionals.
They just jump on the band wagon and say "The union never did anything for me."

Please bring me just one pilot who think that e.g. Pinnacle would have been better off without ALPA, and I mean NO UNION, when Mr. Trenary was trying to butcher their contract conditions. The same goes for Mesa, Eagle, Comair, Mesaba, etc. Do you really think that having no Union to represent the voice of the pilot group would have been better than at least having a seat at the table.......

For crying out loud people, WAKE UP........

A choice between ALPA, Teamsters and In-House I can accept.

But a choice between any of the above and NOTHING????????

Post of the day! The no voters have nothing to contribute. You above nothing! No voters, you own this process we live under.

 

[Smarta$$]

This is just utterly cr#$.....

90% of the pilots I talk to about a Union, NEVER, yes never, went to a union meting or volunteered for anything to help improve their CBA at the regionals.
They just jump on the band wagon and say "The union never did anything for me."

Please bring me just one pilot who think that e.g. Pinnacle would have been better off without ALPA, and I mean NO UNION, when Mr. Trenary was trying to butcher their contract conditions. The same goes for Mesa, Eagle, Comair, Mesaba, etc. Do you really think that having no Union to represent the voice of the pilot group would have been better than at least having a seat at the table.......

For crying out loud people, WAKE UP........

A choice between ALPA, Teamsters and In-House I can accept.

But a choice between any of the above and NOTHING????????

Very true words.

 

[$$$4nothin]

Whats interesting about this whole predicament is Jetblue is open about it's verbiage, desire to not protect the pilot group and the pilots group lack of interest. The majority of pilots at Jetblue will vote yes because Jetblue says the documents are industry leading and offer the protections we desire. After reading the documents nothing could be further from the truth. It's pathetic really.
I thought I was embarrassed to be associated with this pilot group after the ALPA vote but this is a whole new level.

Jetblue has told you are protected and then provided you with documents stating to the contrary.

These documents aren't even hard to read. A fifth grader could understand them.

Jetblue Airways pilot group...leading the race to the bottom and the unemployment line.

Most of our pilots make more money than many Legacy carrier pilots. With Captains makeing over 200k a year and a lot of FO's makeing over 100k a year. True, most legacy FO's make 100k+, but they are also doing that at 50 years old with 15+ years at the company. Our guys are doing it with 3+ years at JB. Many guys also have a better QOL. Not exactly leading the race to the bottom. Unemployment line? Really? How many JB pilots have ever been furloghed? I can't remember. Oh ya. "0".

Yes, Things need to be improved upon. Yes, in a court of law our 5 docs. will be torn apart, and probably not worth the paper they are printed on. A CBA might have been better for the group, but a CBA would also get torn apart in a court of law. That has been proven over and over again, and 1100+ of our pilots here have witnessed that first hand. Every JB pilot is just hoping the cards all fall in our direction, myself included of course.

I understand your anger and dissapointment, but this bolded section of your quote is complete incorrect and false.

 

[Fins Up]

Most of our pilots make more money than many Legacy carrier pilots. With Captains makeing over 200k a year and a lot of FO's makeing over 100k a year. True, most legacy FO's make 100k+, but they are also doing that at 50 years old with 15+ years at the company. Our guys are doing it with 3+ years at JB. Many guys also have a better QOL. Not exactly leading the race to the bottom. Unemployment line? Really? How many JB pilots have ever been furloghed? I can't remember. Oh ya. "0".

Yes, Things need to be improved upon. Yes, in a court of law our 5 docs. will be torn apart, and probably not worth the paper they are printed on. A CBA might have been better for the group, but a CBA would also get torn apart in a court of law. That has been proven over and over again, and 1100+ of our pilots here have witnessed that first hand. Every JB pilot is just hoping the cards all fall in our direction, myself included of course.

I understand your anger and dissapointment, but this bolded section of your quote is complete incorrect and false.

Good post. We have things to fix here, like everybody else does. I voted for a CBA, I did not vote in favor of the 5 docs, but the "race to the bottom" thing is a bit excessive in characterization.

 

[BeachBummer]

Most of our pilots make more money than many Legacy carrier pilots. With Captains makeing over 200k a year and a lot of FO's makeing over 100k a year. True, most legacy FO's make 100k+, but they are also doing that at 50 years old with 15+ years at the company. Our guys are doing it with 3+ years at JB. Many guys also have a better QOL. Not exactly leading the race to the bottom. Unemployment line? Really? How many JB pilots have ever been furloghed? I can't remember. Oh ya. "0".

Yes, Things need to be improved upon. Yes, in a court of law our 5 docs. will be torn apart, and probably not worth the paper they are printed on. A CBA might have been better for the group, but a CBA would also get torn apart in a court of law. That has been proven over and over again, and 1100+ of our pilots here have witnessed that first hand. Every JB pilot is just hoping the cards all fall in our direction, myself included of course.

I understand your anger and dissapointment, but this bolded section of your quote is complete incorrect and false.

Man, I don't know how many fo's are making 100k but i'm on my 7th month of 4thyr pay for the year and averaging 84.23hrs/month. I'm only gonna make 85ish. These capt and fo's you speak of are few ie: not the norm. They are also working extra hard for it. I'm not saying it's not possible because I know it is, but I (as most do) need more than 9-11 days home a month to stay married. I'm just not willing to go on the road 20+ days a month to say ooohhhooo I make 6 figures.

You could say that Jb pilots make 350K a year. Sure it's true. 3 of them did last year. This is far from the masses.

 

[$$$4nothin]

I am baseing my numbers on the guys in my crash pad, and friends of mine. Most 3-4 year JFK bus FO's are makeing $100k-$120k per year with 15-17 days off/mo. Yes this does include perdiem, night, international, selling back PTO hours etc. It seems like the norm. from what I hear, but everyones situation is different.

 

[BeachBummer]

Ah, I forgot, I fly for jetblue express. LOL! I gotta get out of the bubble...

Perdiem doesnt count, but all that other stuff does.

 

[145 Lawndart]

I am baseing my numbers on the guys in my crash pad, and friends of mine. Most 3-4 year JFK bus FO's are makeing $100k-$120k per year with 15-17 days off/mo. Yes this does include perdiem, night, international, selling back PTO hours etc. It seems like the norm. from what I hear, but everyones situation is different.

I'm in my 4th year also and there is no way MOST 3-4 year 320fo's are making that much with those days off.

I think some of your crashpad mate are exaggerating the pay and days off numbers.

You are going to be sorely disappointed when you get to 4th year and you are not making that kind of money without having only 12 days off.

I enjoy working here and don't regret the decision to come to jetblue but you are doing a disservice to potential applicants by giving them a false sense of what is achievable pay wise.

 

[flydoc]

I am baseing my numbers on the guys in my crash pad, and friends of mine. Most 3-4 year JFK bus FO's are makeing $100k-$120k per year with 15-17 days off/mo. Yes this does include perdiem, night, international, selling back PTO hours etc. It seems like the norm. from what I hear, but everyones situation is different.

That's about right...

6yr, 320 FO, on track for 130+; commuter, and spend about 15 days/mo at home. The pay is not bad. QOL sucks. I think we can make the most gains on QOL.

Much like 3A any other airline acquiring Jetblue will force us to negotiate individually. Unlike 3A, a seniority integration does not yield a large dividend therefore pro-bono legal representation is highly unlikely.

This needs correcting, no doubt

Add to this trying to prove 15 A.(i) "manages or directs" under Control. Oh, and don't forget 15 C.(ii) "the total aggregate annual ASMs of such domestic carriers does not exceed 10% of the Airline’s annual ASMs at any time" which allows an alter ego airline with any aircraft.

Not true. The wording allows for merger of the lists if either 50 seats or greater, or 10% ASMs. Doesn't have to be both. The real problem with this section lies in the "control" section, not the qualifiers for aircraft size or ASMs.

I do not mean to insult you so forgive me but this is the problem with our pilot group. Most cannot read, don't care to read, trust management or PVC or whatever excuse you may think of. These documents are very bad for us. The potential benefits are greatly outweighed by the simple fact we cannot enforce any of it.

I, like you, have read through these docs. The first ones presented and the latest ones. I, too, voted no. There are problems with them. I do think that the company is on the right track, but the docs aren't there yet. The biggest problem is the lack of faith between the pilot group and the company. I believe the documents can be corrected, but two questions remain: Is the company willing to do that? and are they dealing in good faith?

I am not willing to sign over a half-a$$ed piece of paper in the hopes of fixing it later. To the people that said "it's better than what we have," I say "BS." The company asks us to "trust them." If you "trust them," you don't need a half-a$$ed document to do it. All that document is a piece of paper to make you feel better about doing a job for a company that has already lined out how they are going to screw you by carving out exceptions. I'd rather not have that false conception. I'd rather know the screwing is coming. At least then I have a chance to tense up before they try to slip it in...

 

[Smarta$$]

FlyDoc, honest question. If you are spending 15 days a month at home, and making what you consider to be good money, what specifically makes the QOL poor?

What are the areas that need improvement in your view?

 

[Cheesehead1]

I think it is interesting that we don't know yet if said docs passed or not. We knew within an hour of the alpa vote that it didn't pass...

 

[MikeSF340]

I'm going to training soon and don't really understand what these "docs" are or where I can read them. What is their purpose, who drafts them, are they binding, and what are the latest ones about? Thanks a lot......

 

[n757st]

The documents that every one is taking about are amendments to our PEAs that are supposed to give us some of the tools a CBA might provide without actually having a CBA. They fall short in a lot of measurements, first and for most by not having a definitions section.

As for pay, a lot of the discrepancy is commuter vs non commuter, 320 vs 190. As a 2nd year 320 non commuter I'm on task for ~95k, including an average of about 13 days off. I COULD NOT DO THIS AS A COMMUTER! The commuters making the big bucks with QOL to spare are the JFK guys flying aruba turns with a DH or have STI,SDQ etc one day lines. Those guys can make 100 hrs with 17 days off.

 

[Otto77]

Surprised the docs passed by that big of a margin. Could get real interesting around here.

 

[Lake Alice]

Most of our pilots make more money than many Legacy carrier pilots. With Captains makeing over 200k a year and a lot of FO's makeing over 100k a year. True, most legacy FO's make 100k+, but they are also doing that at 50 years old with 15+ years at the company. Our guys are doing it with 3+ years at JB. Many guys also have a better QOL. Not exactly leading the race to the bottom. Unemployment line? Really? How many JB pilots have ever been furloghed? I can't remember. Oh ya. "0".

Yes, Things need to be improved upon. Yes, in a court of law our 5 docs. will be torn apart, and probably not worth the paper they are printed on. A CBA might have been better for the group, but a CBA would also get torn apart in a court of law. That has been proven over and over again, and 1100+ of our pilots here have witnessed that first hand. Every JB pilot is just hoping the cards all fall in our direction, myself included of course.

I understand your anger and dissapointment, but this bolded section of your quote is complete incorrect and false.

We have no merger protection. The 2 mil is subject to dispersal AFTER we exhaust our individual resources. We have no scope clause. Do you know what the trigger is for section 15? We pay at least 20% more for health insurance than any other carrier. The DRM is an auto denial and where will you get the money/legal support to navigate mediation and arbitration. We have a 5% retirement which is anywhere between 8-20% less than every other carrier. We cannot differentiate between a sick bank and a vacation bank. Jetblue can appoint anyone they want to any committee we have except the PVC. I can continue.
The only bonus we have is we make an equal salary for substantially more work.

The characterization is overly fair.

 

[Flyby1206]

Surprised the docs passed by that big of a margin. Could get real interesting around here.

Me too, I thought it would pass by a small margin, but damn....

 

[Blue Dude]

It is difficult to overestimate the gullibility of this pilot group.

 

[StarChecker]

Every JB pilot is just hoping the cards all fall in our direction, myself included of course.

Don't speak for me....you don't speak for me. I'm trying to plan a career here and provide for my family ON SOMETHING OTHER THAN HOPE!

Is that all you got, Bluebelle?....HOPE?!?!

Keep hoping...let me know how much "hope" is going to make JetBlue something more than "it's better than Mesa"....putz

 

[MikeSF340]

What were the new docs about and what will change? THANKS!

 

[Otto77]

What were the new docs about and what will change? THANKS!

Changes to our individual PEA

 

[Flyby1206]

What were the new docs about and what will change? THANKS!

Basically outlines how bad things can be (Scope, codeshares, mergers, etc), and now it is something that the pilot group overwhelmingly approved. As opposed to something management crams down our throats.

I believe the next step is for it to be sent out to the entire pilot group so that we can each sign a piece of paper approving this change to our PEA (Personal Employment Agreement). I am still curious what happens if someone doesnt sign this ammendment.

See this thread:
http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=144584

 

[Beechnut]

Basically outlines how bad things can be (Scope, codeshares, mergers, etc), and now it is something that the pilot group overwhelmingly approved. As opposed to something management crams down our throats.

I believe the next step is for it to be sent out to the entire pilot group so that we can each sign a piece of paper approving this change to our PEA (Personal Employment Agreement). I am still curious what happens if someone doesnt sign this ammendment.

See this thread:
http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=144584

I'll let you know when I don't.

 

[BeachBummer]

i'll let you know when i don't.

~~~+1~~~

 

[Lake Alice]

Whether you sign the documents or not is irrelevant. The very fact that one pilot WILL sign them places all of us under the same umbrella. Should you decide to not sign you forfeit your portion of the 2 million dollars you may request after we are subject to a transactional event. Keep in mind the roughly 800 dollars you may request may be handed out AFTER you exhaust your own personal resources.

 

[$$$4nothin]

Don't speak for me....you don't speak for me. I'm trying to plan a career here and provide for my family ON SOMETHING OTHER THAN HOPE!

Is that all you got, Bluebelle?....HOPE?!?!

Keep hoping...let me know how much "hope" is going to make JetBlue something more than "it's better than Mesa"....putz

That is understandable, and I appoligize for speaking for you. If you don't hope that the cards fall well for the JB pilot group that is ok. Why you wouldn't hope that this experiment works out well for yourself doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It seems to me that you would want to keep your seniority at JB and have this job work out well, but hey to each there own. It beats going to the bottom of another seniority list and hopeing that job works out.

The next question I have is if you are so hell bent on going somewhere else, what place is that. Delta, SW, FEDEX? I am currious, as this is the question a lot of guys are asking themselves.

I am really interested as it appears our carreer paths have been very similar. Ex Airnet, 145 regional carrier, now JB

 

[Beechnut]

Whether you sign the documents or not is irrelevant. The very fact that one pilot WILL sign them places all of us under the same umbrella. Should you decide to not sign you forfeit your portion of the 2 million dollars you may request after we are subject to a transactional event. Keep in mind the roughly 800 dollars you may request may be handed out AFTER you exhaust your own personal resources.

Pathetic. I won't be draining the family resources down to nothing so be able to collect a crappy 800 from some half mythical 2 million. I'll keep my right to grieve with others without company permission.

 

[Lake Alice]

I suspect Jetblue leaderships expects the same.

 

[BeachBummer]

The next question I have is if you are so hell bent on going somewhere else, what place is that. Delta, SW, FEDEX? I am currious, as this is the question a lot of guys are asking themselves.

The thing is, is that I don't believe that most if anyone really wants to leave. If they do, let em go. But That's why many of us are so perplexed by these documents. I don't wanna go anywhere... but I'm not going to sign some thing that leaves all the windows and back door open.

If your worried about getting your fair share of that 2million... I laugh at you. Your share gets smaller with every new hire. $2000000/2300pilots= $869. Have fun buying your consultation and luch at wendy's on the way out the door.

These things are supposed to cover us in worst case scenerios and it doesn't even help us in some of the best ones.

 

[RiddleEagle18]

If we were part of a union we would be taking care of these cost ourselves as well. ALPA merger policy does not allow national funds or regular dues to be used during a merger(that may only be an ALPA/ALPA merger).


We would all have to pay into a seperate merger fund. I realize we would be able to use these funds collectivley though.

I wonder if it would be possible to set up our own fund similar to the BPF, with the sole purpose of collective merger representation, wether through the PVC or separately.

The reality is that we would have to pay for it either way.



Anybody think the JBPA will start up again?

 

[Flyby1206]

If we were part of a union we would be taking care of these cost ourselves as well. ALPA merger policy does not allow national funds or regular dues to be used during a merger(that may only be an ALPA/ALPA merger).


We would all have to pay into a seperate merger fund. I realize we would be able to use these funds collectivley though.

I wonder if it would be possible to set up our own fund similar to the BPF, with the sole purpose of collective merger representation, wether through the PVC or separately.

The reality is that we would have to pay for it either way.

Sounds like a good idea to me. I think there should be a separate elected merger committee that woud be in charge of using these funds if/when the moment came up.