Jetblue Pilot Strength and Unionizing

[lowecur]

p.s. lowecur

nobody I hear on the SWAPA website or anywhere is discouraging/encouraging any discussions about this issue...Soooo....it's being discussed. Care to elaborate what the faithful are saying? I hear you guys/gals always take the first offer mgt makes on the section 6. If there is a 15-20% haircut requested, will you guys/gals.........just go along for the good of the company? SWA won't be taking 190/195's anytime soon if ever in my opinion...we obviously differ on it, OK, fine but if they do it won't be because of these "proposed" pay scales....if they elect to do in the future I'll buy you an adult beverage but I don't think I'll have to pay up in my lifetime. Will they buy 175's? I'll tell yah Chase, it's a hell of a lot more paletable than taking the haircut. ​

 

[TrumanSparks]

Lowercur,



There is not one single post about the Jet Blue EMB190 pay on the SWAPA message boards, and only one on the Pprune (unofficial) site. There is no talk about the 190 among SWA pilots because it’s not an issue for us. The chances of us getting them or anything else in the near future are very slim. If it happens, then we have a union in place that will negotiate the rates.

PS love Caddyshack, it one of my favorites.

 

[lowecur]

Lowercur,



There is not one single post about the Jet Blue EMB190 pay on the SWAPA message boards, and only one on the Pprune (unofficial) site. Oh well, time to turn out the lights. There is no talk about the 190 among SWA pilots because it’s not an issue for us. The chances of us getting them or anything else in the near future are very slim. If it happens, then we have a union in place that will negotiate the rates.

PS love Caddyshack, it one of my favorites.****The Best!!!

 

[colorado418]

Take cover!!!

I will not speak for Skirt. She can take care of herself with plenty of experience to back it. I just wanted to warn you all to duck!!! Skirt will probably hike up her's and give an arse whooping here soon!!!

Skirt, I'd like you to clarify your statement. Are you now saying that ALPA and Unions are "bad" things? as to the fire, that's the attitude that results in million acre forest fires. when do you call the fire department? when the flames hit 50 feet?

If you don't want ALPA, then don't get ALPA. If you don't want to pay 1.95% (a BARGAIN), then DON'T!! personally I thinks it's foolish not to get a good union with COMREHENSIVE protection. this isn't just about pay. Who are you gonna call when that inevitable bent wingtip happens? do you honestly trust Dave that much? What if it's a MX issue and that manager is more interested in protecting his Arse than yours? Who's going to bat for YOU? Do you have the potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars to hire a defense team to protect you? Do you have access to some of the most respected accident/incident investigators in the world? but back to the 1.95%. you don't want to pay it? then fine, take up a fricken donut collection and ORGANIZE. you don't HAVE to have an adversarial relationship with the company. You are paid standards rates. you don't get merit pay increases. your value is as a GROUP, NOT individually. do you think this was a simple oversight? A faux pas? then wouldn't you think a JB pilots association (sorry, a JB "crewmembers club") would have BENEFITTED the company? Let's see, ole Dave could have gotten on the horn with Dizel (one of the few rational "been around the block" guys) and said "Hey D8, I'm thinking about new 190 pay rates, what would the "crewmember" think of these numbers?" then D8 could say "Well Dave, I think they'd see them as a slap in the face. They are already telling everybody just how much of a caring saint you are and these rates would prove otherwise, so I think they should be 20% higher and I think the effect would be a happier, more productive "crewmember" and would keep Jblu as the carrier of choice for those who plan to die before retirement age". Dave "well D8 I hadn't thought of that, after reviewing the numbers, will 15% work?" D8 "Sure Dave!! Hugs and kisses, you're still my pal!! friends to the end, hidy ho!!"

the simple question is why WOULDN'T they want you guys organized so that you COULD speak with ONE voice. "No Dave, over 8 hours of flying in a duty day is stupid!!" "No dave, min turn crew rest after an all nighter is dangerous..."

 

[T-Bags]

Colorado, only the first part was directed at Skirt. In the past Skirt was VERY PRO-union. she knew what could happen if a management team starts messing up. My simple question to her is has that all changed now after a few months at "blu" but as you pointed out, Skirt can "defend" herself, she doesn't need prop boy spouting off...

 

[Tref]

I'm curious as to why so many JB pilots seem to have such an adversarial and self important attitude. I've never seen so many people from one airline with such a "we're the best and we're going to put you all out of business" attitude.

Now I'm sure everyone at JB isn't this way, and there have been some very reasonable posts, but there does seem to be a very disproportionate number of hostile posts from JB pilots.

Before any JB pilots get upset reading this, please hear me out, 'cause I'm on your side; that side being the side of pilots everywhere. Unfortunately, that seems to be the concept that I have seen lacking in many of these posts.

You see, no matter how your management wants you to view the world, the truth is that none of us lives in a vacuum. We're all in this together. And while I think it's great to be proud of your company and to work hard to make it successful, it doesn't have to come at the expense of others.

When things are bad at one airline, it lowers the bar for everyone. Now, I know that JB pilots weren't involved with setting the new EMB pay rates, but the reality is that they could've been. And it's not fair to all of the other pilots in this industry to say "fine, if you don't like it, don't work here." Because the reality of the situation is that it does affect everyone.

Somehow, someway we're all going to have to get it into our heads that we're all in this thing together. Our various companies want us to be divided, so they can whipsaw us against each other in this race to the bottom.

We all have to quit being our own worst enemies. Senior -vs- Junior, Regionals -vs- mainlines, LCCs -vs- everyone. We need to find a way to work together to improve things in this industry because it's starting to look pretty bleak.

 

[G4G5]

I will bet you dollars to donuts, that if you were a McFly on the Wall over at the SWAPA website you would hear most of the guys/gals being told not to air their feeling about the 190 contract over at Flightinfo. I'll bet they have been told "it's an in house discussion," and to keep it that way.

You can also bet that they are discussing the ramifications the 190 contract will have at the next Section 6 discussions. My guess is they will be reluctant to take a 15 to 20% haircut, and suggest Herb & Co bring in the E-jet.

Remember........Collective Bargaining=Adversarial Relationship=Eventual Failure. Unions are for people who can't think for themselves.

I just finished playing a softball game with my buddy who is a LUV pilot. I play 3rd he is SS, so we have plenty of time to chat once a week. He's been there since Midway went under and is what I would consider "active" in the company.

His point are very clear SWA has evaluated the 737 vs the 190 and come up with the cold hard truth. THEY DON'T NEED THE 190! Once again take a look at how may 737's they have on order. LUV is taking the approach that if they want to go head to head with a legacy carrier they want to do it with an aircraft that is capable of carrying 150+ people.

Where are you getting this 15-20% pay reduction garbage from. Opinion is on thing, reality is another. Ther is nothing factual to back up this BS. The LUV pilots have this little thing called a contract that runs for the next few years.

Time to change the water in the bong cheech.

 

[G4G5]

As far as Jetblue and a union.

I don't know if now is the time but it is extremely naive on anyones part to thing that they consistantly grow to the size predicted and still be the only airline without a union.

I have watched ALPA screw family members of mine (TWA & Pan Am). I've had 3 years with the APA. Neither union is what I would consider something to be proud of. BUT like insurance, they are a necessary part of the business.

 

[chase]

SWAPA negotiated raises for the past two years (+7% '02, +4% '03, +11.5% 9/04), so giving anything back hasn't occurred & won't I suspect. Just wanted to get the correct word out there. This was all done as an extension to our latest contract that was originally negotiated in '94 that was due to expire in '03 but the pilots approved (against the advice of a majority of our elected union officials BTW) an extension through '06....it will reward all pilots nicely along with an attempt to offset the variable number of stock options given to newly hired pilots from the '94 timeframe on. Hope that adds to the conspiracy that SWA doesn't compensate its pilots properly. cheers

 

[lowecur]

I just finished playing a softball game with my buddy who is a LUV pilot. I play 3rd he is SS, so we have plenty of time to chat once a week. Yeah, I used to play third on a fast pitch team. Haven't played in years, but I luved the game. He's been there since Midway went under and is what I would consider "active" in the company.

His point are very clear SWA has evaluated the 737 vs the 190 and come up with the cold hard truth. THEY DON'T NEED THE 190! Once again take a look at how may 737's they have on order. I have. LUV is taking the approach that if they want to go head to head with a legacy carrier they want to do it with an aircraft that is capable of carrying 150+ people. So the 737-8 will be their next order, or maybe the 7E7(getting out of the commonality genre).

Where are you getting this 15-20% pay reduction garbage from. Oh, just my opinion as an amateur analyst. I'm sure you saw the remark by Jamie Baker that the difference in seat cost between the 190 and the current WN contract for the 737 is 33%. Now of course due to the fact the 190 is not on property and won't be in descent numbers until the end of 2006, pressure to adjust the WN contract downward won't be felt until that time. I see Chase just posted another raise is due in Sept of 11%. Add that on top of the new FA contract, and you have a receipe for flat to marginal earnings in 2005 & 2006 (even with the growth prospects). The Casm increase in the first quarter went from 7.5 in 2003 to 7.82 in 2004. .24 of the .32 increase was from wage and benefits. That doesn't take into consideration the new FA contract or the 11% raise for the pilots coming up. The a/c orders are 131(47 coming this year) firm 737NG till 2008, and about 90 options. This will obviously include some retirement of older a/c, so the net affect may not be that large. Opinion is on thing, reality is another. Ther is nothing factual to back up this BS. The LUV pilots have this little thing called a contract that runs for the next few years.

Time to change the water in the bong cheech. No illegal drugs for me, just high class script meds.

.....

 

[chase]

A question was asked in the webcast in Apr the impact of the pilot wages on the bottom line. CFO responded the cost savings in the closing of the 3 res centers & the loss of 1100 employees more than offset any gain that might have been caused by the pilot pay increase.

The number of persons on property at the end of 2003 were fewer than the number of folks on property end '02. CFO expects the #s to remain flat or actually smaller at the end of '04 than end of '03....more internal hiring for FAs & a freeze on external hires....bodies are being shuffled around throughout the system in an attempt to fill holes with overmannings...previous communications from HHQ indicates cost savings are paramount so overmanned areas can expect to have voluntary (first option) moves to undermanned areas, then expect the next round (next 6 months to 1 yr) to have announcements stating that folks will be relocated to a new location, same job if there are slots or to a new location & new job if the situation requires it. Failure for enough volunteers will result in forced moves which may result in folks saying goodbye to SWA....it is a fact of life & even SWA can't avoid it but is attempting to make the pain as little as possible. We'll see how it all plays out but I believe we will continue to do well & grow at the 10% range that has been planned for but with larger profit margins in the '05, '06...capital expenditures are expected to decrease in the next coming years as the investment in infrastructure has been occurring over the last few years (ISP, HOU, MDW, etc), this will set SWA up for some solid growth in the future. cheers,

 

[lowecur]

A question was asked in the webcast in Apr the impact of the pilot wages on the bottom line. Didn't include the FA contract in that little diddy. I'll make another one of my favorite predictions......I say you will see the CASM shoot past 8 sometime in the next 12 months, and stay there. CFO responded the cost savings in the closing of the 3 res centers & the loss of 1100 employees more than offset any gain that might have been caused by the pilot pay increase.

We'll see how it all plays out but I believe we will continue to do well & grow at the 10% range that has been planned for but with larger profit margins in the '05, '06...capital expenditures are expected to decrease in the next coming years as the investment in infrastructure has been occurring over the last few years (ISP, HOU, MDW, etc), this will set SWA up for some solid growth in the future. cheers. Everything sounds hunkydory.........except you really don't know the affect the 190 will have on yields. All Gary's numbers are based on LUV having continued pricing power. As you say, "We'll see how it all plays out"

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