Hmmm...I wonder how many DL, AA, US, FDX, UPS, SWA guys have their app I at JB......
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Hmmm...I wonder how many DL, AA, US, FDX, UPS, SWA guys have their app I at JB......
FurloughedAgain
Cabin Heating & Air Tech.
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For the interest of discussion, I'm a 40 yo corporate pilot for a Fortune 500 company and I recently applied to jetBlue. I'm not new to the airlines - flew 121 for about a decade until furloughed by USAir after 9/11. After reading comments like those above, I took a chance and found this corporate job. I've been here for almost ten years.
When I started, it was the best kept secret in aviation. We worked mostly Monday through Friday. We rarely worked weekends and almost never worked holidays. Most trips were day trips and we were home by 5:30. Pay was fair for the equipment (light jet) and they took good care of us. Expense control has always been strict, but no money ever came out of pocket for medicals, CFI renewals, gym fees on the road etc.
In 2007 I was recalled by USAir and, with a young family at home, I made the tough (but not TOO tough) decision to stay where I was. When that final recall came, I declined.
Now it's important to realize that my company is vehemently non union and, like most corporate jobs, there is no contract. So a few weeks after I declined recall, the company sent out an email that said we would no longer ferry airplanes empty just to get crews home. If the airplane wasn't needed at home, we would stay on the road. They experimented with month-long TDY stays on the west coast. They changed our schedule time and time again. In 2010 they decided our headcount was too high and laid off 10 pilots. But unlike part 121 there was no recall for those pilots... And the "layoff" did not take seniority or longevity into account. They fired a pilot hired with me, and they fired a pilot who was hired by the company founder 30 years earlier. Some people who were let go had gotten on the wrong side of chief pilots or managers. Others... We still don't know why.
In its wake we have run extremely short staffed. So much so that vacations are frequently denied, and our days-off schedule suspended, "all hands on deck". That has happened 5 times in 2013 alone.
They throw money at us from time to time, increasing the bonus by 10%, or adding a few percent to our salary -- but money doesn't solve everything. If we complain we are told that we are lucky to have jobs. We are told that despite an upcoming pilot shortage management doesn't believe that will ever be a problem at our department. Pilots are disciplined secretly and often in violation of company policy. Recently we were told that two of our days off per month are "flex" and during the 2 week flex period (when days off can be moved anywhere within the period) we would not be permitted to take vacation. Chief pilots are patronizing and often rude and disrespectful. They do not advocate for us - oftentimes yielding to expense control rather than what is in the best interest of the crew. (Like making crews drive over an hour to find hotels in budget)
There is no contract, no grievance process, or even anything in writing (like your 5 documents). When one pilot brought up a violation of our FOM he was taken to breakfast and told he needed to "be more of a team player" and then that section of the FOM mysteriously disappeared. Our open door policy doesn't really work because there are 3 levels of management you have to go through before you even get out of the department. The good ol boys network is in full force here. Management's favorites are chosen for desirable flying (or trips with dignitaries or heads of state). When the department bought a big airplane for international, pilots had to interview for the position... Some had been here for 15+ years and were forced to endure 2 interviews and write an essay for an upgrade. One was asked during the interview, "Tell us why you think your Copilots don't like you?" Nice.
The problem is most of us are in our 40s with kids in school. We are paid enough that it would be difficult to leave and start over (around 120 with bonus in a very low cost of living part of the US). We are trapped by golden handcuffs. Nobody has left voluntarily since 2009. Waiting for AA or DAL to call is a gamble due to our age. They may never call, or if they do we may blow the interview. Since we fly mostly light jets, we aren't particularly competitive at departments that fly heavier equipment. So when a company like jetBlue calls, it seems like an improvement even given the opportunities for improvement there.
Don't get me wrong. I love my job. I've seen amazing parts of the world. We get rental cars on every overnight and i have used them to tour volcanos and glaciers, museums, and see baseball games. I've spent weeks in Vegas, Hilton Head, Anchorage, and everywhere in between. The airplanes are well maintained (if not particularly comfortable).
But that said, having done a decade of 121 and a decade of part 91 corporate... I really think I am better suited to part 121. I miss the flexibility of bidding a schedule, and having written documents that describe what scheduling is and is not allowed to do. Having a voice instead of just having changes shoved down my throat.
It makes me really sad because, like I said, I love this job. I love where I live. If they would improve the scheduling, ease up on hotel budget issues, and replace the chief pilots with pilot advocates who treat us with respect I would stay. I feel too old to keep starting over. And I am terrified about leaving. I am afraid because of what I read on this board and others that I am making another terrible decision - one that will negatively impact my family financially and in QOL. It keeps me up nights... And I haven't even gotten a job offer from JB so there is really no decision to make yet. I don't know how old the jB pilots who are applying to AA, DAL, UAL are but at 40 I hear the clock ticking. I can't wait on the off chance that AA or DAL "might" call and that if they do I "might" get hired. That isn't to say I don't have my airlineapps.com all filled out and updated - I do. But so do thousands of other pilots, including some from your company who have been flying big airplanes a lot longer than I did.
Just thought I would share this perspective from an applicant who isn't probably the typical.
(If you know the department I am talking about, please don't mention by name - it's a small world and I don't want any retaliation if I am not picked up by jB or if for whatever reason I choose not to accept the job.)
When I started, it was the best kept secret in aviation. We worked mostly Monday through Friday. We rarely worked weekends and almost never worked holidays. Most trips were day trips and we were home by 5:30. Pay was fair for the equipment (light jet) and they took good care of us. Expense control has always been strict, but no money ever came out of pocket for medicals, CFI renewals, gym fees on the road etc.
In 2007 I was recalled by USAir and, with a young family at home, I made the tough (but not TOO tough) decision to stay where I was. When that final recall came, I declined.
Now it's important to realize that my company is vehemently non union and, like most corporate jobs, there is no contract. So a few weeks after I declined recall, the company sent out an email that said we would no longer ferry airplanes empty just to get crews home. If the airplane wasn't needed at home, we would stay on the road. They experimented with month-long TDY stays on the west coast. They changed our schedule time and time again. In 2010 they decided our headcount was too high and laid off 10 pilots. But unlike part 121 there was no recall for those pilots... And the "layoff" did not take seniority or longevity into account. They fired a pilot hired with me, and they fired a pilot who was hired by the company founder 30 years earlier. Some people who were let go had gotten on the wrong side of chief pilots or managers. Others... We still don't know why.
In its wake we have run extremely short staffed. So much so that vacations are frequently denied, and our days-off schedule suspended, "all hands on deck". That has happened 5 times in 2013 alone.
They throw money at us from time to time, increasing the bonus by 10%, or adding a few percent to our salary -- but money doesn't solve everything. If we complain we are told that we are lucky to have jobs. We are told that despite an upcoming pilot shortage management doesn't believe that will ever be a problem at our department. Pilots are disciplined secretly and often in violation of company policy. Recently we were told that two of our days off per month are "flex" and during the 2 week flex period (when days off can be moved anywhere within the period) we would not be permitted to take vacation. Chief pilots are patronizing and often rude and disrespectful. They do not advocate for us - oftentimes yielding to expense control rather than what is in the best interest of the crew. (Like making crews drive over an hour to find hotels in budget)
There is no contract, no grievance process, or even anything in writing (like your 5 documents). When one pilot brought up a violation of our FOM he was taken to breakfast and told he needed to "be more of a team player" and then that section of the FOM mysteriously disappeared. Our open door policy doesn't really work because there are 3 levels of management you have to go through before you even get out of the department. The good ol boys network is in full force here. Management's favorites are chosen for desirable flying (or trips with dignitaries or heads of state). When the department bought a big airplane for international, pilots had to interview for the position... Some had been here for 15+ years and were forced to endure 2 interviews and write an essay for an upgrade. One was asked during the interview, "Tell us why you think your Copilots don't like you?" Nice.
The problem is most of us are in our 40s with kids in school. We are paid enough that it would be difficult to leave and start over (around 120 with bonus in a very low cost of living part of the US). We are trapped by golden handcuffs. Nobody has left voluntarily since 2009. Waiting for AA or DAL to call is a gamble due to our age. They may never call, or if they do we may blow the interview. Since we fly mostly light jets, we aren't particularly competitive at departments that fly heavier equipment. So when a company like jetBlue calls, it seems like an improvement even given the opportunities for improvement there.
Don't get me wrong. I love my job. I've seen amazing parts of the world. We get rental cars on every overnight and i have used them to tour volcanos and glaciers, museums, and see baseball games. I've spent weeks in Vegas, Hilton Head, Anchorage, and everywhere in between. The airplanes are well maintained (if not particularly comfortable).
But that said, having done a decade of 121 and a decade of part 91 corporate... I really think I am better suited to part 121. I miss the flexibility of bidding a schedule, and having written documents that describe what scheduling is and is not allowed to do. Having a voice instead of just having changes shoved down my throat.
It makes me really sad because, like I said, I love this job. I love where I live. If they would improve the scheduling, ease up on hotel budget issues, and replace the chief pilots with pilot advocates who treat us with respect I would stay. I feel too old to keep starting over. And I am terrified about leaving. I am afraid because of what I read on this board and others that I am making another terrible decision - one that will negatively impact my family financially and in QOL. It keeps me up nights... And I haven't even gotten a job offer from JB so there is really no decision to make yet. I don't know how old the jB pilots who are applying to AA, DAL, UAL are but at 40 I hear the clock ticking. I can't wait on the off chance that AA or DAL "might" call and that if they do I "might" get hired. That isn't to say I don't have my airlineapps.com all filled out and updated - I do. But so do thousands of other pilots, including some from your company who have been flying big airplanes a lot longer than I did.
Just thought I would share this perspective from an applicant who isn't probably the typical.
(If you know the department I am talking about, please don't mention by name - it's a small world and I don't want any retaliation if I am not picked up by jB or if for whatever reason I choose not to accept the job.)
Last edited:
johnsonrod
Well-known member
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- Feb 25, 2006
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This is a small industry and people talk.
Plenty of my former FOs have gone to JB and several now regret it and are looking elsewhere. I'm happy you love it there... I, however, am applying elsewhere. Don't worry, I'll look out for your big, bada$$ A320 when I am in the pattern next time. Congrats on winning the airline career lotto at JB!!!!
Last edited:
pilotpayne
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2003
- Posts
- 272
This is a small industry and people talk.
Plenty of my former FOs have gone to JB and several now regret it and are looking elsewhere. I'm happy you love it there... I, however, am applying elsewhere. Don't worry, I'll look out for your big, bada$$ A320 when I am in the pattern next time. Congrats on winning the airline career lotto at JB!!!!
Man what is your problem? You don't even work at JetBlue.
Really sad that you worry about a place you don't even work at.
This is a small industry and people talk.
Plenty of my former FOs have gone to JB and several now regret it and are looking elsewhere. I'm happy you love it there... I, however, am applying elsewhere. Don't worry, I'll look out for your big, bada$$ A320 when I am in the pattern next time. Congrats on winning the airline career lotto at JB!!!!
Just an observation Ace. I didn't mention you tooling around in your E145 to to have anything to do with it's size. If you claimed to be flying a 747 I would have said tooling around in his 747. The point was you don't fly what Jet Blue flies or fly under their work rules, and you don't fly for Jet Blue. By the way, if you look at my Avatar you can see the bulk of my flying career was flying jets smaller than yours. I don't need my big bad a$$ A320 to prove my manhood. Although I believe you need to bash Jet Blue to justify your Very Crappy job. Again,just an observation.
johnsonrod
Well-known member
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- Posts
- 4,218
Thanks Dad. You're employed there and I have no intention on ever applying based on what current employees tell me. When compared to all of the majors and several of the other fast growing LCCs, I see very few positives at JB but you think you hit the career lotto. Good for you! If current JB E190 Captains are applying to United, it can't be too great....
This is a small industry and people talk.
Plenty of my former FOs have gone to JB and several now regret it and are looking elsewhere. I'm happy you love it there... I, however, am applying elsewhere. Don't worry, I'll look out for your big, bada$$ A320 when I am in the pattern next time. Congrats on winning the airline career lotto at JB!!!!
Sorry, I don't buy that your former FO's regret going to Jetblue when they'd otherwise be dealing with the clown show and stagnation at XJT. QOL even for those in base at Xjt stinks, ask me how I know after bidding for June.
johnsonrod
Well-known member
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I didn't say JB versus XJT. They regret not getting in with CAL (several previously EWR-based buddies could be close to bidding 787 FO had they chosen CAL instead of JB across town), Delta (two friends turned down offers for DAL interviews after starting at JB years ago), Spirit (one buddy had offers from both and would easily be a Captain at Spirit by now instead of stagnating on the Bus as an FO after several years at JB with little movement) and Atlas (offered classes at both Atlas and JB years ago - he chose JB and now he regrets it). It happens - you make the wrong choice in your mind and then regret the result. The slow career progression, lack of union protection (inherent distrust of management) and sub-par health coverage/high cost are frequently cited as reasons for looking around. That said, I also know a few JB guys who are happy there.
Look, it's your careers - not mine. Go where you want to go. It's all a roll of the dice in this industry. How many people would have thought 10-15 years ago that AA would have furloughed so many pilots? If you are really happy/content with your situation at JB, that's great.
Peace out!
Last edited:
gearjockey
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2006
- Posts
- 134
Dam, not this turkey again. Shouldn't you be serving as a character witness for your Padre in Cleveland? You're like that kid in 7th grade who goes down the locker hall, snatching backpacks from your favorite little boys every other week. I know you're interested in Atlas. Awesome; a 17 day trip with johnsonrod. "Son, would you mind checking the pallets, AGAIN". I don't know how many enemies you have, but i'm guessing your "friends" intensely dislike you.
johnsonrod
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Last edited:
NoJoy
LAMA/400
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FurloughedAgain
Cabin Heating & Air Tech.
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BoeingBaller
Well-known member
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- Oct 26, 2002
- Posts
- 280
Exodus. Movement of Jah people! Oh, yeah!
I'm in Orlando and met a new hire class by the pool. All but 2 have their APPS out and will leave once they are hired by a Major. The other 2 have ZERO PIC time.
The reasons they plan to leave are: uncompetitive Hourly Rate, Below Average Retirement, bad PTO accrual, no sick time and no Vacation.
I really cannot imagine new hires at DAL/UAL/SWA, etc ever having these conversations.
The reasons they plan to leave are: uncompetitive Hourly Rate, Below Average Retirement, bad PTO accrual, no sick time and no Vacation.
I really cannot imagine new hires at DAL/UAL/SWA, etc ever having these conversations.
FurloughedAgain
Cabin Heating & Air Tech.
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2002
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Curious. I know there are a few hundred former USAir pilots at jetBlue who were furloughed post 9/11 and chose to stay at jB rather than accept recall. Their last recall offer was probably around 2007. Have any had a change of heart and are any of them reapplying and trying to get an interview to go back to USAir now?
Just wondering what the thinking is from people who are/were in my peer group.
Just wondering what the thinking is from people who are/were in my peer group.
Flyby1206
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I have flown with some who have regrets for not taking recall when they could have, considering the AA merger and all. I am not sure if they are re-applying to US now, but I wouldnt be surprised.
I fly with a lot of those guys. So far none have said they regret it or are going back. Many of those guys are in their fifties, have great seniority and make a lot of money. With some seniority JetBlue can be very lucrative. I know the retirement and insurance are lacking, but the US Air pay rates have been so low it probably made no sense to go back. Also, this merger just happened and back in 2007 there would have been no indication that American was going to be a factor. It's hard leaving a $160,000+ job at a fairly stable company. Probably couldn't go wrong if the decision was made today.
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