jetblue EMB-190 pay??!!!

[skirt]

To put in pilot terms we can all appreciate; let's just hack the clock and smoke our figurative pipes now that the master-caution light has illuminated....cause the "airplane" isn't gonna fall out of the sky in the next five minutes.

Speedbird, very well said. I have been mulling over this for the last 48 hours. Its important for everyone to relax, take a deep breath and have good solid dialog within the company, without jumping to conclusions about intentions or futures. I've worked in environments where the partial story is taken as the full story and dander flies without solid discussion, chest beating replaces mature thinking and nobody wins. Not good.

Having said this, I do think it is important to ask the hard questions and listen to the answers. So far, this process is still too much in its infancy to go off the deep end with wild reactions. Lets discuss this internally like the professionals that we are. David and Dave get out in the field far more than most leaders, so it is easy to have these discussions openly.

Skirt

 

[G4G5]

It took a little over a year of existence here at JetBlue to get a 32% raise DURING the middle of my contract. Starting pay for a 1st year captain was $78/hour for the A-320 four years ago. Listen, the 190 is still over a year away, they had to publish a list, so there you have it. I'm going on my fourth year here and as a captain made over 160,000 last year, without including profit sharing! It's not 300 grand, but it pays for the house, wife and kids... So I don't have a summer home or I don't get to send the kids to a private school. At least I'm not selling insurance. It ticks me off when you try to compare 717 rates at AAI with ours, do they get paid time/half for their overtime? Didn't think so... I got paid 70 grand with 11 years in the air force-- risked my life for a weed inhaling, lying sex feind of a democrat, was that worth it? I'll take my lifestyle here any day, and if you don't want to work here, then please, don't apply here and waste our time!

According to airlinepilotpay.com 4th year Jetblue pay rate is $118 an hour.

$118x70 hrs a month = $99,120.00
If you made over $160k then you made $61k in overtime.
Overtime pay is 118/2=59, 59+118=$177.00 an hour.
$61,000 / $177.00 = 344 hours of overtime flown in a year.
344 /12 months = 28 hours a month of overtime.
28 + the original 70 = 98 hours of flying a month !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are not going to find any sympathy from the younger Jetblue folks. How many of them have the ability to create a monthly line of time consistantly for a year that allows them to fly 98 hours a month. How many of them want to fly the FAA allowable annual max consistantly for the rest of their careers?

Considering that most B6 pilots are commuters, what kind of quality of life does a 98 hour a month commuter have? Do you actually expect pilots to fly the 190 for 98 hours a month just to make ends meet?

Who hear thinks that 15% profit sharing is consistantly obtainable.

Thanks for the edit tip, 10 minutes only

 

[Truckdriver]

Problem with this statement is we don't have any say in the matter. We, as a pilot group don't have a say as to whether we "accept" the pay or not. The only way we don't accept the pay is if we quit. Mgmt tells us what we're going to be paid, they don't negotiate.

I like this guy. AAFlyer also has a clue as to how this industry operates. It sounds like some people over there may be in the works of organizing a union campaign. You can't bash the JBLU pilots until they have shown that they are in favor of what is going on there. Like Heywood said, they had NO say in this matter. We can only bash them when they continutally vote against unionizing. I think the guys at JBLU will get it right.

Like I said earlier, these pay rates are a direct result of the low rates that SKYW has put on paper. Neelman saw what the SKYW guys were going to fly aircraft for and he based his rates on what those rates were. If you want to bash someone for the rates at JBLU lets bash the premeir non-union carrier in this industry and that is SKYW. They have voted against unionizing time and time again. The last time I think less than a third of the pilots voted for a union. The pilot group at SKYW has shown the rest of us that they are not with us as pilots in this profession. I think just as highly of a SKYW pilot as I do of a Freedom pilot.

 

[80drvr]

According to airlinepilotpay.com 4th year Jetblue pay rate is $118 an hour.

$118x70 hrs a month = $99,120.00
If you made over $160k then you made $61k in overtime.
Overtime pay is 118/2=59, 59+118=$177.00 an hour.
$61,000 / $177.00 = 344 hours of overtime flown in a year.
344 /12 months = 28 hours a month of overtime.
28 + the original 70 = 98 hours of flying a month !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are not going to find any sympathy from the younger Jetblue folks. How many of them have the ability to create a monthly line of time consistantly for a year that allows them to fly 98 hours a month. How many of them want to fly the FAA allowable annual max consistantly for the rest of their careers?

Considering that most B6 pilots are commuters, what kind of quality of life does a 98 hour a month commuter have? Do you actually expect pilots to fly the 190 for 98 hours a month just to make ends meet?

Who hear thinks that 15% profit sharing is consistantly obtainable.

Thanks for the edit tip, 10 minutes only

G4G5, my thoughts exactly on the 160k/year. Is that a sustainable QOL?

 

[Ace757]

OK, all this complainin' and no one has stated what WOULD be a "fair" scale. If you look at other majors, the differential between a 5-yr capt on the biggest to smallest equipment usually falls at between 70-75%. At Independence, the diff (b/w 'bus and CRJ) is 51%. JetBlue stands at 63.6%, midrange within the industry like always (in regards to compensation). So, what does everyone expect? Another $8-10/hr? Someone post a revised 190 scale that would be "adequate", PLEASE! I'm really curious!!!

I think that the Airtran 717 payscale would be a good place to start with the EMB-190. Its definatly a good comparison in the 100 seat market. And if the cost competitivness of the EMB-190 beats all other carriers by 30% like some have said on this thread, then B6 should have no problem matching the pay, and still undercutting a LLC such as Airtran. Its definatly thr right thing to do

http://www.airlinepilotpay.com/airtran/airtran.htm

 

[MW44]

Truckdriver,

I don't see how you can compare JBlue's wages with those at Skywest. You are comparing a good mainline carrier compensation package with an entry level regional job. I don't see NWA demanding that their DC-9 pilots make wages comparable to Mesa CRJ-900 payrates. It looks like David sees airline pilots as "blue collar" workers who should be happy to make less money than the city's busdrivers.

 

[TonyC]

TonyC,

We're no different than any other professional pilot out there. We want to fly great airplanes, we want great work rules with competitive pay and spend a lot of time at home with our families. So Tony, before you go looking down your nose, shaking your head like a condescending father, realize that there is a lot of crap going on behind the scenes that you have no idea about.

Well, I wasn't looking down my nose at you, I wasn't shaking my head, and I don't use the condescending approach with my children. If you FELT that, perhaps it's of your own creation. I was simply pointing out the CONTRAST that exists in the way I've seen JetBlue management described in THIS thread and the way we've seen JetBlue management WORSHIPPED in all other threads. In every other aspect that I've seen discussed, whether it be cleaning airplanes so they can turn in 25 minutes or asking the FAA for an extension to the duty limits so you can be home at the end of a long day or choosing a base, or training, or hiring practices, or... well, you name the issue... management got it right, and "WE" are all in it together. NOW, all of a sudden, management is THEY. THEY did it, THEY didn't ask US, WE didn't get a say in it, THEY'll get the message from US eventually... surely you can see the difference, can't you?

I don't think you can have it both ways. If it's WE, WE, WE in every other aspect, then it should be "WE" in this one as well. I'd just like to see someone of the Color Blue to stand up and say "WE have announced EMB-190 rates that should embarrass the professional pilot."

You say you're like every other pilot - you want to fly great airplanes, you want great work rules and pay rates, you want to be home with your family every night (wait, you wanna be a pilot!?!?) - - but, in fact, you are different in a very fundamental way. You, as a group, have been looking down your collective noses at the majority of the industry and have defended the process under which your pay and work rules have been dictated. You have told us how much better it is to NOT have the adversarial relationship required by a Union. In fact, you are all EXPERTS in the folly of unions (even though the majority of you have never been IN one - - I was in the same shoes once upon a time, so I can empathize, really). You have sneered at us because you've got it so much better. Fine. Now, stop the blatant disingenuity and claim responsibility for the pay rates, too.

Tony your comments serve no useful purpose at this point since you don't have a horse in this race. The only thing you share with jetBlue pilots is the same the airspace our airplanes fly in and that's it. BTW it's Mr. "Neeleman" unless you think you're being witty with that overdone "Needleman" thing. I expect better from you based on your overall postings on this forum.

What? Because I'm not a JetBlue pilot I can't comment? Well, I guess we should all just go away and let the JetBlue pilots have their own little private conversation, huh? Don't be so asinine.

My horse in the race is a career in the aviation industry. What people have been trying to tell you all along is that what you do at JetBlue affects the entire rest of the industry. Do you not think that any other airline will look to the rates JetBlue pays EMB-190 pilots when they seek to lower the rates they pay their own pilots. You've as much as admitted the phenomenon when you rationalized the low rates.

By using similar payrates on the 100-seat 190 that are used for 50-70 seat aircraft, this will allow the labor costs to be zeroied out between the EMB-190 and the aircraft it will compete with (not other 100 seat aircraft but CRJs and other 50-70 regional aircraft).

See there. Even you realize that your company is, to borrow the cliche, NOT an island. You are affected by other airlines, and you affect other airlines. (By the way, it's "zeroed.") Indeed, we share much more than just airspace. If you haven't figured out THAT concept, then I strongly disagree with blahshmah's nomination to have you speak with "David and Dave."

Which brings me to the next point. Not enjoying the same familiarity with your management types, I don't feel as comfortable using given names as surnames. I did not intend to misspell Mr. Neeleman's name, nor did I intend to use it as a witticism. After posting, I looked back through the thread to see if I could find the last name used by a reliable JetBlue poster. The most common spelling I found included the "d" so I left it at that. Even so, I attempted to include a comment indicating I was unsure of the spelling, and to apologize in advance. Alas, the 10 minute limit had expired. I humbly apologize for making the mistake, and I hope you are not so offended by the honest mistake that you've missed the message. (You'll have to admit, Neeleman is slightly easier to misspell than Smith. )

Now, back to the quote I've already mentioned... Once more, for clarity:

I'll bet David & Dave based rates with an offensive mind-set on how to kick the competiton's rump. By using similar payrates on the 100-seat 190 that are used for 50-70 seat aircraft, this will allow the labor costs to be zeroied out between the EMB-190 and the aircraft it will compete with (not other 100 seat aircraft but CRJs and other 50-70 regional aircraft).

I don't have time to offer a complete tutorial on the history of the airline industry, or even the aspect of pilots' compensation. Let me just ask you one question: If this mindset had been employed when developing pay rates for the 707 when it was first introduced, how do you think pilots would be paid today? If the primary consideration had been, "Let's pay the pilots the same as pilots on those smaller, slower, propellor-driven things the other guys are flying so we won't be at a labor cost disadvantage," how do you suppose you and I would be paid today? If the goal was, as you say, to pay the 50-70 seat rate on the 100-seat jet, so you could compete, then you're missing a huge piece of the economic picture. NO, 707 pilots came to be paid much more than their predecessoras because they were FAR MORE PRODUCTIVE.

And that brings us to a fundamental that has been used in the industry to determine pilot wages: Pilots should be paid relative to the profit that they bring to the company. If they fly a small airplane that brings little revenue, they should not expect to be paid like a pilot that flies a big, fast airplane that brings 50 times the profit. Likewise, a pilot that flies 100 passengers from point A to point B at a given profit margin should expect to be paid MORE THAN a pilot who flies half as many passengers along the same route, even in the unlikely scenario where the profit on each passenger is the same.

Now, I understand that it's only a fundamental principle, and not a rule. Some carriers elect to pay the same for all equipment (UPS immeidately comes to mind) and many other economies emerge (training costs are reduced) or benefits appear (a pilot can be content to fly smaller equipment at the universal pay rate as long as he can live in his hometown, etc.). But the principle remains unchanged. You apparently want to ignore that principle in favor of the COMPANY's goal of making money. NOT pilots making money, but the COMPANY. Well, fine. Then take the "offensive mind-set on how to kick the competiton's rump" one step further and volunteer to fly your Airbus for the published EMB-190 rates. Then I'll know you're truly a man of principles. Otherwise, I'll see that you're simply trying to justify your management's attempt to bring down the pay scale of pilots throughout the industry -- the industry that you share (in addition to airspace) with me.

 

[MW44]

Tony,

Very well put!

 

[TonyC]

You can't bash the JBLU pilots until they have shown that they are in favor of what is going on there. Like Heywood said, they had NO say in this matter. We can only bash them when they continutally vote against unionizing. I think the guys at JBLU will get it right.

My criticism focuses on the disingenuous way in which the pilots can now conveniently disassociate themselves from management, when in all other instances they proclaim the superiority of their team mentality.

They don't have to VOTE against unionizing to show their colors; they have openly bashed unions and the "adversarial" relationship which they KNOW it will bring. Either it's WE all the way, or it's US vs THEM. Pick a story, and stick to it.

As long as they sing WE, WE, WE, they share responsibility.

When they realize it's US versus THEM, then they'll realize there's no strong voice for "US" and it's already an adversarial relationship.

Their hands are not clean.

 

[skirt]

And that brings us to a fundamental that has been used in the industry to determine pilot wages: Pilots should be paid relative to the profit that they bring to the company. If they fly a small airplane that brings little revenue, they should not expect to be paid like a pilot that flies a big, fast airplane that brings 50 times the profit. Likewise, a pilot that flies 100 passengers from point A to point B at a given profit margin should expect to be paid MORE THAN a pilot who flies half as many passengers along the same route, even in the unlikely scenario where the profit on each passenger is the same.

Whether right or wrong, it appears to me that this principle was indeed applied in the EMB-190 payscale compared to the A-320 payscale at JetBlue. The Airbus has 156 seats and the EMB has 100 seats. The EMB pay is very close to 100/156th (2/3) of the A320 pay (however, its interesting to note that the EMB pilot is not working 2/3rds as hard as a A320 pilot).


Skirt