jetblue EMB-190 pay??!!!

[MW44]

Truckdriver,

I don't see how you can compare JBlue's wages with those at Skywest. You are comparing a good mainline carrier compensation package with an entry level regional job. I don't see NWA demanding that their DC-9 pilots make wages comparable to Mesa CRJ-900 payrates. It looks like David sees airline pilots as "blue collar" workers who should be happy to make less money than the city's busdrivers.

 

[TonyC]

TonyC,

We're no different than any other professional pilot out there. We want to fly great airplanes, we want great work rules with competitive pay and spend a lot of time at home with our families. So Tony, before you go looking down your nose, shaking your head like a condescending father, realize that there is a lot of crap going on behind the scenes that you have no idea about.

Well, I wasn't looking down my nose at you, I wasn't shaking my head, and I don't use the condescending approach with my children. If you FELT that, perhaps it's of your own creation. I was simply pointing out the CONTRAST that exists in the way I've seen JetBlue management described in THIS thread and the way we've seen JetBlue management WORSHIPPED in all other threads. In every other aspect that I've seen discussed, whether it be cleaning airplanes so they can turn in 25 minutes or asking the FAA for an extension to the duty limits so you can be home at the end of a long day or choosing a base, or training, or hiring practices, or... well, you name the issue... management got it right, and "WE" are all in it together. NOW, all of a sudden, management is THEY. THEY did it, THEY didn't ask US, WE didn't get a say in it, THEY'll get the message from US eventually... surely you can see the difference, can't you?

I don't think you can have it both ways. If it's WE, WE, WE in every other aspect, then it should be "WE" in this one as well. I'd just like to see someone of the Color Blue to stand up and say "WE have announced EMB-190 rates that should embarrass the professional pilot."

You say you're like every other pilot - you want to fly great airplanes, you want great work rules and pay rates, you want to be home with your family every night (wait, you wanna be a pilot!?!?) - - but, in fact, you are different in a very fundamental way. You, as a group, have been looking down your collective noses at the majority of the industry and have defended the process under which your pay and work rules have been dictated. You have told us how much better it is to NOT have the adversarial relationship required by a Union. In fact, you are all EXPERTS in the folly of unions (even though the majority of you have never been IN one - - I was in the same shoes once upon a time, so I can empathize, really). You have sneered at us because you've got it so much better. Fine. Now, stop the blatant disingenuity and claim responsibility for the pay rates, too.

Tony your comments serve no useful purpose at this point since you don't have a horse in this race. The only thing you share with jetBlue pilots is the same the airspace our airplanes fly in and that's it. BTW it's Mr. "Neeleman" unless you think you're being witty with that overdone "Needleman" thing. I expect better from you based on your overall postings on this forum.

What? Because I'm not a JetBlue pilot I can't comment? Well, I guess we should all just go away and let the JetBlue pilots have their own little private conversation, huh? Don't be so asinine.

My horse in the race is a career in the aviation industry. What people have been trying to tell you all along is that what you do at JetBlue affects the entire rest of the industry. Do you not think that any other airline will look to the rates JetBlue pays EMB-190 pilots when they seek to lower the rates they pay their own pilots. You've as much as admitted the phenomenon when you rationalized the low rates.

By using similar payrates on the 100-seat 190 that are used for 50-70 seat aircraft, this will allow the labor costs to be zeroied out between the EMB-190 and the aircraft it will compete with (not other 100 seat aircraft but CRJs and other 50-70 regional aircraft).

See there. Even you realize that your company is, to borrow the cliche, NOT an island. You are affected by other airlines, and you affect other airlines. (By the way, it's "zeroed.") Indeed, we share much more than just airspace. If you haven't figured out THAT concept, then I strongly disagree with blahshmah's nomination to have you speak with "David and Dave."

Which brings me to the next point. Not enjoying the same familiarity with your management types, I don't feel as comfortable using given names as surnames. I did not intend to misspell Mr. Neeleman's name, nor did I intend to use it as a witticism. After posting, I looked back through the thread to see if I could find the last name used by a reliable JetBlue poster. The most common spelling I found included the "d" so I left it at that. Even so, I attempted to include a comment indicating I was unsure of the spelling, and to apologize in advance. Alas, the 10 minute limit had expired. I humbly apologize for making the mistake, and I hope you are not so offended by the honest mistake that you've missed the message. (You'll have to admit, Neeleman is slightly easier to misspell than Smith. )

Now, back to the quote I've already mentioned... Once more, for clarity:

I'll bet David & Dave based rates with an offensive mind-set on how to kick the competiton's rump. By using similar payrates on the 100-seat 190 that are used for 50-70 seat aircraft, this will allow the labor costs to be zeroied out between the EMB-190 and the aircraft it will compete with (not other 100 seat aircraft but CRJs and other 50-70 regional aircraft).

I don't have time to offer a complete tutorial on the history of the airline industry, or even the aspect of pilots' compensation. Let me just ask you one question: If this mindset had been employed when developing pay rates for the 707 when it was first introduced, how do you think pilots would be paid today? If the primary consideration had been, "Let's pay the pilots the same as pilots on those smaller, slower, propellor-driven things the other guys are flying so we won't be at a labor cost disadvantage," how do you suppose you and I would be paid today? If the goal was, as you say, to pay the 50-70 seat rate on the 100-seat jet, so you could compete, then you're missing a huge piece of the economic picture. NO, 707 pilots came to be paid much more than their predecessoras because they were FAR MORE PRODUCTIVE.

And that brings us to a fundamental that has been used in the industry to determine pilot wages: Pilots should be paid relative to the profit that they bring to the company. If they fly a small airplane that brings little revenue, they should not expect to be paid like a pilot that flies a big, fast airplane that brings 50 times the profit. Likewise, a pilot that flies 100 passengers from point A to point B at a given profit margin should expect to be paid MORE THAN a pilot who flies half as many passengers along the same route, even in the unlikely scenario where the profit on each passenger is the same.

Now, I understand that it's only a fundamental principle, and not a rule. Some carriers elect to pay the same for all equipment (UPS immeidately comes to mind) and many other economies emerge (training costs are reduced) or benefits appear (a pilot can be content to fly smaller equipment at the universal pay rate as long as he can live in his hometown, etc.). But the principle remains unchanged. You apparently want to ignore that principle in favor of the COMPANY's goal of making money. NOT pilots making money, but the COMPANY. Well, fine. Then take the "offensive mind-set on how to kick the competiton's rump" one step further and volunteer to fly your Airbus for the published EMB-190 rates. Then I'll know you're truly a man of principles. Otherwise, I'll see that you're simply trying to justify your management's attempt to bring down the pay scale of pilots throughout the industry -- the industry that you share (in addition to airspace) with me.

 

[MW44]

Tony,

Very well put!

 

[TonyC]

You can't bash the JBLU pilots until they have shown that they are in favor of what is going on there. Like Heywood said, they had NO say in this matter. We can only bash them when they continutally vote against unionizing. I think the guys at JBLU will get it right.

My criticism focuses on the disingenuous way in which the pilots can now conveniently disassociate themselves from management, when in all other instances they proclaim the superiority of their team mentality.

They don't have to VOTE against unionizing to show their colors; they have openly bashed unions and the "adversarial" relationship which they KNOW it will bring. Either it's WE all the way, or it's US vs THEM. Pick a story, and stick to it.

As long as they sing WE, WE, WE, they share responsibility.

When they realize it's US versus THEM, then they'll realize there's no strong voice for "US" and it's already an adversarial relationship.

Their hands are not clean.

 

[skirt]

And that brings us to a fundamental that has been used in the industry to determine pilot wages: Pilots should be paid relative to the profit that they bring to the company. If they fly a small airplane that brings little revenue, they should not expect to be paid like a pilot that flies a big, fast airplane that brings 50 times the profit. Likewise, a pilot that flies 100 passengers from point A to point B at a given profit margin should expect to be paid MORE THAN a pilot who flies half as many passengers along the same route, even in the unlikely scenario where the profit on each passenger is the same.

Whether right or wrong, it appears to me that this principle was indeed applied in the EMB-190 payscale compared to the A-320 payscale at JetBlue. The Airbus has 156 seats and the EMB has 100 seats. The EMB pay is very close to 100/156th (2/3) of the A320 pay (however, its interesting to note that the EMB pilot is not working 2/3rds as hard as a A320 pilot).


Skirt

 

[T-Bags]

Whether right or wrong, it appears to me that this principle was indeed applied in the EMB-190 payscale compared to the A-320 payscale at JetBlue. The Airbus has 156 seats and the EMB has 100 seats. The EMB pay is very close to 100/156th (2/3) of the A320 pay.



Skirt

So i guess a 400 pilot should be getting around 500 an hour? should a pilot on a 30 seat RJ get paid less than 1/3rd the EMB 190 rate? Skirt, I though you of all people would have some understanding of Decision 83. If he had bought 330's instead, I'm pretty sure he'd be saying "well the job of flying a 330 is no differant than flying a 320, so it should pay about the same..." Keep making excuses for your employers, all they care about is your well being right? Congrats Skirt, you left an airline that had a pilot group that cared about pay for even the bottom guy on the seniority list. Go call...

 

[embdrvr]

Like I said earlier, these pay rates are a direct result of the low rates that SKYW has put on paper. Neelman saw what the SKYW guys were going to fly aircraft for and he based his rates on what those rates were. If you want to bash someone for the rates at JBLU lets bash the premeir non-union carrier in this industry and that is SKYW. They have voted against unionizing time and time again. The last time I think less than a third of the pilots voted for a union. The pilot group at SKYW has shown the rest of us that they are not with us as pilots in this profession. I think just as highly of a SKYW pilot as I do of a Freedom pilot.

Truckdriver,
In another thread I asked you why your contract was so pathetic to begin with. After all you didn't have SKYW to blame for that one. Maybe the fact that your airline was PFT didn't help matters much? I noticed you avoided answering the question. Well what's your excuse? Why is your contract so frigging pathetic? Did it ever occur to you that the rest of us might have better contracts if it wasn't for your POS? After all Coex or ExpJet is the largest regional, right?

You're grasping at straws trying to nail Jblu pay to SKYW. Have you considered what the UAir WO'd are flying 170's for? You love to bash SkyWest and blame them for all the problems in the industry. The only reason I can think of for your attitude is:

1. SkyWest rejected you during the interview

2. A SkyWest pilot stole your girlfriend

3. A SkyWest pilot stole your wife

4. All of the above

 

[English]

So i guess a 400 pilot should be getting around 500 an hour? should a pilot on a 30 seat RJ get paid less than 1/3rd the EMB 190 rate? Skirt, I though you of all people would have some understanding of Decision 83. If he had bought 330's instead, I'm pretty sure he'd be saying "well the job of flying a 330 is no differant than flying a 320, so it should pay about the same..." Keep making excuses for your employers, all they care about is your well being right? Congrats Skirt, you left an airline that had a pilot group that cared about pay for even the bottom guy on the seniority list. Go call...

I didn't interpret Skirt's remarks to be making excuses for her employer. Seems to me all she was doing was interpreting how the decision was made to generate these rates. She was pretty neutral in her remarks.

Was it necessary to be rude, T-bags?

 

[Heywood Jiblome]

I was simply pointing out the CONTRAST that exists in the way I've seen JetBlue management described in THIS thread and the way we've seen JetBlue management WORSHIPPED in all other threads. In every other aspect that I've seen discussed, whether it be cleaning airplanes so they can turn in 25 minutes or asking the FAA for an extension to the duty limits so you can be home at the end of a long day or choosing a base, or training, or hiring practices, or... well, you name the issue... management got it right, and "WE" are all in it together. NOW, all of a sudden, management is THEY. THEY did it, THEY didn't ask US, WE didn't get a say in it, THEY'll get the message from US eventually... surely you can see the difference, can't you?

I don't think you can have it both ways. If it's WE, WE, WE in every other aspect, then it should be "WE" in this one as well. I'd just like to see someone of the Color Blue to stand up and say "WE have announced EMB-190 rates that should embarrass the professional pilot."

You say you're like every other pilot - you want to fly great airplanes, you want great work rules and pay rates, you want to be home with your family every night (wait, you wanna be a pilot!?!?) - - but, in fact, you are different in a very fundamental way. You, as a group, have been looking down your collective noses at the majority of the industry and have defended the process under which your pay and work rules have been dictated. You have told us how much better it is to NOT have the adversarial relationship required by a Union. In fact, you are all EXPERTS in the folly of unions (even though the majority of you have never been IN one - - I was in the same shoes once upon a time, so I can empathize, really). You have sneered at us because you've got it so much better. Fine. Now, stop the blatant disingenuity and claim responsibility for the pay rates, too.

Dude,

There has been no contradiction from just about any of the regulars from this board. What you saw was a group of pilots working for a company who were happy with the way things were being handled at their company. What you're seeing now is a group of pilots who are extremely disappointed, angry, embarrassed, (insert adjective) at a major decision that has come down that will effect every pilot working here at JB. Why can't YOU see the difference. We are a young company and the mgmt team you see we so openly worshiped is the same group who is bearing the brunt of criticism now. Now why is that? Maybe because we don't blindly follow the preaching as much as maybe you thing we did. The pay for the airbus has been increased once already in the 4 years, but some 30+%, and there was every indication that it would happen again--that is why there was no major uprising. We were all waiting to see how mgmt would handle the situation. Well, as you can see from the outpouring of emotion from many of the JB faithful, we're not just standing by and watching this happen to us. This is a small snowball this is slowly gaining strength.

Looking down our noses? Come on, Tony. There may have been some some people who would post a lot of the good news that has happened in recent years.....some may have taken offense to that as if they were getting their noses rubbed in it. I hope that's not the case. I think it's been more the fact of just being excited about working at a place they were happy. But this is a subject for another thread (which I think has been beaten to death previously if I'm not mistaken)!!

I'm not sure where your contempt is from. You, for some reason, feel we're talking out both sides of our mouth. I couldn't disagree more. Maybe you need to re-read the posts from the JB folks and perhaps you'll come to a different conclusion. If not, we'll just agree to disagree with how we're handling (beginning to handle) this situation..........

 

[TonyC]

Well, as you can see from the outpouring of emotion from many of the JB faithful, we're not just standing by and watching this happen to us.

Really? Whatcha gonna do? Please reference your contract as you describe the possible courses of action you have at your disposal. Tell me where you have the right to negotiate pay rates for a new airplane on the property. Cuz' I just looked through it, and I didn't see it. What I see is complaining, but I don't see how that's going to amount to more than a hill of beans, or perhaps, given a generous management, a slight adjustment toward reasonableness. I see finger pointing, but apparently y'all haven't even agreed where to point the finger. Clearly, management has not ... what's that phrase y'all use? - - done the right thing with these scales.

I'm not sure where your contempt is from. You, for some reason, feel we're talking out both sides of our mouth. I couldn't disagree more. Maybe you need to re-read the posts from the JB folks and perhaps you'll come to a different conclusion. If not, we'll just agree to disagree with how we're handling (beginning to handle) this situation..........

I do think you're trying to talk out of both sides of your mouth when you proclaim the "WE"-ness of everything else but the "US vs THEM"-ness of this EMB-190 pay scale thing. I HAVE re-read posts on this thread and the other thread dealing with this subject, and I read a lot of disappointment. Nowhere do I see, though, a JetBlue pilot saying "Well, I guess we're just as much to blame for these pay scales as managment is - - we're all on the same team."

I have no contempt for you personally - - that would be impossible in light of the fact I don't know you. I do object, though, to the wringing of the hands that's going on around here by the JetBlue faithful.

It doesn't surprise me that you might disagree, nor does it offend me. That's what this forum is all about, I think.

 

[Heywood Jiblome]

Really? Whatcha gonna do? Please reference your contract as you describe the possible courses of action you have at your disposal. Tell me where you have the right to negotiate pay rates for a new airplane on the property. Cuz' I just looked through it, and I didn't see it. What I see is complaining, but I don't see how that's going to amount to more than a hill of beans, or perhaps, given a generous management, a slight adjustment toward reasonableness. I see finger pointing, but apparently y'all haven't even agreed where to point the finger. Clearly, management has not ... what's that phrase y'all use? - - done the right thing with these scales.

Well, Tony, one of the pitfalls of working at a company without representation is that sometimes its difficult to collectivly voice opinions in a cohesive and coordinated way. A company that is barely 4 years old will go through growing pains, and this is definitely one of them. By the contract you see in front of you, you're right. There's no provision for any course of action should we disagree with their actions. I just can't imagine why they didn't include that in the addendum--perhaps the ALPA website or 1-800 number would have been appropriate for them to include?! I don't think there's any doubt as to where to point the finger....it's just a matter of getting people together and point them at the same time and try and find some sort of resolution.

I do think you're trying to talk out of both sides of your mouth when you proclaim the "WE"-ness of everything else but the "US vs THEM"-ness of this EMB-190 pay scale thing. I HAVE re-read posts on this thread and the other thread dealing with this subject, and I read a lot of disappointment. Nowhere do I see, though, a JetBlue pilot saying "Well, I guess we're just as much to blame for these pay scales as managment is - - we're all on the same team."

I don't feel responsible for the -190 payscale--and I don't see how the pilots should be. We are TOLD what the payscale/workrules are, they are not negotiated. Now say what you want, but there is NO WAY there would ever have been a union on this property before now, and there still might not be. But to sit there and point fingers at the JB pilots and blame us as the reason the rates are so low is assinine. Had we negotiated this rate or if we now sit back and do nothing, then I would assume responsibility. Lets just see how this all plays out before we start blaming the pilots for these rates, shall we....

 

[B6Busdriver]

I don't think you can have it both ways. If it's WE, WE, WE in every other aspect, then it should be "WE" in this one as well. I'd just like to see someone of the Color Blue to stand up and say "WE have announced EMB-190 rates that should embarrass the professional pilot."

Tony,
Come on now. Read through the threads regarding the EMB rates and you will find a number of folks who have said they are embarassed.

In all seriousness, could you or someone else tell us how much you think we should make at our 5 year old company? For the record, I think the EMB rates are poor.

Also, do you think ALPA should have been voted in on day one of operations at JetBlue? An in house union from day one? If not how long?

This is off topic but could you please share with us the struggles of bringing ALPA on the property at FedEx? Why was ALPA decertified at Fed Ex? Wasn't there a failed vote to recertify ALPA?

How long did it take to organize an in-house union at Fed Ex? Did the early guys flying the Falcons organize?

Thanks

 

[G4G5]

I don't think that ALPA is the answer.

If you notice:
The best run airline in the US has their own union. SWA
The largest airline in the US has their own union, AA
The most profitable cargo operation in the US has their own union, UPS.

People can fill all the bandwith they want with BS about the 190 rates. "what were the A320 rates", I remember the initial A320 rates", "sure the 190 rates stink but they will be adjusted when the aircraft arrive"

The bottom line what were the pay increases on the A320? Hummmmm.

ALPA may not be te answer but some sort of union representaton is.

 

[G4G5]

It's called free enterprise, Ash.

The Jetblue pilots in place on the 320's are very happy and the 190 and it's pay structure will make the company competitive for a long time. Any pilot going to work for B6 will go in with both eyes open. They will have the prospect of moving up to a growing 320 fleet at some point, or staying put. In either case, they will make lots of money with stock options and profit sharing.

I don't see unions in there for a long time, if ever.

Really no unions? What about the lack of pay increase on the A320? What about the fact the the senior folks have basicly told mgt it's OK to do what you want with the new folks?

Sooner or later the upgrades will stop coming so quickly and some one is going to be left in the 190 fo seat once the music stops. At that point I would almost gurantee that a union will be part of the Jetblue pilot process.

"If ever"
How many current US airlines have NO union representaion? Care to change that comment?

 

[G4G5]

If that poor guy does not want to be hired then, he can turn it down. Is that so hard to understand? As for anyone else that does not want to come to JetBlue and work for those wages, they can turn it down. Not too hard to figure out. Are we to worry about the guys that are going to get hired in 2011 now? Fearing that they are going to be upset that upgrade it 5 years? What it upgrade at United now? At American? At Delta? At Southwest?

You may want to take a closer look at SWA up grade time. Do you have any clue as to how many 737 they plan to order over the next 5 years? Or how many pilots are going to retire over the next 5 years?

It's not a matter of turning down Jetblue. It's more like, what caliber of individual are we going to attract with these types of wages. Don't be so arrogant, people will turn it down. Or even worse they will take the job and the training and then say, "no thanks"

Believe me, the economy is turning Fedex, Airtran and LUV are all hiring. What you are offering AA Eagle wages. You may want to take a close look at their current hiring minimums. They are not necessary attracting the same level of folks that SWA is currently hiring.

Like Mama always said, " You get what you pay for"