jetblue EMB-190 pay??!!!

[Twotter76]

What so many of the Blue-Aid drinkers here fail to realize is that it doesn't matter that the pay rate will likely end up being higher when the airplane actually flies - just by having those rates NOW you are screwing me and everyone else that flies a jet with less than 100 seats. How do you all expect the rest of us who are desperately trying to raise the bar (or at least hold it up) to be able to do it when you all will happily sell us down the river and say, "well i'll never have to fly it for those rates". I guarantee that I wont either because I am not flying a 100 seat jet for that rate. Period. Are there those that will? Of course. But not me. How do you think this will effect Coex's negotiations? Or Pinnacle's? Do you think it will be helpful? About as helpful as Mesa's POS contract was to ours no doubt. I guess it's true that aviation is cyclical because you guys just brought back the B scale in full force. Thanks alot.

A concerned regional pilot

 

[Kroll]

But hey, they got a Blue Polo shirt

 

[IB6 UB9]

Twotter 76

Definitely the pilots who are responsible here...shame on us. The rates are low, I agree, and I now kneel in front of you while you take my head off. (150+ posts on this thread, yours was the most idiotic, congrats).

 

[B6Busdriver]

B6 Bus Driver: Check out www.ALPA.org. That would be a good place for you guys to start.

FJ

Been there done that got the t-shirt and magazine. NO THANKS!!!!!

 

[vetteracer]

Quote

"just by having those rates NOW you are screwing me and everyone else that flies a jet with less than 100 seats."

JB is a business, and will do everything in it’s power to be competitive and take from it’s competition. That is the way it is in any industry in the world. Pay will increase with time, but if forced by the hand of a union, then JB will suffer the same fate all the legacy carriers are right now. You cannot pilfer a company to death and expect them to make it. When they are weak the vultures of competition will step in and pick the eyes out while you are down and out.

Things are a changing and better now then latter. When the dust blows away and things stable out, it can only go up from here.

Mark

 

[ASH]

it can only go up from here.


Now JBLU can feel better about itself.

 

[JB Bus Drvr]

Some of you (ASH, Twotter, etc.) seem to believe that we as a pilot group at JB went into mgmt. and said that we want these pay rates to screw all the other pilots in the industry. We are as unhappy about this as much if not more than the rest of the group. So should we refuse to work to protest our concerns, or maybe we should picket the JFK terminal. Lets see how many guys would cross the line to jumpseat home or come for our jobs. We will have an effect on mgmt. in due time regarding this issue. In the meantime, it makes no sense to get your undies in a wad at your "house" about problems at my "house". If you think that JB is bringing down your pay rates, then start making those guys who you paid your 2.5% or whatever to, to renegioate your contract and "protect" and improve your salaries. BTW, no matter how bad you flame the JB pilot group, you're still welcome in our jumpseats. All 158 of them.

 

[saltyswede]

don't blame us

We do not vote or have a say in the pay rate. For all of you that do not like the pay take a look at how many ALPA contracts that are being flown at the negotiated rate.

 

[ASH]

I have NEVER said nor implied that we are holding the pilot group resp. for this. I have gone out of my way to specify MGMT. The only way this could come back on your heads, is if you fail to make your voice known to the powers that be. We appreciate that some have mentioned the concern expressed for those who will be following after you. Two out of my four children aspire to be a prof. pilot someday. I'd like to preserve something they can be proud to be a part of.

 

[8vATE]

Oh, and 8vATE, give it up.


The pay rates suck. Your company's business plan seems to be to pay the non-union pilots the lowest possible rate to fly a 100-seat jet.

+++++++++++


Oh I gave it up PILOT141....

Yes the rates are low....
This industry is in shambles..
This is my fourth airline... and third major ...

So I believe I have an idea whats going on...

If you don't like the rates... go someplace else..
Why don't you check out the year 14 longevity rates at USAirways...
oh.. I forgot... those guys are furloughed..

So the EMB guys will make low to mid $80,000......
Then jump to the A320 in year 2 or 3 and make $120-$150k....

If you don't like it... go work at home depot or go back and fly your 141 for uncle sam...

 

[BlueShoe320]

Think again, 8vATE

You are incorrect, 8vATE. A pilot who is hired at JetBlue early next year will not be anywhere near being able to hold A320 Captain in year 2 or 3 of their employment. Using a hypothetical seniority number of 1000, take a look at our A320 delivery schedule and do the math. EMB Captain will come very fast, but A320 Captain will be many years down the road for these folks..........not that you care.

 

[Vladimir Lenin]

screw the rates, what really sucks is the fact that mgmt. is spying on their pilots on a farking message board

WTF?

 

[flx757]

screw the rates, what really sucks is the fact that mgmt. is spying on their pilots on a farking message board

WTF?

Nothing I hate worse than message boards that fark.

 

[:-)]

I haven't read the entire thread, so I apologize if this has already be brought up, But B6 is making a HUGE mistake publicizing this pay rate. By setting the bar at a low level, NOW, years before they actually fly a EMB, they have given their competition a barganing chip to use against their (the competitions) pilots. If I am a DCI manager, (and I'm not) I would demand concessionary bargaining NOW, Comair first, and give my self two years of lower wages before B6 flys it's first small jet. Maybe Neelman is about to sell to Delta.

I can't believe B6 was so flippin STUPID. Man, I must be missin something, why would they give their competition a mechanism to lower wages? Calvin is stumped

Calvin

 

[Joe Peeoznotz]

Man, I must be missin something, why would they give their competition a mechanism to lower wages? Calvin is stumped

Calvin

Check between your ears, Cal.

 

[:-)]

Check between your ears, Cal.

I already checked Joe. But thanks for the tip.

I stand by my comments. B6's competition is salivating about their new bargaining chip. I didn't say it was good, I said that B6 is making a big mistake by giving their competition a tool to negotiate lower rates. You'd better believe that management everywhere is jumping for joy to see JetBlue set the bar so low, and for handicapping themselves by two years to boot. Calvin self-deprecating, not stupid.

aaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggg

Calvin

 

[8vATE]

You are incorrect, 8vATE. A pilot who is hired at JetBlue early next year will not be anywhere near being able to hold A320 Captain in year 2 or 3 of their employment. Using a hypothetical seniority number of 1000, take a look at our A320 delivery schedule and do the math. EMB Captain will come very fast, but A320 Captain will be many years down the road for these folks..........not that you care.

+++++++++++++

Since you know everything BlueShoe..

And since you have decided I don't care..

What's your solution...??

Yes ... the upgrades to the 320 will slow......
An EMB new hire will make more quicker... but probably less overall to a previous 320 only newhire...

Instead of being so accusatory to someone.. why don't you enlighten us all?

 

[Heywood Jiblome]

I already checked Joe. But thanks for the tip.

You'd better believe that management everywhere is jumping for joy to see JetBlue set the bar so low, and for handicapping themselves by two years to boot. Calvin self-deprecating, not stupid.

aaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggg

Calvin

Calvin,

Dude, the -190 is set to be on the property next Aug.....where are you getting 2 years?

 

[BlueShoe320]

My solution?

+++++++++++++

Since you know everything BlueShoe..

And since you have decided I don't care..

What's your solution...??

Yes ... the upgrades to the 320 will slow......
An EMB new hire will make more quicker... but probably less overall to a previous 320 only newhire...

Instead of being so accusatory to someone.. why don't you enlighten us all?[/QUOTE]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

8vATE..........I will apologize for being accusatory. It has been VERY frustrating to watch my fellow JB pilots defending the EMB pay rates (which I believe are indefensible), and my comments have reflected my frustrations with this situation. Sorry.

As for my solution, it is quite simple and quite obvious........do the right thing and pay our EMB pilots a decent wage!

 

[:-)]

Calvin,

Dude, the -190 is set to be on the property next Aug.....where are you getting 2 years?

right here on this here forum. You are supposed to take delivery of your first Embraer in a year. I doubt that Embraer can deliver all of the order in one day, and I believe that I read here that the entire delivery will take two years.

Even if you get them all in one delivery, you still have given your competition a years head start by announcing your scale now.

I'm not defending nor attacking the scale, just questioning the timing of the announcement.

Maybe your management needs do something to bump your stock price? I don't know, but in this "pattern bargaining" industry, I can't figure why you would have announced an unexpectedly low wage for an airplane not yet flying.

I still believe that your competition will use your announcement to negotiate their own pay scales downward, and that obviously makes them leaner and more competitive. If I was Neeleman, I wouldn't want lean and mean competition. I'd rather them be fat and bloated.

I liken this to Lance Armstrong announcing in January that he just gained 10% more speed. The announcement just gives his competition seven months to catch up. If he keeps mum, he comes in with the advantage. Or maybe it should be compared to drawing a red two and a black three in hold-em, showing your cards before the flop, and then raising the guy who just raised you. Unless you're trying to set him up to think that you're an idiot, you just gave away the ante and whatever you spent to stay in the hand.

B6 should have just remained silent. They have no union to deal with, and didn't have to give out the pay scales until much later.

Like I said, I imagine that management from the other carriers considering small jets is just ecstatic over this turn of events.

Back to Calvin before I get too involved here.

Hobbes almost took over.

Later boys,
Calvin

 

[TonyC]

Pilots are complicit

First post in a week - - it was good to get around the world, literally, but I've gotta lotta reading to catch up on.


It appears that most of the ground that I might have trampled on this topic has already been covered, with the exception of this:

How is it that the pilots of JetBlue can on the one hand condemn those outsiders who might level objections to the style of management and the degree of blind followership that this very successful airline enjoys, and then be so quick to divorce themselves of any responsibility in the process that produces such insulting pay rates? It's not us, it's management! Hey, they did it and they didn't even ask us! What happened to "We're all one big happy family, drinking the same juice."? If it's "We think this about cleaning airplanes" and "We think this about lengthening duty limits" why isn't it "We think RJ pay rates should be low."?

My point is this: The process that is now in place is only there because pilots have signed contracts, pilots have made themselves willing pawns in the hands of management, and pilots really have no voice in the process. Or am I wrong? Because if I'm wrong, if pilots DO have a voice, then the pilots are just as much to blame as the management whom so many of you are now daring to accuse of making a mistake, missing the boat, or inviting unionism. (And who was it that said it wasn't really Needleman's fault?!?! Talk about talking out of both sides of the face!! Needleman's a saint if you like everything, and when something goes wrong he obviously had no part?!?! Gimme a break!)

Your hands are not clean.

 

[tkr-toad]

We're all dyin' to know!

OK, all this complainin' and no one has stated what WOULD be a "fair" scale. If you look at other majors, the differential between a 5-yr capt on the biggest to smallest equipment usually falls at between 70-75%. At Independence, the diff (b/w 'bus and CRJ) is 51%. JetBlue stands at 63.6%, midrange within the industry like always (in regards to compensation). So, what does everyone expect? Another $8-10/hr? Someone post a revised 190 scale that would be "adequate", PLEASE! I'm really curious!!!

 

[iflynights]

First of all, I am a Jetblue pilot. I was hired a little over a year ago. I received my DHL package this week and was really let down when I read the fine print. I got a message the night before on my company email that let me know of a new "agreement" that was being sent. I have until October to sign and return this agreement to take advantage of it. I thought it was going to be a raise, and possibly post the EMB rates.

After reading it, I was in shock. We didn't get a raise and the EMB rates were an embarrassment. I read this forum from time to time for fun, but decided to do the improper thing and make a statement. I should upgrade to Captain (A-320) by next spring, but after this new "agreement", I applied to other carriers (Fedex, SWA, and even Virgins email). I realize that management can dictate any pay scale or work rules that they want and there is really nothing we can say. My stock options are "under water" and I don't think they will be worth much when they fully mature (six more years). I think it is time to consider thinking about unionizing. I don't want to bankrupt the company, but I do think we deserve higher pay for our very high productivity. It really bothers me that JB people always talk about their annual earnings. The people that make 160K work about 95 hours a month, and time and a half after 70 means you work alot. The company understaffs and 80+ hours a month is standard. I don't know about you, but I don't think this productivity is sustainable.

In short, the 300+ FOs behind me should be happy. I am looking to move on to a company that doesn't try to pay 72 bucks an hour for a 100 seat jet (capable of 2000+miles). I paid my 50 bucks to Fedex and put in my SWA app as well. I am embarrassed to be working for Jetblue after this EMB debacle and have no trust in management to do "the right thing."

For those that want to work here, it is a good place to work. But you have to realize that you have zero control over your work conditions, pay, etc. Maybe they don't want to extend your five year contract... Before I had trust in management, now I don't. I think they will be a huge carrier and will have thousands of pilots, but I don't think I want to be a part of this.

 

[buzzer]

"Those are in fact the new rates. Read it and weep.__________________
Along for the ride!!!! Woooohoooo...................... "

B6Busdriver,
Read it and weep? Do you realize that you didn't score anything for the profession? You shoot and your own feet and think you are going somewhere? Not sure where the bottom is but whoever didn't think there was a race to the bottom should start looking around. I don't understand how it could be so exciting riding that wave. What makes you think that having such low pilot rates will enable you to beat out the competition? Good management and utilization will have a vastly larger impact. I guess part of good management is making you think that your lower wages are needed...score one point for management and minus one for pilots.

 

[Boeingman]

I am glad to see that at least some of the JB pilots are opening their eyes. Obviously, this forum has zero reliability in an accurate poll, but if one were to assume that some of the comments are "the tip of the iceberg" there are more that feel this way.

I remember the discussion about the extension of the 8/24 rule. My comments always ended that you simply can not trust management. Those comments were always slammed by some of the stout JB pilots as "never happening here....this is a different company...etc. etc." I think this is a perfect example of what I was talking about.

Some have said there was no outcry about the JB A-320 rates when they started flying. A true statement. However, it is an invalid comparison. JB is now a thriving, successful carrier and each and every pilot over there should be very concerned because this will be indicative of the position your management will take in future wage and benefit negotiations. And a company with your stature needs to pay more, have a true retirement plan as well as other perks that your pilots have earned and deserved. You are a important part of your company and those items should not be overlooked.

Unionization the answer???? Hardly. I am not a firm believer in the magic wand of a union. Time and again ALPA has eaten their own. However, at the least, the unions have prevented this type of blatant unilateral actions in which the very least, their was pilot input given. I state again, there will never be a union at JB because rest assured those who try or who are rumored to be a part of a campaign will not get their 5 year contract renewed. I know, I've read about the some of you "old timers" there who scoff at this idea. Maybe so, but history of airline management has shown it;s true colors time and again. And that color is not going to contain Blue.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

And aren't those guys supposed to be taken care of by their unions. You know, the folks they paid a lot of money to look out for them. If you think our payscales are bringing down the industry, then call, write or e-mail your LEC or MEC and tell them to fight for you. I really hope everything works out for all of us, but again, don't flame us because things are going OK.

Typical Union Misunderstanding.

Unions are a resource not a service. One doesn't call their LEC/MEC and tell them to fight. You call your LEC/MEC and ask, what's the best tool/weapon to use and how do I use it? And do you have this tool? Your dues paid for the tool but you gotta pick it up and use it.......

 

[Heywood Jiblome]

First post in a week - - it was good to get around the world, literally, but I've gotta lotta reading to catch up on.


It appears that most of the ground that I might have trampled on this topic has already been covered, with the exception of this:

How is it that the pilots of JetBlue can on the one hand condemn those outsiders who might level objections to the style of management and the degree of blind followership that this very successful airline enjoys, and then be so quick to divorce themselves of any responsibility in the process that produces such insulting pay rates? It's not us, it's management! Hey, they did it and they didn't even ask us! What happened to "We're all one big happy family, drinking the same juice."? If it's "We think this about cleaning airplanes" and "We think this about lengthening duty limits" why isn't it "We think RJ pay rates should be low."?

My point is this: The process that is now in place is only there because pilots have signed contracts, pilots have made themselves willing pawns in the hands of management, and pilots really have no voice in the process. Or am I wrong? Because if I'm wrong, if pilots DO have a voice, then the pilots are just as much to blame as the management whom so many of you are now daring to accuse of making a mistake, missing the boat, or inviting unionism. (And who was it that said it wasn't really Needleman's fault?!?! Talk about talking out of both sides of the face!! Needleman's a saint if you like everything, and when something goes wrong he obviously had no part?!?! Gimme a break!)

Your hands are not clean.

TonyC,

What kind of management are you referring to? What you have to realize is that until now, the management at jetBlue has done well by its employees and fostered a healthy working environment for everyone on the property. There was also a basic understanding that, at the infancy of a company in a very turbulent industry, that certain concessions were needed to ensure the ultimate survivability. However, as the first contract was coming to an end, and with the continued profitability and increasing success here at JB, there was a certain expectation that there would be a competitive rate given to the -190 and possibly another raise for the airbus. There were several in this forum who stated that there were rumors of an announcement at JB coming that would make the -190 announcement seem like chicken feed---well we got it that's for sure, just not in the way we wanted. I truly believe that Dave and David care about the employees here at JB, but this was a devistating mistake on their part.

Yeah, Tony, we signed contracts. So Fuc%ing what. That's how JB, without the benefit of having a collective bargaining agreement, defines the rules and pay at JB. Absent of a union, how would you have us set boundaries by which we work here? Does that mean, right now, that we have very limited power and control over how those rules and pay are manipulated? Yes. Is it frustrating? Yes. As I mentioned before, there are several other issues besides pay that JB pilots have issues with. I think we all were sitting back and waiting for this decision to see if the Mgmt would continue to do the right thing. Well, we may have just gotten our answer. There are a lot of pi$$ed off pilots right now. A senior member of our values committee resigned his position on that committee over this. So what you are seeing in this forum is, indeed, the tip of the iceburg.

We're no different than any other professional pilot out there. We want to fly great airplanes, we want great work rules with competitive pay and spend a lot of time at home with our families. So Tony, before you go looking down your nose, shaking your head like a condescending father, realize that there is a lot of crap going on behind the scenes that you have no idea about.

 

[:-)]

TonyC,

So Tony, before you go looking down your nose, shaking your head like a condescending father, realize that there is a lot of crap going on behind the scenes that you have no idea about.

Looks to me like Tony was only calling you guys out based upon your previous pronouncements of management magnanimity. He wasn't looking down his nose at you.

Calvin, he'd look down his nose, but not Tony.

Hobbes

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

heywood,


My sentiments exactly!!

I fear that this is the first real blunder by David and Dave.

I don't want a union as much as the next guy (yes, I'm a furloughee who's been there done that), but when you compare an in-house union like SWPA to what we've got, kind of makes you wonder??

Still trying to be optimistic...

SWPA buys the Economic and Financial Analysis (E&FA) services of ALPA. As do the American Pilots (APA).

 

[N8Dogg]

So when is the union drive starting JB? Please, Please, Please, fight back!!