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jetblue EMB-190 pay??!!!
- Thread starter Dizel8
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Ponchus pilot
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- Feb 28, 2004
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- 140
Just tell tell me where to sign up. I'll take the job if they offer it to me. People who work there know that their company is growing and they cant ask for much yet. Once the company has grown and healthy they can ask for industry average. At that point if the company refuses they can form a union and get what they want. Thats just history.
Publishers
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Caveman
Grandpa
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Somebody recently posted that ‘regional’ pilots will be flocking to JB now that they’ve posted the rates for the E190. I was bored so instead of studying for my recurrent I crunched a few numbers and compared the pay at my current airline (CMR) to JB’s pay scale to see if it would make sense to try and move over to the Big Blue Kool-Aid Club. I’ll retire in 2018 and I did the math assuming that I’d start in June of 2005 at JB as an off the street new hire E190 Capt. I used current pay scales for both companies and did not factor in new contracts or any cost of living increases. I also didn’t include per diem or anything else. This is as close to an apples to apples comparison as I could make it. Here’s what I found out:
Min guarantee vs min guarantee I would make about $154K more by staying at CMR. Granted CMR is a 75 hour guarantee and JB is only 70 but it’s guaranteed income per month that I am concerned with. Big plus by staying at CMR.
When comparing 83 hour lines the CMR advantage drops to about $7k by the time retirement arrives. Early on I would make slightly more at JB but by about halfway to retirement CMR pay catches up. In other words I’ll make slightly more at JB through 2011 and slightly more at CMR after that with the total difference being about $7K. Very minor advantage by staying at CMR.
When I factored in the other airplanes my 50 seat Capt seat at CMR pays way more than the FO seat in either the E190 or A320 at JB. It isn’t even close no matter how you slice and dice it. So I would have to start at JB as a E190 Capt to even consider moving. A quick upgrade to the left seat of the Airbus would swing the advantage heavily back to JB, but what is a realistic timeframe for that expectation? 5 years? 7? 10? If it were fairly quickly, say 5 years, then it’s a no brainer, JB wins hands down. What about 7 years? Then it’s a closer call and depends on which seat I’ve been sitting in. If I had been a 190 Capt the whole time then JB would still make more sense. But if I had spent any time at all as an FO in the A320 or the E190 then JB quickly loses ground and anything beyond about 5 or 6 years as an upgrade time means that I would probably be better off staying at CMR. If you also consider that a transition to the CRJ70 is very likely before I retire at CMR then the waters get even muddier.
Of course job stability, relative seniority, future potential, etc all play into the picture. Unfortunately my crystal ball is all out of batteries. All I have to go on is what I can document now. While CMR does pay more than any other CRJ operator right now we aren’t in a different league than our peers at other carriers. Even the lowest paid CRJ Captain out there will have to look very closely at the math before they decide to jump ship. Sorry JB, you guys are way off on this one. I won’t take a pay cut to fly an airplane with twice as many seats. Based on that, JB won’t be getting a resume from me. It just doesn’t make sense, yet.
Min guarantee vs min guarantee I would make about $154K more by staying at CMR. Granted CMR is a 75 hour guarantee and JB is only 70 but it’s guaranteed income per month that I am concerned with. Big plus by staying at CMR.
When comparing 83 hour lines the CMR advantage drops to about $7k by the time retirement arrives. Early on I would make slightly more at JB but by about halfway to retirement CMR pay catches up. In other words I’ll make slightly more at JB through 2011 and slightly more at CMR after that with the total difference being about $7K. Very minor advantage by staying at CMR.
When I factored in the other airplanes my 50 seat Capt seat at CMR pays way more than the FO seat in either the E190 or A320 at JB. It isn’t even close no matter how you slice and dice it. So I would have to start at JB as a E190 Capt to even consider moving. A quick upgrade to the left seat of the Airbus would swing the advantage heavily back to JB, but what is a realistic timeframe for that expectation? 5 years? 7? 10? If it were fairly quickly, say 5 years, then it’s a no brainer, JB wins hands down. What about 7 years? Then it’s a closer call and depends on which seat I’ve been sitting in. If I had been a 190 Capt the whole time then JB would still make more sense. But if I had spent any time at all as an FO in the A320 or the E190 then JB quickly loses ground and anything beyond about 5 or 6 years as an upgrade time means that I would probably be better off staying at CMR. If you also consider that a transition to the CRJ70 is very likely before I retire at CMR then the waters get even muddier.
Of course job stability, relative seniority, future potential, etc all play into the picture. Unfortunately my crystal ball is all out of batteries. All I have to go on is what I can document now. While CMR does pay more than any other CRJ operator right now we aren’t in a different league than our peers at other carriers. Even the lowest paid CRJ Captain out there will have to look very closely at the math before they decide to jump ship. Sorry JB, you guys are way off on this one. I won’t take a pay cut to fly an airplane with twice as many seats. Based on that, JB won’t be getting a resume from me. It just doesn’t make sense, yet.
SpeedBird
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 257
Caveman,
I was talking to a fellow reservist yesterday who left FedEx in 1999 to go to work for UAL. He had accomplished a thorough analysis of the pros and cons of remaining with FedEx or going to UAL, much as you have done here. He is now on furlough and is still kicking himself for his "poor" decision. I tried to tell him that he can't blame himself for something like that, since he made his assumptions prior to the events of 9/11 and other economic and competitive upheavals that have since occurred. The conversation ended with the mutual agreement that nobody can predict such things in this industry and expect to be right more than a year or two into the future. You might as well flip a coin and go with that method, at least you could spend more time on studying for your recurrent
I was talking to a fellow reservist yesterday who left FedEx in 1999 to go to work for UAL. He had accomplished a thorough analysis of the pros and cons of remaining with FedEx or going to UAL, much as you have done here. He is now on furlough and is still kicking himself for his "poor" decision. I tried to tell him that he can't blame himself for something like that, since he made his assumptions prior to the events of 9/11 and other economic and competitive upheavals that have since occurred. The conversation ended with the mutual agreement that nobody can predict such things in this industry and expect to be right more than a year or two into the future. You might as well flip a coin and go with that method, at least you could spend more time on studying for your recurrent
Just got back from flying a trip. Upper management if you're listening, everyone I've talked to about this is very, very concerned. We've all used words like, "embarrassed", "dissappointed", "disgusted", "insulted", etc... It should also be noted that nobody I talked to will even be affected by the 190; it's just being rejected on principle. Several guys brought up the dreaded U word. That's right guys, you made a major blunder and now the pilots are bringing up union talk.
It isn't even on the property and it's starting to garner the moniker, "the B-scale jet". This needs to be address asap. Even the flight attendents are talking about it. They think it's unfair that it's going to be staffed at 2 per a/c without any kind of override.
I keep going back to my original statement, if we're going to be the using the 190 to go into new markets and set the fare structure, why can't we charge a sufficient price to afford better compensation for the crews.
I'm all for bringing "humanity back to air travel", but it still remains a privilege and not a right.
It isn't even on the property and it's starting to garner the moniker, "the B-scale jet". This needs to be address asap. Even the flight attendents are talking about it. They think it's unfair that it's going to be staffed at 2 per a/c without any kind of override.
I keep going back to my original statement, if we're going to be the using the 190 to go into new markets and set the fare structure, why can't we charge a sufficient price to afford better compensation for the crews.
I'm all for bringing "humanity back to air travel", but it still remains a privilege and not a right.
Caveman
Grandpa
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- Nov 25, 2001
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- 1,580
As has been said many times, you won't know if you made the right choices until you reach age 60. Until then we do the best we can with the info we have at the moment. How in the world could a UAL/DAL/CAL new hire in 2000 forsee what was about to unfold? Heads or tails is right! For now, though, I think I'll stay right where I am. If the music stops at least I'll have a seat, I hope, maybe......
Lear70
JAFFO
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2003
- Posts
- 7,487
Regional pilots were already "flocking" to jetBlue... they have thousands of applications on file from all areas of the aviation world, the least of which is everyone from Mesa to Mesaba to Chatauqua to Expressjet to Pinnacle and everyone else who is sitting on 4k to 8k+ hours with a couple years in the left seat of a turboprop or jet and where a corporate culture respected (past tense) their employees.
Now jetBlue management has muddied the waters for all of us looking from making a move from a regional to JB... not necessarily for the next year or two where new-hires could see 190 Captain either directly off O.E. or within 60 - 90 DAYS and 320 CA still inside 2 years, but about two years from now when an F/O will be an F/O for a year or more on the 190 and feel basically like he or she has gone from one regional to another.
About that time, the majors will be recalling the last of their furloughed pilots (except probably UA and US), and a lot of regional pilots who are senior, getting 16-18 days off and 800-1000 hours a year of 121 jet PIC will take a hard look at jetBlue and think "It's now 2006, why would I leave job security here when:
1. I'll take a $20,000 to $30,000 pay cut for a year or two then break even another two years before I see A320 CA pay.
2. I'll take a cut in days off for 6 months as a 190 F/O, then again as a 190 CA, then again as a 320 CA... not to mention reserve *YUCK*.
3. No job security: non-union carrier = 5 year buh-bye clause if things turn worse and people start union-hunting.
4. Go from 4 weeks vacation back to two for several years.
5. Lose international pass privileges on mainline regional carrier for self, wife/hubby, kids, and parents... FOREVER (assuming a career at jetBlue).
6. Stock value: the majority of increases and splits that will make jetBlue such a great profit-sharing ESOP employer and is the huge carrot it is right now are going to happen within 5-7 years of IPO (statistically speaking). After that, the stock will be worth good money (assuming a stock performance on-par with SWA's 25-year history), but not the $Millions$ that it will be for the people who have been on since '99 through probably '08. You'd do better taking part of your salary and investing it with a good broker on a moderate-aggressive approach once the stock cools off at JB.
7. The majors will be hiring in the next year (2007) now that they've recalled everyone and I'll be sitting on a ton of time and good contacts at my parent carrier - why look like I'm making a lateral or less-than-lateral move right before they hire?"
Add all that up, and a lot of the experienced regional guys may start avoiding jetBlue when the upgrade times start getting long and the quality of new-hires could decline significantly given the abysmal 190 pay. I would expect it to go up then if the management realized that it was wrong to pay sub-regional rates long-term for their employees, but you never know what your company is going to do...
Bottom Line: look beyond today or this month or this year to the long-term future and see the "big picture". True, there may be something to be said about it being a great place to work NOW, but once you start getting people on long-term "regional pay" at jetBlue's 190 rates, you might see that "happy shiny people" culture start to look a little in need of polishing, not to mention what that pay scale will do long-term to other regional airline's negotiations.
Now jetBlue management has muddied the waters for all of us looking from making a move from a regional to JB... not necessarily for the next year or two where new-hires could see 190 Captain either directly off O.E. or within 60 - 90 DAYS and 320 CA still inside 2 years, but about two years from now when an F/O will be an F/O for a year or more on the 190 and feel basically like he or she has gone from one regional to another.
About that time, the majors will be recalling the last of their furloughed pilots (except probably UA and US), and a lot of regional pilots who are senior, getting 16-18 days off and 800-1000 hours a year of 121 jet PIC will take a hard look at jetBlue and think "It's now 2006, why would I leave job security here when:
1. I'll take a $20,000 to $30,000 pay cut for a year or two then break even another two years before I see A320 CA pay.
2. I'll take a cut in days off for 6 months as a 190 F/O, then again as a 190 CA, then again as a 320 CA... not to mention reserve *YUCK*.
3. No job security: non-union carrier = 5 year buh-bye clause if things turn worse and people start union-hunting.
4. Go from 4 weeks vacation back to two for several years.
5. Lose international pass privileges on mainline regional carrier for self, wife/hubby, kids, and parents... FOREVER (assuming a career at jetBlue).
6. Stock value: the majority of increases and splits that will make jetBlue such a great profit-sharing ESOP employer and is the huge carrot it is right now are going to happen within 5-7 years of IPO (statistically speaking). After that, the stock will be worth good money (assuming a stock performance on-par with SWA's 25-year history), but not the $Millions$ that it will be for the people who have been on since '99 through probably '08. You'd do better taking part of your salary and investing it with a good broker on a moderate-aggressive approach once the stock cools off at JB.
7. The majors will be hiring in the next year (2007) now that they've recalled everyone and I'll be sitting on a ton of time and good contacts at my parent carrier - why look like I'm making a lateral or less-than-lateral move right before they hire?"
Add all that up, and a lot of the experienced regional guys may start avoiding jetBlue when the upgrade times start getting long and the quality of new-hires could decline significantly given the abysmal 190 pay. I would expect it to go up then if the management realized that it was wrong to pay sub-regional rates long-term for their employees, but you never know what your company is going to do...
Bottom Line: look beyond today or this month or this year to the long-term future and see the "big picture". True, there may be something to be said about it being a great place to work NOW, but once you start getting people on long-term "regional pay" at jetBlue's 190 rates, you might see that "happy shiny people" culture start to look a little in need of polishing, not to mention what that pay scale will do long-term to other regional airline's negotiations.
JB Bus Drvr
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 18, 2004
- Posts
- 179
I have to admit it, I think after hitting homeruns, David, Dave, Al, and Dave screwed up this one. I know the people that it will affect haven't even applied, much less than been hired yet. But the pilot group here was expecting more than what was published. There were even Bus Capts. who would have flown the EMB if it meant to be based at home. Far pay and quality of life is all most of us ask for. I don't think any of us expect to be making $200 or $300/hr.flying the 'bus. I'm afraid that within six months, we'll be recieving postcards in the mail. Once that happens, the honeymoon will really be over. Our stock prices will more than likely drop and there goes some of the retirement fund. We, as a pilot group, need to send a message loud and clear to the top that this is unacceptable. If you see them on a flight, in the terminal, crewroom or headquarters, they need to know how we feel. They all talk about values, let's hold them to the values.
As to you non-JB guys, yes we have our problems and we're doing our best to deal with them. The company as a whole is still a pretty good place to work at and your input can only help put things in perspective as to the way your company does business. But remember, you can't compare us to UAL, DAL, AA, or any of the other legacy carriers. In time, we might be there, until then, we'll do our best. If you think things are so bad here, you can make your own job choices. If anything, anybody coming here should go into this organization with open eyes.
As to you non-JB guys, yes we have our problems and we're doing our best to deal with them. The company as a whole is still a pretty good place to work at and your input can only help put things in perspective as to the way your company does business. But remember, you can't compare us to UAL, DAL, AA, or any of the other legacy carriers. In time, we might be there, until then, we'll do our best. If you think things are so bad here, you can make your own job choices. If anything, anybody coming here should go into this organization with open eyes.
JumpJetter
Basking in LUV!
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AAflyer
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Thanx for the vote of confidence, but SWA may not look so good in a few years. It is well known amongst us amateur analysts that Spirit will offer an IPO in the next 24 months. My guess is they will raise two to three hundred million from that IPO. Now if you think Spirit is still going to be a niche player, then you're crystal ball is on the fritz. (Lowecur).
Spirit just announced they are pulling out of DEN. Competition is too strong from DTW on NWA and United. They pulled out of the DEN-FLL market as well as Frontier and TED proved to be too much. Yes Lowecur, I stand by words that they will remain a niche player.
AA
P.S. This actually came from a management smut e magazine. ATA Brief.
but SWA may not look so good in a few years. It is well known amongst us amateur analysts that Spirit will offer an IPO in the next 24 months. My guess is they will raise two to three hundred million from that IPO. Now if you think Spirit is still going to be a niche player, then you're crystal ball is on the fritz. (Lowecur).Spirit just announced they are pulling out of DEN. Competition is too strong from DTW on NWA and United. They pulled out of the DEN-FLL market as well as Frontier and TED proved to be too much. Yes Lowecur, I stand by words that they will remain a niche player.
AA
P.S. This actually came from a management smut e magazine. ATA Brief.
BlueShoe320
New member
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- Jul 7, 2004
- Posts
- 4
Blue Shame.....
I am a JetBlue pilot who occasionally "lurks" here on this forum. I normally feel little inclination to waste my time commenting, but these EMB pay rates have motivated me to speak up.
I have always been proud to fly for JetBlue, but these new EMB 190 pay rates are, well, embarrassing. Although I will never personally have to fly the EMB, it just makes me sick to think that we are going to be paying my fellow pilots such a sub-standard wage to fly a 100 passenger airplane for a profitable 121 carrier. In our POL training, David and Dave say that they want us to "do the right thing". Well, these new EMB pay rates were definitely NOT the right thing to do. We will now have two pilot groups at JetBlue, the Haves and the Have-Nots. Sound familiar????
For all of you non-JB folks, remember that we are non-union, and the pilots had absolutely NO say in this matter. By establishing such a ridiculously low wage for the EMB, JetBlue may have unintentionally hung out a "Please Unionize" sign at the door. I hope I'm wrong............
I am a JetBlue pilot who occasionally "lurks" here on this forum. I normally feel little inclination to waste my time commenting, but these EMB pay rates have motivated me to speak up.
I have always been proud to fly for JetBlue, but these new EMB 190 pay rates are, well, embarrassing. Although I will never personally have to fly the EMB, it just makes me sick to think that we are going to be paying my fellow pilots such a sub-standard wage to fly a 100 passenger airplane for a profitable 121 carrier. In our POL training, David and Dave say that they want us to "do the right thing". Well, these new EMB pay rates were definitely NOT the right thing to do. We will now have two pilot groups at JetBlue, the Haves and the Have-Nots. Sound familiar????
For all of you non-JB folks, remember that we are non-union, and the pilots had absolutely NO say in this matter. By establishing such a ridiculously low wage for the EMB, JetBlue may have unintentionally hung out a "Please Unionize" sign at the door. I hope I'm wrong............
lowecur
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- Sep 14, 2003
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- 2,317
Hey, quit picking on me.AAflyer said:Spirit just announced they are pulling out of DEN. Competition is too strong from DTW on NWA and United. They pulled out of the DEN-FLL market as well as Frontier and TED proved to be too much. Yes Lowecur, I stand by words that they will remain a niche player.
AA
P.S. This actually came from a management smut e magazine. ATA Brief.
Actually I did read that. Did you feel the same way about B6 when they pulled out of ATL? Just a niche player would do something like that, right? Firm order for 35 new Airbus', and an option for 60 more is not a niche player. You should get your resume cleaned up as Arpey may have a bunch of 190's to replace you guys/gals in MD's for $75 per hr.
Have you noticed all the new B6 employees that thought it's about time to put their 2 cents in? I'm sure most of them are unemployed legacy carrier pilot's trying to posture the situation.
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B6Busdriver
pushbutton pusher
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Falconjet
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- Mar 28, 2002
- Posts
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website?
B6 Bus Driver: Check out www.ALPA.org. That would be a good place for you guys to start.
FJ
B6 Bus Driver: Check out www.ALPA.org. That would be a good place for you guys to start.
FJ
Mr Hat
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2003
- Posts
- 483
I wasn't going to say anything on this subject, however I feel I must add my 2 cents. The pay rates are a little low, that is true. But for those of you who are bashing the JetBlue pilots....who's responsible for setting the precident that allowed JB management to come up with such rates? Don't know, I'll be glad to let you in on it. It is the all powerful pilots of the ALPA legacy carriers. YOU guys allowed EMB145's and CL-65s to be flown at the regionals, YOU guys didn't think it would ever be your problem besides who wants to fly such a little thing, YOU guys didn't support your fellow ALPA regional pilots by standing with them and saying "You can't pay a jet pilot turbo prop wages!" Nope, ALPA national just ignored it, they never thought it would enter the cockpit of their lofty 737 so they didn't care...they even signed that Mesa contract which allowed aircraft larger than 50 seats to be flown at the 50 seat rate. Now its on your doorstep and you blame the pilots at JetBlue?!? Look in the Mirror.
USAir pays their EMB170 pilots about the same I make on the E145 AND to cap it all off, they arent flying them AT Usair. At least they could have captured the flying!!
JetBlue on the other hand is flying their own EMB190's, they arent farming it out to the regionals like every other airline is. SO While the pay rates are lower than expected, at least they are being flown at JetBlue by JetBlue pilots. The pay rates will go up sooner or later and the flying is right where it should be! Retaining your flying is almost as important as pay rates, so in that respect they are still ahead of the game.
My App stays in! Call me!
USAir pays their EMB170 pilots about the same I make on the E145 AND to cap it all off, they arent flying them AT Usair. At least they could have captured the flying!!
JetBlue on the other hand is flying their own EMB190's, they arent farming it out to the regionals like every other airline is. SO While the pay rates are lower than expected, at least they are being flown at JetBlue by JetBlue pilots. The pay rates will go up sooner or later and the flying is right where it should be! Retaining your flying is almost as important as pay rates, so in that respect they are still ahead of the game.
My App stays in! Call me!
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thruthemurk
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2003
- Posts
- 224
My Hat,
My hat is off to your good post. I totally agree that ALPA screwed the pooch for the last 15 years on the major/regional issue and is principally responsible for the mess this career finds itself in - including the RJ rates that are out there.
On the other hand, the Jetblue management continually refers to how much better they are going to do things and not follow in the tracks of the legacy carriers. They are going to "do the right thing". The fact that they will screw the 190 rates down this low is playing off of the sh&tty stage that ALPA built instead of using their own principles to determine a rate.
Rather than using their own integrity to establish a fair rate for the pilots of a 100 seat jet, they appear to be going as low as the market will possibly bear.
My hat is off to your good post. I totally agree that ALPA screwed the pooch for the last 15 years on the major/regional issue and is principally responsible for the mess this career finds itself in - including the RJ rates that are out there.
On the other hand, the Jetblue management continually refers to how much better they are going to do things and not follow in the tracks of the legacy carriers. They are going to "do the right thing". The fact that they will screw the 190 rates down this low is playing off of the sh&tty stage that ALPA built instead of using their own principles to determine a rate.
Rather than using their own integrity to establish a fair rate for the pilots of a 100 seat jet, they appear to be going as low as the market will possibly bear.
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