jetblue EMB-190 pay??!!!

[Heavy Set]

Yikes! What does this mean for everyone else?????

I just got back from a trip so this is the first time I have seen the new E190 payrates. My conclusion: I'm disappointed.... Wow, a strong, growing carrier like Jet Blue has UNDERwhelmed everyone with their new rates. I think this will have the most impact on the regional wages - especially those that are being negotiated right now (i.e., Coex). Of course, regionals that will be put under the spotlight soon if bankruptcy ocurrs (i.e., Comair and ASA) will also likely be judged according to this new BENCHMARK.

Jet Blue has now set the pay benchmark for the 100 seaters in the new LCC environment. Anything less than 100 seats will be compared instantly and proclaimed "non-competitive." If I were a regional pilot right now, I'd be really, really upset - this will limit your income potential going forward. Everyone will be compared with the Jet Blue rates - both the A320 on the mainline side and the E190 on the regional/mainline side (i.e., when Delta mainline flies the 100 seaters eventually). You thought USAirways was evil with its Midatlantic E170 rates - this is worse because it sets a benchmark for BOTH the 100 seat rates and regional rates in general... Ouch! People need to understand the negative implications in this case...

So, for all of you Comair and ASA guys out there who may face pay decreases (and any other regional pilot), don't blame Grinstein too much when your rates eventually decline, blame Neeleman at Jet Blue - the bench has now been lowered for EVERYONE... The race to the bottom continues.

 

[AMRCostUnit]

So a pilot makes more than twice as much $$$ as a lawyer or doctor, and all for half as much work.......hhhhmmmmm

Not if you count time away from base (TAFB). That goes to quality of life. The worst schedule on the AA 737 bidsheet has 325 hours TAFB in a month. That equates to $1.28 an hour for an 81.25 hour work week. Sound like a good deal now?

Some might argue that layovers are not working but after 12 years of hotel dwelling that I'd much rather be home. You are in position on the behalf of the company so that is work in my book.

Unit

 

[TheTIC]

This has just depressed me since I saw the post. I thought JB was a major airline, not a commuter. I look at what Air Tran pays for the 717 and Frontier for the 318. (Competitors to the 190 according to Embraer). And it's not even close.



I know how happy people are at SW and have never been at the top of the pay scale, but they have been happy. I thought JB would follow the same way. Have a great company to make up the difference in pay. I was expecting about a $110 top pay for the 190 (given the overtime over 70 hours) compared to the $126 for the 320. Not much for a major airline, but it would be okay given profit sharing etc.



I think the 320 pilots at JB make a low but acceptable pay and will stay with the company and relatively happy. I don't think JB 190 pilots will stay with the company. They will get their 737 type and go to SW or Air Tran or Frontier and then start going to the legacy carriers.



Training costs will eventually kill JB as they train pilots for these other companies.


-TIC

 

[satpak77]

I don't think JB 190 pilots will stay with the company. They will get their 737 type and go to SW or Air Tran or Frontier and then start going to the legacy carriers.-TIC

What legacy carriers are they going to?

UAL - Ch.11 and unknown if will ever come out
US Air - liquidating soon?
AMR - coming back but its a long hard road, very close call to Ch.11 in March 2003
DAL - rumors of Ch.11
CAL - see AMR post, probably best financial shape and youngest fleet (mostly all leased) of all the majors



SWA, Air Tran, Jet Blue represent "tomorrow's airline career", in my opinion. Right or wrong, my personal feeling is that the kid in the Part 141 school who dreams of being a 747-400 Captain to Europe at 250K a year, working 5 days a month, needs to wake up.

A320s/737s/717s from Dallas to New Orleans will be more likely. Thats cool too, the professionals in the audience take pride in doing a good job and accomplishing the mission, regardless of the trip length.

However, to say that people will go to SWA and Air Tran to "fill the resume" and then on to Legacy carriers is simply incorrect.

my 2 cents

 

[TheTIC]

I agree. I was trying to say that first the 190 pilots would go to another 737/320 carrier instead of waiting for a 320 at JB.

Then when the UAL, DAL, NW, AA stuff straightens out people will use the 190s to build time to go to those carriers. It might take a few years, and we might lose one of the big carriers, but they all won't fail.

TIC

 

[satpak77]

cool

yeah I am with you, didn't want to sound counter-your post but my opinion is:

we may actually see UAL AND US Air shut down completely. This is not beyond reason. Re-visit the post-deregulation era with Apple Air, People's Express, Eastern, PSA, etc.

The market determines who will survive, and the market currently favors cheap seats that take me from point A to point B, multiple times a day, with no major hassles.

If the market forces the shutdown (actually thats the most correct way to say it...) of UAL and US Air, the remaining customers must obviously go to the other carriers. AMR, Frontier, Cactus (and Mesa to some extent) will pick up UAL's traffic. If US Air shuts down, we will see DAL, SWA, Air Tran benefit from more east coast customers.

UAL's asia routes would be beneficial to AMR, whose major hubs are mostly a Latin American/Europe focus. Recall that AMR intentionally expanded at MIA in the 80's when Eastern's pulse was almost a flat line.

What SWA is doing on East Coast in 2004 is what AMR did with Eastern in Miami 20+ years ago. Same airline game, different callsigns.

AMR arguably has the most extensive Latin American network, with CAL a close tie.

The only thing largely untapped by SWA/JBLU/Air Tran is the Mexico market. I think (aside from "quick turn" capability, customs, other nightmares) that any major US city (Atlanta, Dallas, New York) has plenty of Mexico traffic. I think serving Mexico City, a major tourist town (Cancun), and a major business center (Guadalajara or Monterrey), is all that is needed to complete the "mexico portfolio."

my 2 cents

see ya

 

[Twotter76]

Well.... I cannot say that I am suprised that these rates got lowballed. But I mean jesus man - before the concessions at my airline my 50 seat slot paid almost that much. Even now its only a difference of a few dollars an hour. While I dont expect these rates to change this seems a major screwup for an airline that is trying to keep unions of the property. I can't say that I ever really had a desire to go to JB but this solidifies it in stone. I am not leaving one regional job for another - again anyway. But what is saddest of all is how many of our fellow pilots at JB are stepping in to defend these rates.

Oh and to the guy who made the remark about going to apply to the legacy carriers instead - maybe you should go talk to your union representative about these rates - oh wait I forgot....

you sir are an a$$.

Twotter76

 

[tkr-toad]

I think I figured it out (or not)

Since all airlines "hire captains" and they need to staff the 190s with initial crews, my guess is that new hires will either wind up in the right seat of the 320 or dual qualified in the 190. It would be unfair for new hire 1 to go the the left seat of a 190 and new hire 2 to the right seat (pay disparity). Sooooo, both hires get trained in both seats and take turns in the seat and make captains pay regardless. So, they're actually making slightly more than an F/O in the 320 but they're locked in for a couple of years (although it will be at least that long for the F/O to upgrade). The 190 F/O rates are there as a placeholder for now. How's THAT for thinking outside the box (or am I crazy)?

 

[ATA73Pilot]

No new-hire will go to straight to the left seat of the Emb-190...unless a bid has closed and no current FO on the Jet Blue seniority list wanted the position (which would be impossible to believe).

Please tell me that Jet Blue does not allow for that idiotic scam known as "Dual-Qualified"!!!!!!!

 

[TheTIC]

Lets say you start with JB this summer. When the 190's arrive, you might be given the chance to go over to capt in the 190s for a two year seat freeze. Combine that with the year you have left in your 320 FO seat freeze. Now you have 3 years in the 190 making $80-$85000 a year. Or you can wait an go to the 320 to make $130-140,000. (no profit sharing,401k, etc).

190 route 320 route capt in 2 320 capt in 3
1st 320FO- $50000 320FO- $50000 $50000
2nd 190C - $80000 320FO $56000 $56000
3rd 190C - $80000 320C- $130000 $60000
4th 190C - $85000 320 C - $130000 $130000
Total $295000 $336000 $296000

Works out about even for the first 4 years, but still safer to wait to upgrade in the 320. The more you fly above 70 the greater the disparity.

TIC

 

[JumpJetter]

??

No new-hire will go to straight to the left seat of the Emb-190...

Why would you say that? I think that's exactly what is gonna happen. I think that's why these rates came in low. In early next year there will probably be a one shot bid run for the guys currently on the Bus; left seat of the EMB take it or leave it right now, or it's closed off for say...2 years (to keep training costs down). Now all new hires go to the left seat of the EMB or spend very short time in the right seat before upgrade or going on the the 320 right seat????? 72K first year is not bad!

...........hhmmmmm........

 

[Draginass]

Needleman knows exactly what he's doing. Does anyone think that the execs at JB didn't think those rates through?

His pilots on the property right now may mumble a little in private, but they WON'T and CAN'T DO SQUAT. They're pretty much insulated from the 190 rates with the promises of an expanding airline. They're getting "theirs" and they're not going to take chances for future new hires. Needleman will continue with the lessons from the CEO special school of overt cheerleading while sending subliminal threats about unionization and any shows of anything but enthusiam from employees.

I'll bet he'll split the pilot list as well in the future to keep down training costs. Of course, JB mainline won't have any say about it, nor will they care. And you know what? Dave will still have guys FLOCKING to JB to fly his 100 seat airplane at ANY rate he wants to set.

 

[General Lee]

He has his own B-scale.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[lowecur]

Needleman knows exactly what he's doing. Does anyone think that the execs at JB didn't think those rates through?

His pilots on the property right now may mumble a little in private, but they WON'T and CAN'T DO SQUAT. They're pretty much insulated from the 190 rates with the promises of an expanding airline. They're getting "theirs" and they're not going to take chances for future new hires. Needleman will continue with the lessons from the CEO special school of overt cheerleading while sending subliminal threats about unionization and any shows of anything but enthusiam from employees.

I'll bet he'll split the pilot list as well in the future to keep down training costs. Of course, JB mainline won't have any say about it, nor will they care. And you know what? Dave will still have guys FLOCKING to JB to fly his 100 seat airplane at ANY rate he wants to set.

Yup, and the guys/gals at WN will do the same thing when the 190 comes on their property......SWAPA and all. Now you know why male tigers eat their young.

 

[MJG]

I'll bet he'll split the pilot list as well in the future to keep down training costs. Of course, JB mainline won't have any say about it, nor will they care. And you know what? Dave will still have guys FLOCKING to JB to fly his 100 seat airplane at ANY rate he wants to set.

I'll second that. However I for one won't leave my seniority at my "regional" airline to go work for the same pay flying bigger equipment at a different airline.

Those of you out there that have your apps in a JB think long and hard about what you're getting into if and when they offer you a job.

The honeymoon at JetBlue is now officially over.

 

[colorado418]

Needleman knows exactly what he's doing. Does anyone think that the execs at JB didn't think those rates through?

His pilots on the property right now may mumble a little in private, but they WON'T and CAN'T DO SQUAT. They're pretty much insulated from the 190 rates with the promises of an expanding airline. They're getting "theirs" and they're not going to take chances for future new hires. Needleman will continue with the lessons from the CEO special school of overt cheerleading while sending subliminal threats about unionization and any shows of anything but enthusiam from employees.

I'll bet he'll split the pilot list as well in the future to keep down training costs. Of course, JB mainline won't have any say about it, nor will they care. And you know what? Dave will still have guys FLOCKING to JB to fly his 100 seat airplane at ANY rate he wants to set.

You underestimate several things:

1) The integrity of David Neeleman.
2) The integrity of Dave Barger.
3) The interests of the pilots currently on the property.
4) The willingness of management to do the right thing.
5) How great the Blue Aid is here.

 

[Flying Freddie]

I'll drink to that!

 

[Oakum_Boy]

ou underestimate several things:

1) The integrity of David Neeleman.
2) The integrity of Dave Barger.
3) The interests of the pilots currently on the property.
4) The willingness of management to do the right thing.
5) How great the Blue Aid is here.

'Cause I got high, 'cause I got high, 'cause I got high.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

The following information comes from the latest BLS (Bureau of Labor Statistics) average hourly wages report (June 2003):


1. Accountant: $23/hr (38 hours/week)

2. Aircraft Mechanic: $25/hr (40 hours/week)

3. Dentist: $36/hr (30 hours/week)

4. Mechanical Engineer: $30/hr (40 hours/week)

5. Fire Fighter: $18/hr (44 hours/week)

6. Lawyer: $44/hr (40 hours/week)

7. Pilot (Airplane): $104/hr (21 hours/week)

8. Physician: $45/hr (40 hours/week)

9. Senior Executive: $45/hr (42 hours/week)

10. Truck Driver: $14/hr (40 hours/week)


I post this information for purposes of comparison with other white & blue collar professions in the US. One can challenge the veracity of the numbers but the point I want to underscore here is the relationship our profession has with other disparate working groups in terms of average hourly pay and work hours. Despite how bad things may seem today you have to wonder how others outside our industry may view our plight.

Just another perspective to consider....

Agree with Moose and far be it from me to question the guberment, but some of those wages seem to be a bit perplexing (low). Senior Executives at $98K a year? That's not even junior executive pay where I come from. Maybe I'm living a charmed life and too oblivious to even know it!

Regarding the integrity of JB management, we're all at the "mercy" of upper management (and government) having integrity. Once that's gone all bets are off. If recent history is any indication, we're all hosed.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

Just talked with the President of Flight Operations here. No new hire will be forced to take the 190. They will have the opportunity to choose their airframe at hiring, however, if they pick the 320 their training date (and seniority) could be significantly delayed. How about them apples??? Those initially choosing the 190 could upgrade rapidly since there will be a fence protecting them to move up to the left seat. The initial bunch of 190 guys/gals will get typed on the aircraft so as to facilitate their upgrade. Hard to believe huh? So not such a bad deal after all!!!