jetBlue Captain Pay?

[FlyDeltasJets]

Nope. You didn't. Although some were debating why you are doing well. I thought I'd join in and point out the largest cost advantage. However, you are right. I wasn't asked. I'm sorry, and will now make a new resolution:

I will not speak unless spoken to while the industry crumbles around us.

You don't feel the tremors yet. You will. There may come a time when you are the highest paid. As we are finding out, those times don't seem to last in today's environment. Don't say you weren't warned.

Thanks for the reminder. I'll keep quiet. Sorry if I bothered you.

 

[Blue Dude]

All right, Delta, since you brought it up - yet again - let's do some basic math.

Check these premises, and let me know if I'm wrong.

JetBlue avg capt pay: 113/hr
JetBlue avg FO pay: 51/hr
JetBlue pay is slightly low to make a point

Song max capt pay: 256/hr
Song max FO pay: 175/hr
Song is maxed out, also to make a point

JetBlue avg crew cost = 164/hr
Song max crew cost = 431/hr

Avg stage length on NY to Fla routes: ~900 nm (1035 sm)
Avg block time: 2+40
Avg speed (block to block) = ~338 kts (388 mph)

JetBlue available seats: 162
Song available seats: 199

JetBlue crew cost per seat mile (CASM) = 164 / (388 * 162) = .261 cents

Song crew cost per seat mile (CASM) = 431 / (388 * 199) = .558 cents

Difference in CASM = .297 cents

Jetblue CASM last quarter: 6.25 cents
Song's wannabe CASM: 7.50 cents

Conclusion: Nope, it's not pilot salaries that do it. It's the entire operation. Less than .30 cents in CASM is not significant enough to change the competitive balance. Song will rise or fall based on other factors.

Now, tell me again how a difference in CASM of .30 cents is a major part of JetBlue's operational advantage? The difference even for your "JetBlue killer" airline is already at least 1.25 cents.

Put another way, Song could pay their pilots nothing at all, and JetBlue would still have a .70 cent CASM advantage, even with fewer seats. Song could pay nothing and JetBlue could pay Song wages, and still JetBlue would have a CASM advantage. That's how insignificant pilot wages are here compared to other operational efficiencies. This will start your slippery slope?

Respond with facts, please, not theories.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Sounds like you guys need a raise!

I could not agree more with your assesment that Song will rise or fall based on other factors. However, I think your example, while very well thought out, is a bit incomplete. You neglected benefits, vacations, workrules, pension, etc that all factor in to a pilot's compensation package. Our mgt is coming after all of those things, and mentioning the lcc's every time they do it. I wish they would ignore those things like we have! I am to blame, because I mentioned none of those things in my original post. You are also correct that pilot salaries are only a part of it. They are, however, a big part. In your example (which neglects the abovementioned items) pilot salaries make up 13% of our anticipated costs, a not insignificant amount. I assure you, our mgt will try to address that cost inequality, and I assure you that your airline will come up in those talks, as it has during the concession talks of almost every other major. I invite you to listen to Leo's speech at the BOD meeting. He certainly does not see pilot costs as the negligable item that you do. I wish he did!

You asked me to use facts...I always try to do so...The below are facts:

When I last checked (they may have changed in the last quarter, our employee salaries and benefit amounted to 4.2 cents per ASM, while yours were 1.87. I know you know how significant a 3 cent CASM advantage is. We flew 142 Billion ASMs last year. The different salaries, benefits, workrules, etc. of the highest paid workgroups (pilots) is obviously a large share of that difference.

I agree that Delta needs to find cost savings elsewhere. I commend B6 on doing so. I also feel that pilot salaries should not be the reason that an airline makes it or breaks it. I sincerely hope that we are not forced to give concessions. However, the fact is when you competitor has more than a 100% advantage in the largest expense category, it is hard to ignore.

You are correct, however. I should not have just mentioned salaries. After all, that's not all our mgt is mentioning!

Thanks for the discussion. I will let you return to your originally scheduled thread.

 

[Skank]

flydelta,
I understand the point you are making, and I appreciate the respectful way you make it. But, we are only a few years from startup, so your criticisms of our pay may be valid some day, but not now. We'll check back with you then.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Skank,

If you are competing in the same environment as we, then my points are very valid.

For the record, I have taken great pains not to criticize. I merely want to point of some pressures and effects created by the new breed of lcc's. I think some of these issues, now in their relative infancy, will end up hurting us all. On this board, at least, I seem to be in the minority.

Thank you for your kind words.

However, I kind of invaded this topic, so I should probably bow out. I'll try to jump in the next time only when the topic is more relevant.

 

[dgs]

This question (along with the one about free airplanes) has been asked and answered so many times before that I decided to answer absurd with absurd. Search the threads and check the financial statements.

While we do have aircraft under warranty, we still spend plenty for MX, including C checks. Here's a trick--we do a LOT of preventative MX to keep surprise failures low and reliability high. The mgmt of this company has a very long term view and realize that an investment in MX now pays huge dividends in the future. We recently had a day with not a single MEL in the entire fleet--not even one TV out. Things get fixed pretty quickly and no, Airbus does not pay the salary of our MX technicians.

 

[717capt]

Did an overnight in Rochester, NY last week. Met with my crew downstairs in the lobby for dinner (AirTran), and there was a jetBlue crew with the same idea, so we all (all 11 of us) decided to go out to dinner together. Went to dinasaur BBQ (anyone thats ever been to Rochester, NY knows what I am talking about).
Never had such a better time with a better bunch of people. The jetBlue Capt. and myself got to talking. I asked him to tell me what all these rumors are about not paying for maintenance, crew training and all the rest of the bunk we hear all the time about jetBlue and their airbus'. The man was very happy to answer all my questions. They do get a good maintenance deal on the airbus when they come new. Just like anyone else who orders new airplanes. We get it with our 717's. Training was provided and paid for by airbus for the first 200 crews or so. Same deal with us for boeing. Free maintenance is just a bunch of baloney. Like any other airline, more maintenance costs for the first airplanes which is offset by not a lot of mtc. costs for the newer aircraft. Makes perfect business sense to me. Anyway if any of those jetblue crewmembers are reading this post, just wanted to tell you guys again what great people you are and I can speak for my entire crew, we had a great time. By the way if anyone is interested, the jetBlue Capt. and myself spilt the check and let the rest of the crew take care of the tip.

 

[learob]

I am so tired of these posts.

"Fly Delta" why dont you go and bitch at South West because our scale is based on theirs. Or even better go whine at America West your ALPA brothers, our 2nd year capt. makes more than their top capt. Or United their top A320 capt makes 145 per hr if you average our base and over time pay we make the same. So please enjoy your pay I think it is great that you make that much but dont rip on me because I dont. Also just to let you know pay is only one part of our total compensation we also have profit sharing and stock options.

 

[FLB717]

WoW, I cant believe as an AirTran (former CMR) guy am saying this but I dont see FlyDeltaJets as being rude. It seems he was just making a point. Ive seen flame posts from him before but in this one he seemed to get the idea of CSM's and FBI's TGIF's etc. He has a point it is not just the pilot pay it is the whole thing. Our 12yr rates are now by my best estimate better than UAL's 737-500 rates and thier CSM are higher than ours! I wanted to make Industry avereage but I didnt think the industry would come to me so fast.

 

[P3-Adub]

FLB717

You hit the nail on the head ! Pay coming down to the level of success in these times.

UAL has made pay the same on the 737 and the A320, obviously coming down to the 737 instead of the other way. This will mean more than the 30% published for a lot of folks. I know, I know, no sympathy here.

A race to the bottom, I don't think that anyone will be uneffected because as pressure mounts due to lower costs, the LCCs will have to do something to maintain the competetive edge that they now enjoy. All points well taken about CSM and how far off the majors are, this will change because they have to just to survive. All a guessing game at this point.

Flydeltajets is just trying to say that the lucrative days are going away and the folks that have been around for some time building the big 6 are going to pay the biggest price. Don't have to like the fact that there are 4 figure furloughs at most and that pay cuts that are are unspeakable in any other industry. I agree with Deltajets. Economy, 9/11, Iraq, and poor management have wrecked the industry and now Walmart is the name of the game. Hey, great idea, we all make what we could at Walmart !

Have fun fellas !