jetBlue Captain Pay?

[Blue Dude]

Just a question for you JB guys. Who and when do "they" determine any "new" pay rates for you guys?

There is no set time that pay and benefits must be revisited. But every year a comprehensive (and anonymous) satisfaction survey is administered across the company by a third party, with the results compiled and sent to department heads for action. Pay and benefits questions are on the survey. If a particular item becomes a leading issue, it must be addressed one way or another, even if it's just to explain why there will be no action. This is exactly how the pay got bumped in 2001 - it was by far the number one concern among pilots that year. Last year, pay wasn't a top concern, so no further action was taken. The 2003 survey was completed a couple of months ago, but the results aren't out yet. They won't be released until a specific plan to deal with the top items is formed, so the results and plan will be released at the same time. We'll see whether pay and benefits is a top item this year. Human nature being what it is, and given the continued success of the company (and the kick in pay at SWA), I'd be willing to bet it's more of a concern this year than last year. Stay tuned.

 

[dgs]

RTFP

I think I'm in the majority when I say I have faith in our leaders.

Kid -- Mo did not say he spoke for you or the majority. He simply stated that he thought he was in the majority, who have faith in our leaders. From my interactions with pilots in my class and pilots I've flown with at JB, I think it is safe to say he is. Even those I've spoken with who think we should get a raise believe Dave and David will make the right decisions when the time comes.

I believe your view is a minority view, and you are welcome to it. Of course, I have to wonder about why your are working for JB. Your posting about hiring at United was sexist and racist. You imply you think you are undercompensated. Your response to Mo indicated that you don't have faith in our leadership. There are about 5,000 guys who have applied to JB who would love to have your job. Do you really feel that way or are you just trying to get everybody fired up and in a flame war with you?

 

[OldTomcat]

'bout time.

I must've read that thing 10 times, thought my near vision was getting worse..

 

[Skank]

Kid Charleflamebait
That is all I have to say!

 

[Intruder One]

To Blue Dude:

No you go back under your rock,a JB post of any kind is always going to stir up controversy just has this one has.If you can't take opposition to anything about JB...too bad.If history holds true for most start ups,one day they will be gone then none of this will matter.

 

[trainerjet]

Re: To Blue Dude:

...too bad.If history holds true for most start ups,one day they will be gone then none of this will matter.

If you really believed this, why did you waste your time and their's by interviewing? Or could it be that your outlook changed because they turned you down? Holding on to that grudge won't do you any good, that's for sure.

 

[Intruder One]

Yes I do believe this but I'm furloughed so I'll take any interview I can get.A job for some length of time is better than nothing.I know its going to be a sad day on these post if they don't make it,hope I'm around to see it.

 

[hngryflyr]

Intrusion

Intruder...everyone here is laughing. You are the poster child for who not to hire...

 

[Intruder One]

You JB guys are more fun to aggravate than working...I'm the one getting a good laugh.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

Management decides. For an example, pre-Sep 11 captains got paid 78 bucks an hour and FOs got 43 for first year pay. When the results of our success held true, management allotted a 32% raise to keep us just under SWA and above most LCCs. Then Sep 11 occurred. The raise was shelved for a couple of months then reinstated in Nov. when it was realized that people were still flying. Get this, they also reinstated it retroactively. This is amazing considering the fact that all JB pilots signed a 5-year contract with already established pay-rates.

My understanding is the pay is always under review, not only for pilots. After the second quarter of last year yielded a 16.8% profit margin, our President of Operations was quoted to say that although it was a great number, there was something wrong with it. It meant one of two things, "We're either overcharging our customers, or we're not paying our people enough". Shortly thereafter, the flight attendants got a raise.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Blue,

That is fantastic to hear. I agree wholeheartedly with your operations guy, and am happy to hear that they are considering steps to rectify that situation. I don't know why the message angers most when it comes from me, but thrills them when it comes from him. It's the same message, just a different messenger.

I hope you guys get a raise to make you higher paid than we are. I mean that. It would help take a lot of pressure of us, and furthermore, you guys deserve it. I have always said (and you can search my threads for proof) that you guys do a great job.

 

[AA717driver]

FlyDeltasJets--You're exactly right. I want someone higher paid than I am(no problem with that now!).

I wish management paid as much attention to the management style of the successful carriers as they do to the pay. AA management keeps earning their title of "Sky ****'s" every day and they wonder why the employees aren't as effecient as SWA or JB.TC

 

[JayDub]

Blue,

That is fantastic to hear. I agree wholeheartedly with your operations guy, and am happy to hear that they are considering steps to rectify that situation. I don't know why the message angers most when it comes from me, but thrills them when it comes from him. It's the same message, just a different messenger.

I hope you guys get a raise to make you higher paid than we are. I mean that. It would help take a lot of pressure of us, and furthermore, you guys deserve it. I have always said (and you can search my threads for proof) that you guys do a great job.

FDJ,

I think you are not getting the same message as me from the posts concerning this topic. I can't speak for anyone other than myself; so take into consideration I write this only on behalf of myself.

First, I think you think your compensation is directly based on what I earn. It seems folks are real quick to point out we are not a major, yet seem to think we are when it comes to our pay scales. You can't have it both ways. You have to realize we are a three-year-old airline and darn lucky to be considered a national that is a "player" in today's market, in such a short amount of time. We are entirely too busy trying to build a successful company to care right now what you are getting paid when your CEO is making many times what ours is. It seems your company's bottom line has a whole lot less to do with my job, and more with the job Leo is doing. Besides, exactly when did it become an unfair advantage to be a start-up in this industry?!?

Second, if your negotiating committee is allowing discussion of a three-year-old national airline's pay scales in their negotiations, they are sad. Any such links between two obviously different airlines should be nipped in the bud immediately.

Third, if your theory of what one airline negotiates affects the others was true, we'd have a far different industry than what we see right now. Let me provide you with three current relevant examples.

First you could kiss jump seat privileges goodbye. Delta didn't have jump seats until '96, so why were other airlines allowed to keep them in their contracts? Heck, JetBlue was started with unlimited jumpseats! I didn't see Delta getting unlimited jumpseats because JetBlue got that.

To cite another example from Delta, they didn't have crew meals for at least one contract until this last one. Why did other airlines still have them in theirs? Shouldn't that have been negotiated out as an "industry standard"?

The last example comes from American Airlines. Did you know if they get back from a trip and won't have enough rest for a trip the next day, they aren't pay protected? I couldn't believe that when my crashpad roomie told me that! Imagine the safety concerns with trying to get back to your base in time to not get screwed!

Again, I think your negotiating committee is merely trying to find excuses in advance. I do think that the pay rates at United, American, etc. can and probably should affect your pay. I think, however, the effect of that is way overstated. It's just done so more people aren't disappointed with the results of a negotiation.

With this said I think Delta is probably the finest full service airline out there. I am never displeased when I get off one of their aircraft. However, I truly believe that if they provided the same level of service as what was common in the 60s and 70s, they would blow AA and UAL away. I really don't think anyone in the industry is thinking like a customer any more. Yes, you'll always have people that want only the cheapest fares. But, what about the Filet Mignon connoisseurs of air travel? It seems to me that no one is even trying to get their business. No one is offering the Morton's of Chicago level of product any more. Just everybody trying to squeeze a nickel of profit while servicing to Burger King standards.

Again, just my thoughts.

Respectfully,

JayDub

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Jaydub,

I never said that my compensation was directly based on what you earn. I did, however, say that the growing popularity of lcc carriers are putting VERY severe pressures on the compensation packages of the major carriers. You are correct, B6 is not big enough yet to have a signifcant effect, but them, coupled with the others (LUV especially) are undoubtably having an effect, and anyone who argues that is either naive or just have not been paying attention.

By way of evidence, I offer you the following quotes:

"The fact is that we are an old, established industry that has evolved pay and
benefits over time that are in the top 5 per cent of corporate America and our
results are in the bottom 1 per cent. That has got to change," Mr Reid told the
Phoenix Sky Harbor International Aviation Conference, Europe was not expected
to be immune to the shake-out.

Fred Reid, Delta's president and chief operating officer, said: "Eighty per
cent of the entire difference [with the low cost carriers] is at the employee
cost line. We have competitive costs in every cost line except for the
employment line."

While it would be nice, as you suggest, to not discuss the lcc's in any future negotiations, I'm afraid as they grow at 20% - 80% per year, we no longer have that luxury. They are our competition, and right now we are losing.

While I don't believe everything Reid says, I (as are all of us) am astute enough to read a 10k, and the lcc's DO get the lion's share of their cost savings from employee wages and benefits. It is all there in black and white, in an SEC filing.

While I thank you for your compliments, I don't agree with your assesment that better service are all it takes to win in this environment. AMR has more legroom than anyone, and they lost $1.3 BILLION dollars this QUARTER! I want our service to improve, and I recognize that this will help the bottom line. But the number one purchase driver (by far) is ticket prices, and right now our costs are higher than the prices offered by the lcc's.

Granted, B6 does a great job, so great in fact that they are able to offer a ticket premium. However, it is still FAR lower than we were able to command before their entrance in the market.

I do commend you on your success. Despite what some say, I am not jealous, as Delta has been my dream since I was a little boy. I would not trade with anyone, and on my 60th birthday, I am convinced that I will have enjoyed a long, prosperous, and enjoyable career with Delta. (well, convinced might be too strong a word! Maybe reasonably sure )

In the meantime, however, the profession is facing pressures. I would have thought that was obvious to everyone. One of the pressures is the compensation, benefit, and workrule packages at the new breed of successful air carriers.

I meant no disrespect, and I was completely honest when I said that I wish you the best, and I hope your pay continues to climb. You guys are certainly on the right track. I simply agree with your VP of ops. You aren't paid enough for the great job you do.