JetBlue: Below average and it's going to stay that way.

[jonjuan]

A buddy of mine at JB refers to it as the "Walmart" of the airline industry. He's applying to Emirates as we speak.

That must mean you work for the "Dollarstore" of the industry. Your family must be So proud.

 

[curtaindriver]

I get a little tired of these guys posting stuff on these sites that isn't even fact.....yet. We may not get the 2.2, my sources say we will in fact get it. Although I agree it doesn't make up for a lot of shortfalls, because it's actually a "look-back" comparison. We are 2.2% behind our peers using 2011 numbers. But, if they do bring us up, it brings our A320 compensation to the average of "like" airlines, with similar aircraft. This will also bring up the 190 to within 10% of the Bus.
Although our retirement is behind, it is not 7% behind. Using other airlines profit sharing paints an inaccurate picture. No other airline guarantees a profit every year......so using guaranteed numbers we are 3% behind our peers in retirement.
Our PTO is used for everything, including sick...vacation, and personal time off. But, to it's credit........it also has a monetary value. No other airline has this. If you have over 100 hours accrued, you can sell back PTO at premium.....(150% base). Also, a 35 credit week of vacation only costs the pilot 24.5 hours.
Our premium pay system of anything above 78 hours is 150% isn't too bad. It's potentially worthless on months there is no open time. I for one would give this up for a base rate raise.
Our rigs are in line with the industry, but our per day rig is controlled incorrectly, in my opinion. It averages 5 hours per day, but should be 5 per day minimum.

We absolutely need a union, and the protections with it.....and also the ability to negotiate. But, some of the posters on this site are the typical never happy, always frustrated, constantly bitching pilots every airline has.

Even with all of the shortfalls at JetBlue, I still enjoy going to work.....and am proud to be here and fly here. Just my opinion.

CD

 

[Fins Up]

I get a little tired of these guys posting stuff on these sites that isn't even fact.....yet. We may not get the 2.2, my sources say we will in fact get it. Although I agree it doesn't make up for a lot of shortfalls, because it's actually a "look-back" comparison. We are 2.2% behind our peers using 2011 numbers. But, if they do bring us up, it brings our A320 compensation to the average of "like" airlines, with similar aircraft. This will also bring up the 190 to within 10% of the Bus.
Although our retirement is behind, it is not 7% behind. Using other airlines profit sharing paints an inaccurate picture. No other airline guarantees a profit every year......so using guaranteed numbers we are 3% behind our peers in retirement.
Our PTO is used for everything, including sick...vacation, and personal time off. But, to it's credit........it also has a monetary value. No other airline has this. If you have over 100 hours accrued, you can sell back PTO at premium.....(150% base). Also, a 35 credit week of vacation only costs the pilot 24.5 hours.
Our premium pay system of anything above 78 hours is 150% isn't too bad. It's potentially worthless on months there is no open time. I for one would give this up for a base rate raise.
Our rigs are in line with the industry, but our per day rig is controlled incorrectly, in my opinion. It averages 5 hours per day, but should be 5 per day minimum.

We absolutely need a union, and the protections with it.....and also the ability to negotiate. But, some of the posters on this site are the typical never happy, always frustrated, constantly bitching pilots every airline has.

Even with all of the shortfalls at JetBlue, I still enjoy going to work.....and am proud to be here and fly here. Just my opinion.

CD

One correction the rig is 5 hours per duty period, not day. That's how you get 3 days worth 10 or 11 hours.

 

[n757st]

i get a little tired of these guys posting stuff on these sites that isn't even fact.....yet. We may not get the 2.2, my sources say we will in fact get it. Although i agree it doesn't make up for a lot of shortfalls, because it's actually a "look-back" comparison. We are 2.2% behind our peers using 2011 numbers. But, if they do bring us up, it brings our a320 compensation to the average of "like" airlines, with similar aircraft. This will also bring up the 190 to within 10% of the bus.
Although our retirement is behind, it is not 7% behind. Using other airlines profit sharing paints an inaccurate picture. No other airline guarantees a profit every year......so using guaranteed numbers we are 3% behind our peers in retirement.
Our pto is used for everything, including sick...vacation, and personal time off. But, to it's credit........it also has a monetary value. No other airline has this. If you have over 100 hours accrued, you can sell back pto at premium.....(150% base). Also, a 35 credit week of vacation only costs the pilot 24.5 hours.
Our premium pay system of anything above 78 hours is 150% isn't too bad. It's potentially worthless on months there is no open time. I for one would give this up for a base rate raise.
Our rigs are in line with the industry, but our per day rig is controlled incorrectly, in my opinion. It averages 5 hours per day, but should be 5 per day minimum.

We absolutely need a union, and the protections with it.....and also the ability to negotiate. But, some of the posters on this site are the typical never happy, always frustrated, constantly bitching pilots every airline has.

Even with all of the shortfalls at jetblue, i still enjoy going to work.....and am proud to be here and fly here. Just my opinion.

Cd

+1.............

 

[linepilot]

I get a little tired of these guys posting stuff on these sites that isn't even fact.....yet. We may not get the 2.2, my sources say we will in fact get it. Although I agree it doesn't make up for a lot of shortfalls, because it's actually a "look-back" comparison. We are 2.2% behind our peers using 2011 numbers. But, if they do bring us up, it brings our A320 compensation to the average of "like" airlines, with similar aircraft. This will also bring up the 190 to within 10% of the Bus.
Although our retirement is behind, it is not 7% behind. Using other airlines profit sharing paints an inaccurate picture. No other airline guarantees a profit every year......so using guaranteed numbers we are 3% behind our peers in retirement.
Our PTO is used for everything, including sick...vacation, and personal time off. But, to it's credit........it also has a monetary value. No other airline has this. If you have over 100 hours accrued, you can sell back PTO at premium.....(150% base). Also, a 35 credit week of vacation only costs the pilot 24.5 hours.
Our premium pay system of anything above 78 hours is 150% isn't too bad. It's potentially worthless on months there is no open time. I for one would give this up for a base rate raise.
Our rigs are in line with the industry, but our per day rig is controlled incorrectly, in my opinion. It averages 5 hours per day, but should be 5 per day minimum.

We absolutely need a union, and the protections with it.....and also the ability to negotiate. But, some of the posters on this site are the typical never happy, always frustrated, constantly bitching pilots every airline has.

Even with all of the shortfalls at JetBlue, I still enjoy going to work.....and am proud to be here and fly here. Just my opinion.

CD

How much further does our health plan set us back? Quite a bit for those of us who need it.

DO NOT come to work at jetblue if your family needs a good health plan.

 

[Lake Alice]

or if you suspect you will need LTD/STD.

 

[B6Busdriver]

I get a little tired of these guys posting stuff on these sites that isn't even fact.....yet. We may not get the 2.2, my sources say we will in fact get it. Although I agree it doesn't make up for a lot of shortfalls, because it's actually a "look-back" comparison. We are 2.2% behind our peers using 2011 numbers. But, if they do bring us up, it brings our A320 compensation to the average of "like" airlines, with similar aircraft. This will also bring up the 190 to within 10% of the Bus.
Although our retirement is behind, it is not 7% behind. Using other airlines profit sharing paints an inaccurate picture. No other airline guarantees a profit every year......so using guaranteed numbers we are 3% behind our peers in retirement.
Our PTO is used for everything, including sick...vacation, and personal time off. But, to it's credit........it also has a monetary value. No other airline has this. If you have over 100 hours accrued, you can sell back PTO at premium.....(150% base). Also, a 35 credit week of vacation only costs the pilot 24.5 hours.
Our premium pay system of anything above 78 hours is 150% isn't too bad. It's potentially worthless on months there is no open time. I for one would give this up for a base rate raise.
Our rigs are in line with the industry, but our per day rig is controlled incorrectly, in my opinion. It averages 5 hours per day, but should be 5 per day minimum.

We absolutely need a union, and the protections with it.....and also the ability to negotiate. But, some of the posters on this site are the typical never happy, always frustrated, constantly bitching pilots every airline has.

Even with all of the shortfalls at JetBlue, I still enjoy going to work.....and am proud to be here and fly here. Just my opinion.

CD

The retirement shortfall IS in fact greater than 3%.

Alaska Airlines is 13.5% plus profit sharing.
Hawaiian's B fund is 17%.
Delta is now 14%.
WN is 9.75% but I'll take that with their wages.

Don't forget that most of these are B funds and require no contribution from the employee. Example, an Alaska Airlines Captain earns $150000. With profit sharing and B contributions this Captain would have received over $30000 in their retirement account last year. I'm not sure if the profit sharing is paid in cash or not. A JetBlue Captain making $150000 would have received $15000 and require the employee to contribute to get the 5% match.

In 2008 the company collaborated with the PCRB to publish a report. That report showed we were 3.5% behind. Obviously the 3.5% does not include additional profit sharing paid out at many of the other carriers. The companies failure to increase our retirement to industry standard has cost me at least $30k plus interest since this report has come out. Plus, if you are out on LTD/STD you receive NO company retirement contributions. At many other carriers you will continue to receive a contribution based on your disability earnings. It's not all bad in Blueville but this is just one of many big issues we have.

 

[curtaindriver]

The retirement shortfall IS in fact greater than 3%.

Alaska Airlines is 13.5% plus profit sharing.
Hawaiian's B fund is 17%.
Delta is now 14%.
WN is 9.75% but I'll take that with their wages.

Don't forget that most of these are B funds and require no contribution from the employee. Example, an Alaska Airlines Captain earns $150000. With profit sharing and B contributions this Captain would have received over $30000 in their retirement account last year. I'm not sure if the profit sharing is paid in cash or not. A JetBlue Captain making $150000 would have received $15000 and require the employee to contribute to get the 5% match.

In 2008 the company collaborated with the PCRB to publish a report. That report showed we were 3.5% behind. Obviously the 3.5% does not include additional profit sharing paid out at many of the other carriers. The companies failure to increase our retirement to industry standard has cost me at least $30k plus interest since this report has come out. Plus, if you are out on LTD/STD you receive NO company retirement contributions. At many other carriers you will continue to receive a contribution based on your disability earnings. It's not all bad in Blueville but this is just one of many big issues we have.

Mostly agree, I would love to see the average retirement plus profit sharing, but am more concerned with just getting our retirement to 13%. Also remember the 2008 report included FedEx and ups, which were "collaborated" away in exchange to exclude spirit frontier and VA.

 

[ajh883s]

Got it. 2.21 % pay increase, retro to Jan 1. Retirement fix still being worked out with committees. Maybe "Summer". Email is out.

 

[curtaindriver]

And my point is made.......stick to the facts guys to help the union drive. We have factual, below industry metrics...i.e: std/ltd....lol, health care, retirement to name a few. But the original thread start was from an ambiguous email sent on fri. So, today in fact, to the company's credit they raised our pay 2.2% retro to Jan 1..........as promised. It was late, it wasnt communicated well, it was threatened to not happen..............but in the end they did the right thing and followed the procedure, just not to the date.



CD

 

[Fins Up]

Fellas, did you read the whole email? You're probably going to have to sign away your premium pay to get the "raise". If that is the case, at my current payrate, and calculating for an 85 hour line, I would take an overall 2% pay cut.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

Fellas, did you read the whole email? You're probably going to have to sign away your premium pay to get the "raise". If that is the case, at my current payrate, and calculating for an 85 hour line, I would take an overall 2% pay cut.

Congratulations on trying to make a negative out of a positive once again! I wish I could collect a dollar for all the "probablies" you guys spin-- I'd be a millionaire!!!

 

[Fins Up]

Fellas, did you read the whole email? You're probably going to have to sign away your premium pay to get the "raise". If that is the case, at my current payrate, and calculating for an 85 hour line, I would take an overall 2% pay cut.

Congratulations on trying to make a negative out of a positive once again! I wish I could collect a dollar for all the "probablies" you guys spin-- I'd be a millionaire!!!

It would be nice if I am wrong, but I doubt it. Maybe premium will only go down to 125%. There probably won't be anything to sign for another month or so anyway so there is plenty of time to debate.

 

[curtaindriver]

Fellas, did you read the whole email? You're probably going to have to sign away your premium pay to get the "raise". If that is the case, at my current payrate, and calculating for an 85 hour line, I would take an overall 2% pay cut.

I doubt it this time around, but definitely feel they are trying to change the process. I don't think they are getting rid of premium, just want to spin a way to stop having us keep up with average. I for one would be willing to get rid of premium for the right base increase.

CD

 

[milehigh6080]

It would be nice if I am wrong, but I doubt it. Maybe premium will only go down to 125%. There probably won't be anything to sign for another month or so anyway so there is plenty of time to debate.

That's not what the email said, and where are you getting the 125% from? The email is clear that we are getting the 2.21% this year and that they want to revisit it and potential adjust the peer set and premium trigger next year. When you don't have the confidence in your argument's effectiveness to stand on its own with factual, real points and attempt to augment those points with made up facts and speculation, it has the opposite effect that you're looking for- it makes your audience assume that all your facts are skewed based on the ones that obviously are.

Here's an example- what is your general opinion of mainstream media's reporting on aviation issues? As professionals in the industry, we know that they get almost everything wrong because they couldn't be bothered to get the real facts straight before their publication deadline. As a result, you immediately discount anything they publish on an aviation related issue because they've demonstrated to you that they're not a reliable source.

I'm as pro union and pro CBA as anyone here, but if you don't have the intellectual honestly to stick to the cold, hard facts you're a detriment to the drive. Made up facts and statitistics only fire up people who are already anxious to vote yes- those people aren't going to win the campaign- changing a no voters mind will do that, and they're turned off by the chicken little routine.

 

[linepilot]

But what happened to my health plan and why am I paying industry leading premiums AND industry leading co-insurance AND industry leading deductibles for a plan that fights me for every single penny?

We have the WORST health plan in the industry.

Paste it on every thread.

This place has ZERO values and a made up culture.

It's all contrived.

 

[Dizel8]

MH,

Whereas you certainly have a point, part of the problem is with the history over the last 12 years AND the lack of a defined process. Now, I thought the peer review was a pretty straight forward piece of business, but it certainly didn't feel that way.

Now we can parse words and statements, but the email in question did leave me with a bit of concern and coupled with again, the lack of a defined path.

It will be interesting to see what the future brings.

 

[milehigh6080]

MH,

Whereas you certainly have a point, part of the problem is with the history over the last 12 years AND the lack of a defined process. Now, I thought the peer review was a pretty straight forward piece of business, but it certainly didn't feel that way.

Now we can parse words and statements, but the email in question did leave me with a bit of concern and coupled with again, the lack of a defined path.

It will be interesting to see what the future brings.

The last 12 years are solid, factual, documented reasons why we should all be chomping at the bit to vote yes for a union and to negotiate a CBA. Let's stick with those facts. Someone who knows the whole story should put together a timeline just like what FedEx has for their history of labor relations. I think that would at least swing a few of the no voters over the right side.

 

[Beechnut]

Ready, Fire, Aim. My apologies!

 

[Fins Up]

That's not what the email said, and where are you getting the 125% from? The email is clear that we are getting the 2.21% this year and that they want to revisit it and potential adjust the peer set and premium trigger next year.

The email said the company is looking at re-defining our peer set. Some of our "peers", one specifically mentioned in the email, have a premium pay of 125%. That is where that comes from.

When you don't have the confidence in your argument's effectiveness to stand on its own with factual, real points and attempt to augment those points with made up facts and speculation, it has the opposite effect that you're looking for- it makes your audience assume that all your facts are skewed based on the ones that obviously are.

It is a fact, as stated in the email, that the company is trying to determine the value of paying us premium pay. Why do you think that is? Are they going to determine that our premium pay is too low? I don't think so.

I'm as pro union and pro CBA as anyone here, but if you don't have the intellectual honestly to stick to the cold, hard facts you're a detriment to the drive. Made up facts and statitistics only fire up people who are already anxious to vote yes- those people aren't going to win the campaign- changing a no voters mind will do that, and they're turned off by the chicken little routine.

I made up no facts. The pay rate increase is set. Hurray for us. What is not set is what will happen with our peer set/industry-standard picture. Also, up for the chopping is our premium pay. It already got reduced once, remember?

I'm glad to hear you're pro-cba. I'm not one of those zealots who beat people over head and tell them how stupid they are if they are not a 'yes' vote (at least I don't think I am). But I have been at this company long enough to see the good and the bad of what leadership is going to offer.

It's just business right? It was just business to:
Do away with stock options for new-hires
Reduce or do away with (I don't remember anymore) the CSPP discount
Raise the premium trigger from 70 to 78, etc.

 

[Dizel8]

So how does 8th year pay compare to everyone else? You can't, cause you'd be a freaking FO everywhere else. Try flying 70 hrs a month without 1.5.

An 8th FO at SWA makes some nice coin.

 

[N311HK]

An 8th FO at SWA makes some nice coin.

I was merely trying to point out to the doom and gloom knuckleheads that at. 8 years seniority you wouldnt be a captain let alone an FO line holder

 

[linepilot]

But isn't it interesting how you can't find a single malcontent at SWA?

Never could.

Genuine culture.

Genuine values.

 

[B6Driver]

Talk to an Airtran pilot and you'll certainly find your malcontent and I'm certain there are others on the SW side but I agree with your point.

 

[crash312]

Congratulations on trying to make a negative out of a positive once again! I wish I could collect a dollar for all the "probablies" you guys spin-- I'd be a millionaire!!!

Or if you had at least industry average retirement you'd be a millionaire when you retire without much effort. But you don't.

 

[Cavity]

But what happened to my health plan and why am I paying industry leading premiums AND industry leading co-insurance AND industry leading deductibles for a plan that fights me for every single penny?

We have the WORST health plan in the industry.

Paste it on every thread.

This place has ZERO values and a made up culture.

It's all contrived.

Think the health plan i$ bad now, wait until 2013/2014.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

The email said the company is looking at re-defining our peer set. Some of our "peers", one specifically mentioned in the email, have a premium pay of 125%. That is where that comes from.



It is a fact, as stated in the email, that the company is trying to determine the value of paying us premium pay. Why do you think that is? Are they going to determine that our premium pay is too low? I don't think so.



I made up no facts. The pay rate increase is set. Hurray for us. What is not set is what will happen with our peer set/industry-standard picture. Also, up for the chopping is our premium pay. It already got reduced once, remember?

I'm glad to hear you're pro-cba. I'm not one of those zealots who beat people over head and tell them how stupid they are if they are not a 'yes' vote (at least I don't think I am). But I have been at this company long enough to see the good and the bad of what leadership is going to offer.

It's just business right? It was just business to:
Do away with stock options for new-hires
Reduce or do away with (I don't remember anymore) the CSPP discount
Raise the premium trigger from 70 to 78, etc.

I love it! The premium trigger went into effect the same time as the 30% raise. Do the math, you're still ahead. Always with the negative Moriarity!!! When our airline is 40 years old like SWA, maybe we can start comparing apples with apples. We are an infant in the airline industry and are just getting our sea legs. You chose to come to an upstart, that is what we are. My friends who decided to fly American and a host of other legacies have had disrupted lives these last 12 years-- I'll take my not so perfect 12 years here over what my friends have experienced any day. As we move forward, there will be challenges, but you'll see for the most part, Jetblue has provided most of what we can ask for. If you truly want industry standards, then maybe the 190 guys/gals can then take a pay cut too...

 

[Fins Up]

That 30% raise brought us up from a serious deficit. Since we were the launch customer for the 190, there was no peer set. Other airlines set their 190 rates based on our original crappy scale. But go ahead and tell our 190 guys they're overpaid if you want.

 

[milehigh6080]

If you truly want industry standards, then maybe the 190 guys/gals can then take a pay cut too...

No thank you. The 190 is not a regional jet, it's very similar to a DC-9 or 717 which have always been mainline jets. Just because every other jet that Embraer makes is an RJ, that doesn't make the 190 an RJ by association.

Boeing 717 - Max takeoff weight, 110,000, Typical seating 106-117
E190- Max takeoff weight 114,000, Typical seating 94-114
(As posted on Wikipedia)

Jetblue 5 yr FO/8 yr CA E190 = $82 / $136
Airtran 5 yr FO/8 yr CA 717 = $93 / $151

I know you feel superior to we small, single aisle, narrow body jet 190 pilots in your giant, er slightly less small, single aisle, narrow body A320, but I'll pass on the pay cut, thanks.

 

[Singlecoil]

So how would you get raises if every airline went to an industry standard system?
Answer: nobody would.
By using "industry standard" you are guaranteeing that you will always be below the industry average since you look in the past to determine what that is. Kind of like separate but equal is inherently unequal. Industry average will always result in below average, unless everyone does it and all rates end up being the same for eternity.