JetBlue: Below average and it's going to stay that way.

[furlough-boy]

Ready, Fire, Aim. My apologies!

You are an embarrassment to your profession.

 

[Smarta$$]

No thank you. The 190 is not a regional jet, it's very similar to a DC-9 or 717 which have always been mainline jets. Just because every other jet that Embraer makes is an RJ, that doesn't make the 190 an RJ by association.

Boeing 717 - Max takeoff weight, 110,000, Typical seating 106-117
E190- Max takeoff weight 114,000, Typical seating 94-114
(As posted on Wikipedia)

Jetblue 5 yr FO/8 yr CA E190 = $82 / $136
Airtran 5 yr FO/8 yr CA 717 = $93 / $151

I know you feel superior to we small, single aisle, narrow body jet 190 pilots in your giant, er slightly less small, single aisle, narrow body A320, but I'll pass on the pay cut, thanks.

Priceless! Thank you

 

[curtaindriver]

That's not what the email said, and where are you getting the 125% from? The email is clear that we are getting the 2.21% this year and that they want to revisit it and potential adjust the peer set and premium trigger next year. When you don't have the confidence in your argument's effectiveness to stand on its own with factual, real points and attempt to augment those points with made up facts and speculation, it has the opposite effect that you're looking for- it makes your audience assume that all your facts are skewed based on the ones that obviously are.

Here's an example- what is your general opinion of mainstream media's reporting on aviation issues? As professionals in the industry, we know that they get almost everything wrong because they couldn't be bothered to get the real facts straight before their publication deadline. As a result, you immediately discount anything they publish on an aviation related issue because they've demonstrated to you that they're not a reliable source.

I'm as pro union and pro CBA as anyone here, but if you don't have the intellectual honestly to stick to the cold, hard facts you're a detriment to the drive. Made up facts and statitistics only fire up people who are already anxious to vote yes- those people aren't going to win the campaign- changing a no voters mind will do that, and they're turned off by the chicken little routine.

Excellent post, and is exactly what I'm trying to say.

CD

 

[BeachBummer]

No thank you. The 190 is not a regional jet, it's very similar to a DC-9 or 717 which have always been mainline jets. Just because every other jet that Embraer makes is an RJ, that doesn't make the 190 an RJ by association.

Boeing 717 - Max takeoff weight, 110,000, Typical seating 106-117
E190- Max takeoff weight 114,000, Typical seating 94-114
(As posted on Wikipedia)

Jetblue 5 yr FO/8 yr CA E190 = $82 / $136
Airtran 5 yr FO/8 yr CA 717 = $93 / $151

I know you feel superior to we small, single aisle, narrow body jet 190 pilots in your giant, er slightly less small, single aisle, narrow body A320, but I'll pass on the pay cut, thanks.

Had Rob M in the js a while back and he was sure to state that we were the highest paid 190 drivers in the world. I asked him if we replaced EMB with a B, DC, MD, or an A would we still be the highest paid? Same seats same legs same same... short conversation.

 

[milehigh6080]

Had Rob M in the js a while back and he was sure to state that we were the highest paid 190 drivers in the world. I asked him if we replaced EMB with a B, DC, MD, or an A would we still be the highest paid? Same seats same legs same same... short conversation.

Haha, nice. I don't doubt that ELT would try to make that argument, it's just up to us to not buy into it. I sure don't. It's a mainline jet and it deserves mainline pay.

 

[Dizel8]

BB,

Eventually you have to grow up and recognize that we are now an established major airline, no longer a start up. No, we haven't been around as long as the really big boys with the really big toys, but we are now amongst the top ten in the US and even figure quite well in the world rankings as far as ASM's, we far outpaced some flag carriers.

It's time to wear big boy pants!

 

[B6Busdriver]

Congratulations on trying to make a negative out of a positive once again! I wish I could collect a dollar for all the "probablies" you guys spin-- I'd be a millionaire!!!

Hi Troll!

 

[Floatplane]

I love it! The premium trigger went into effect the same time as the 30% raise. Do the math, you're still ahead. Always with the negative Moriarity!!! When our airline is 40 years old like SWA, maybe we can start comparing apples with apples. We are an infant in the airline industry and are just getting our sea legs. You chose to come to an upstart, that is what we are. My friends who decided to fly American and a host of other legacies have had disrupted lives these last 12 years-- I'll take my not so perfect 12 years here over what my friends have experienced any day. As we move forward, there will be challenges, but you'll see for the most part, Jetblue has provided most of what we can ask for. If you truly want industry standards, then maybe the 190 guys/gals can then take a pay cut too...

Typical I've got mine attitude!

 

[Lake Alice]

And you guys don't have to fly with this dousche.

 

[$$$4nothin]

Math is easy and universal. Here are the numbers regarding getting rid of our premium pay.

Jetblue wants to determine the value of our premium pay? 14% is what Jetblue said our premium pay cost them in the payroll budget.

The flight ops budget is "X". 14% of "X" is premium pay. If you want to get rid of premium pay... seems to me that should be pretty easy to figure out.

Assuming the flight ops budget is all annual compensation, then $290 million x 2.2% = $296.38 million. That means 14% of X = roughly $41.5 million.

If you want to get rid of "Premium Pay"... jetBlue owes the pilot group $41.5 Million in hourly pay rate increases. This translates into a $18/hour pay raise.

As a 2nd year 190 FO for example this would make your pay rate with the 2.21% COLA we just received about $81.76/hour. So long story short I will gladly sign away premium pay for an $18/hour base rate raise. Makeing this base rate would also stop our flica wh@re$ from flying 140 hours of credit every month and create more jobs at JB.

I dont want to work 90-100 hours a month and a higher base rate would help me maximize my money for a lot less work. Why the company would even consider this I don't know because it would cost them alot of money and less productivity. I am imagineing that they are going to come out with something closer to a $10/hour pay raise. As this will save them alot of money however I also believe doing this is going to push a lot of the guys that are on the fence towards the Pro-Union side.

I keep hearing all of you guys bashing the new guys for being so happy and not wanting a union. As a new guy that hangs out with a lot of new guys but flys with a lot of OLD guys. The old(seniority based) and military guys are the guys that you all need to convince, not the new pilots on property that freshly remember what it can be like to get beat daily by the company they work for.

 

[Smarta$$]

I don't think the company is actually considering getting rid of premium pay. They are saying the things they are saying to manage expectations and make us THINK that we are getting such a great deal right now.

For those pilots that had listened to the last several RM conference calls, 80% of the time spent discussing the pay review was spent telling us why would probably not get the pay increase... Yet we got it. This is managements way of making us fear not getting our piddly raise, so that when we get our piddly little raise, we are relieved and not demanding more. It is expectations management 101. Same with this talk about putting a value on our premium pay.

Here is the important part, and something our PVC and more vocal pilot callers need to HAMMER home during conference calls and PVC-management meetings... OUR PREMIUM PAY SYSTEM IS ACTUALLY ALMOST THE SAME AS EVERY OTHER MAJOR AIRLINE! Most major airline pilots get a 70-80 hour line, and then during the busy months, pick up open time that is automatically paid at 150-200%. In fact, many guys bid a min credit line of 70 hours, and then start getting premium pay from opentime from 70 hours, instead of our 78 hour trigger....

During slow months at other airlines, there is no open time, just the same as we have low bid devisors and no opentime during slow months.

Hell, even my last regional airline had 150% for all opentime pickups.... Guys made a killing if they wanted to fly hard....


PVC and vocal pilots, make the legitimate case that our premium pay system is no more costly or valuable than that other of our peers, just implimented slightly differently!!!!

As for adding Spirit and Virgin America to our peer set... Sure, as soon as JetBlue can start offering 3 year upgrades again... Until then, it is apples and oranges...

Smarta$$

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Sorry to disturb...

When do you expect JB to start hiring again and what are the general mins.

More specifically, what are the turbine PIC requirements (if any).

thanks.

 

[Flyby1206]

Sorry to disturb...

When do you expect JB to start hiring again and what are the general mins.

More specifically, what are the turbine PIC requirements (if any).

thanks.

Hiring is projected to resume in the fall, and there are currently about 150 pilots in the pool who have passed the interview and just waiting on class dates. My guess would be new interviews to happen Oct-Nov timeframe for Spring 2013 classdates at the earliest. No PIC turbine required, probably about 3000TT minimum, 5000TT competitive.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Thanks, Flyby!


Do you see a lot of low to nothing turbine PIC getting hired though?

 

[B6Busdriver]

Thanks, Flyby!


Do you see a lot of low to nothing turbine PIC getting hired though?

More and more every class.

 

[Flyby1206]

Thanks, Flyby!


Do you see a lot of low to nothing turbine PIC getting hired though?

More in the recent hiring spree than previously, and I am sure others will chime in on their theories behind this. The ones who dont have any PIC turbine DO seem to have several thousand hours in the right seat of a 121 jet operation.

 

[BeachBummer]

BB,

Eventually you have to grow up and recognize that we are now an established major airline, no longer a start up. No, we haven't been around as long as the really big boys with the really big toys, but we are now amongst the top ten in the US and even figure quite well in the world rankings as far as ASM's, we far outpaced some flag carriers.

It's time to wear big boy pants!

If you mean "you" as in our managment needs to step up and wear some big boy pants? yes, I totally agree with your statment.

If you meant "you" as in we as an airline need to man up and wear some big boy pants, I hear ya there too.

If you mean "you" as in I need some big boy pants... ya lost me, I like shorts and flops.

If you meant "you" BB as in BlueBayou... well... no comment.

 

[StarChecker]

As we move forward, there will be challenges, but you'll see for the most part, Jetblue has provided most of what we can ask for.

What you can "ask for" with your fully funded military pension, government health insurance, and top 5% seniority number and what the rest of us "ask for" with the worst health insurance and retirement in the industry, are quite different.

And no, that's not hyperbole, we have the worst health insurance and retirement in the industry. If not for many other reasons, just the fact that both can be changed or completely terminated as per your PEA. But you and 1193 other myopic fools bought the line that a PEA that allows the company to terminate a retirement plan is better than a negotiated CBA.

But I get it. You're good. You upgraded in a few months and hold your nice productive turns while the bottom 50% languish on reserve or the right seat with no prospect of upgrading with our paltry retirement numbers and makes plans to head elsewhere.

But anyway....CONGRATS. You got your average! After all, the 2.21% was to adjust our pay to AVERAGE.

Congrats!....YOU'RE MEDIOCRE!....

 

[chrayo]

No thank you. The 190 is not a regional jet, it's very similar to a DC-9 or 717 which have always been mainline jets. Just because every other jet that Embraer makes is an RJ, that doesn't make the 190 an RJ by association.

Boeing 717 - Max takeoff weight, 110,000, Typical seating 106-117
E190- Max takeoff weight 114,000, Typical seating 94-114
(As posted on Wikipedia)

Jetblue 5 yr FO/8 yr CA E190 = $82 / $136
Airtran 5 yr FO/8 yr CA 717 = $93 / $151

I know you feel superior to we small, single aisle, narrow body jet 190 pilots in your giant, er slightly less small, single aisle, narrow body A320, but I'll pass on the pay cut, thanks.

717 MTOW is 120,000....FWIW?

 

[shon7]

And no, that's not hyperbole, we have the worst health insurance and retirement in the industry. If not for many other reasons, just the fact that both can be changed or completely terminated as per your PEA. But you and 1193 other myopic fools bought the line that a PEA that allows the company to terminate a retirement plan is better than a negotiated CBA.

if things are so bad you can always leave. unfortunately, losers like you come with their tongues watering and then stay on and moan and groan about how the world has done them wrong. Every B6 pilot has had an option not to sign the PEA or not to renew. If you really want to take a stand lets see you do that.

 

[J32driver]

if things are so bad you can always leave. unfortunately, losers like you come with their tongues watering and then stay on and moan and groan about how the world has done them wrong. Every B6 pilot has had an option not to sign the PEA or not to renew. If you really want to take a stand lets see you do that.

Every time I read a post like this, all I can think is "abused wife syndrome". You get beat and you are convinced it is your fault. It is just sad.

 

[B6Busdriver]

if things are so bad you can always leave. unfortunately, losers like you come with their tongues watering and then stay on and moan and groan about how the world has done them wrong. Every B6 pilot has had an option not to sign the PEA or not to renew. If you really want to take a stand lets see you do that.

You are becoming more annoying than instuctordude. At least he's funny, you are just annoying.

 

[GuppyPuppy]

if things are so bad you can always leave. unfortunately, losers like you come with their tongues watering and then stay on and moan and groan about how the world has done them wrong. Every B6 pilot has had an option not to sign the PEA or not to renew. If you really want to take a stand lets see you do that.

Wow!

Signing our PEA's??? Really????

Our PEA's have absolutely nothing to do with our retirement or health insurance, being kicked to COBRA for 18 months while on LTD (and then offered NO insurance after 5 years. Our PEA's have very little to do with our work rules.

When I was hired I was told that PAY AND BENEFITS would be at Southwest -2%. I was OK with that. The FACT is that we are nowhere near Southwest in ANY category...pay, work rules, retirement, insurance, LTD...

So, after being here over 8 years and hoping for things to get better (with a CBA) your advice is to just leave? At some point in your career (relative seniority, age and responsibilites considered) you are basically married to the company who employs you. Like it or not, that's the way it is in the US airline industry. I am married to this company and am trying to make it a better place to work for ALL pilots. I have voted for ALPA twice and will do it again.

All you "It's better than MESA" crowd just astound me! This is a major airline that is larger than Airtran, Frontier and Alaska. But you guys are just happy to wear the gaigh blue shirt. Get closer to age 50 and tell me what you think. And consider that you don't have tri-care or military retirement either (BlueBayou...this means you!).

And for those of you who really think that we are "only 3%" behind in our retirement....let me put this in perspective for you. In 2010 an Alaska pilot making $100k/yr got an additional $22,500 from the company put into their retirement account. A JB pilot who made $100k in 2010 got $5,000 put into his retirement account (another $5,000 IF the pilot put in $5,000) of his own money. That Alaska pilot got more than 100% more put into his retirement fund than the JB pilot got. Still think you are only 3% behind average? The company wants to believe that you're only 3% behind because that doesn't sound so bad now does it? The truth is that we are much worse off.

GP

 

[Fins Up]

if things are so bad you can always leave. unfortunately, losers like you come with their tongues watering and then stay on and moan and groan about how the world has done them wrong. Every B6 pilot has had an option not to sign the PEA or not to renew. If you really want to take a stand lets see you do that.

Many of us, myself included, did not sign the latest pea amendment. Signing or not signing doesn't fix our retirement, LOL/LTD, etc problems.

 

[shon7]

Wow!
When I was hired I was told that PAY AND BENEFITS would be at Southwest -2%. I was OK with that. The FACT is that we are nowhere near Southwest in ANY category...pay, work rules, retirement, insurance, LTD...GP

the FACT is that the market has changed DRASTICALLY in the last 8 years. Of course guys like you couldnt care less since it goes against the very entitlement mentality at the core of your being.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Christ, I pray you don't fly for us....

 

[pilotyip]

Is anyone happy to have one of the higher paid jobs in the US? with more days off than almost any job in the US? and the ability to go home and not have to take the job home with you. Is everyone really that unhappy?

 

[J32driver]

the FACT is that the market has changed DRASTICALLY in the last 8 years. Of course guys like you couldnt care less since it goes against the very entitlement mentality at the core of your being.

I've got a six pack that says this clown is furloughed Eastie who is now a Forest Hills cubicle dweller.

 

[tomgoodman]

Is everyone really that unhappy?

Probably not, but remember the old pilot axiom: "Never admit you have a good deal, or someone might bid in above you."

 

[shon7]

I've got a six pack that says this clown is furloughed Eastie who is now a Forest Hills cubicle dweller.

wow. thats one great comeback. Of course i would not expect more of an affirmative action welfare monger who flew a bunch of regional jets (supposedly)